fixing a stand inside a bottle

[hamilton]

Hello all:

 

I'm not sure if this is the right area for this question, but....moderator's I'm happy if you move this wherever you think it belongs.

 

I'm at the final stages of building Amati's Hannah in a bottle and am nearing the point where I'll have to actually put the tiny vessel inside the bottle....

 

The instructions say to first fix the stand inside the bottle and then manoeuvre the ship onto the stand....my first instinct was to use CA to install the stand in the bottle, but I was nervous about crystalization of the CA vapours on the interior glass....I had thought of using a 5-minute epoxy, but wondered if this would produce the same effect?

 

Can anyone tell me if the epoxy is the way to go, or if there is another adhesive I should use that won't have any adverse effects on the glass? 

 

Thanks very much in advance! And happy modelling to all

hamilton

Edited August 31, 2015 by hamilton

[Major]

Since I did not face the problem myself, can't speak from own experience, but I have seen that guy behind Tigersbay blog tested few glues during his SiB builds and was happy with the effect slow setting CA gave him.

http://s.kahn.lyshanpress.com/blog/blog1.php

I think I have seen it mentioned in Golden Yacht build, but have a look yourself .

And since you didn't start your log for Hannah, how about posting some pics here, just so we can see how you get on? I;d love to see your progress .

Regards
Tom

[Dan Vadas]

What's wrong with a high-strength PVA? It'll dry quickly enough but still give you time for adjustments if needed, it'll bond more reliably than CA, and it won't have any effect on the glass.

 

  Danny

[Major]

Not sure if I'd use PVA to stick anything to glass...

[hamilton]

Thanks for the tip Danny! In the end I went for 5-minute epoxy (the stand is now in the bottle with one of the kit-supplied tools waiting for the epoxy to cure). It's a bit late for a build log, but I'll try to document the insertion of the Hannah into the bottle - if the moderators have no objection, I'll just do it here.

 

Here's photo 1 (all I have for now) - and apologies off the bat for the poor quality - it's hard to get focus through the glass.

 

 

Taking a cue from the fellow with the detailed log mentioned in another thread, I taped a cut out pattern of the stand on the bottle-stand underneath the bottle to mark the position of the stand, using the Hannah outside the bottle to gauge where it should be. I then wrapped a bit of double-sided tape around the applicator tool provided with the kit pressed it onto the top of the stand, laid some epoxy on the bottom, and gently eased it through the mouth of the bottle and into place. Some finessing was required to get the stand in the right position. I'm now going to leave the whole thing in there overnight and then (once the epoxy is properly cured over 24 hours) ease the tool free of the stand and draw it out.....

 

The next step will be to figure out how to get the ship onto the stand.....as mentioned elsewhere (by me and others) the mouth of the bottle is very small and it will be quite a squeeze getting the Hannah in - at least that part corresponding to the quarterdeck area aft, where she's tallest (it's the height rather than the breadth that's the issue, and the masts and sails do not help here - though at least they're somewhat pliable....) I'll update this once the next stage is complete......

hamilton

[Major]

Hamilton, maybe you could just rename thread and ask nicely moderators to move it to build log section? There still is some bits left to do I guess .

I'm sure nobody would mind if you post a picture of your progress so far .

All the best.
Tom

[hamilton]

Hi Tom:

 

Well there's not actually that much left to document, and I don't have many photos of the ship in process and none of the various construction stages.....as I say I'll try to get some good photos of the ship going into the bottle and to document that....

 

The keen-eyed among you will notice that I replaced the brass pins on the stand with some rough-hewn walnut strips shaped for the hull to rest upon. I thought this would make mounting the hull in the bottle a bit easier - someone (either here or in another place) compared putting the hull on the pins to a carnival game.....not really in the mood for that sort of finagling.......I'm going to have a try at getting her into the bottle this evening, so check for an update (good or bad) later. 

hamilton

[Major]

.Yeah, keep us updated. I just now play with hull construction

[Dan Vadas]

Not sure if I'd use PVA to stick anything to glass...

 

 

Neither would I. I actually mis-read the question, thought he meant what glue to use to fix the boat to the stand.

 

Epoxy is definitely the way to go for fixing the stand to the glass .

 

I'll try to document the insertion of the Hannah into the bottle - if the moderators have no objection, I'll just do it here

 

 

Here is fine Hamilton. There isn't really another forum that would suit any better.

 

  Danny

[hamilton]

Thanks Danny:

 

And on that note, I'll add an update on the Hannah build....I began this evening with the intention of fixing the Hannah on the stand (already in the bottle). I spent a bit of time considering the approach. I then made an initial attempt to manoeuvre the ship into the bottle. It is a snug fit, but with a little gentle pressure it actually goes in ok. I only moved the hull about half way into the bottle neck before retreating. Satisfied that I could actually get the thing in, I decided to make a little tool to apply the adhesive (I chose 5-minute epoxy again - more on this choice in a minute) to the stand. This turned out to be the only successful part of my evening's work.....Here is the tool - the filed down end of a bamboo skewer onto which I glued a short piece of 10mm x 1.5mm lime. I chamfered the end of the lime strip to ease the application. Here's the tool and here's my test of its reach and action on the stand - exciting stuff here, people!

 

 

 

 

Once satisfied with the tools utility, I mixed up some epoxy dipped the tool in and applied it on the stand....it was a bit messy and the glass distorts the view to the point where I was unsure whether I was getting an even coat on the stand. I took a look down the bottle from the mouth and all seemed well, so I decided to go for it.

 

In the build log I'm using as reference, the modeller mentioned using double-sided tape to attach one of the kit-supplied tools to the hull of the ship and thus be able to manipulate it in the bottle and onto the stand. The kit-supplied instructions mention making a rope sling using another tool supplied with the kit. I have not tried this (I might later) but decided to go with the other modeller's technique. 

 

Unfortunately, the only double-sided tape I have is wall mounting tape, which is very thick, though also strong enough to get a good leverage on the hull using the tool attached running alongside the stem. But in order not to have the tape stick in the rigging, I had to run it along the turn of the bilge from the bows to about 1/4 of the way back. What I did not notice until I drew the ship out again in failure was that the tape rose up from the hull enough to make it impossible to sit the forward part of the hull on the stand......mistake number 1.

 

Anyway, blissfully unaware of this, I proceeded. On my first attempt, I accidentally wound one of the out threads around the bottom of the hull forward (it didn't get epoxied, thank god! but it did make it impossible to raise the masts) - mistake number 2. Still not noticing the tape issue, I pulled the hull out of the bottle just enough to untangle the out thread. I then began manoeuvring the hull back into the bottle. Here she is on the way in:

 

 

At this point I had to drop my camera and focus all my attention on getting her onto the stand.....I actually wish I had kept the posts, which would have helped me to lock the hull onto the stand. The "V" stand I made is adequate, but when slathered in epoxy the hull slid around quite a bit and the tool, despite it's strong hold on the hull, did not allow much in the way of precise control. I did take a moment to pull the out threads and saw the masts come up quite gloriously (it was a momentary elation) before I finally noticed that the forward end of the hull was not sitting on the stand at all, and that it would never adhere to it as long as the tape was keeping the hull from contacting the stand. I drew the ship out planning on repositioning the tape, which is when I noticed:

 

Mistake number 3 - the boom had detached from the main mast

Mistake number 4 - the port side boom sheet had snapped

Mistake number 5 - the main gaff had also become detached from the main mast

Mistake number 6 - the aft port side canon had become unglued.

Mistake number 7 - the line that runs through the foremast topsail had snapped on the starboard side

 

Sheesh!! I decided I needed to step away from the modelling table for a bit (and write this post) so I could decompress and build up some positive energy to continue....I think that tonight I will simply do the following:

 

1. reattach the canon

2. reattach (with stronger thread) the boom and gaff

3. re-tie the port side boom sheet

 

Tomorrow I'll tackle the topsail rigging (again!) and see about getting it into the bottle....

 

At this point (just to make a long post even longer), I'm a little concerned about the stand....it's epoxied in the bottle, so I imagine it's there for good. But now the lifts on the stand are slathered in epoxy.....I'm considering using slow-acting CA now to set the hull on the stand (despite my earlier misgivings about using it inside the bottle). But I may go with the epoxy again - except holding the thing straight while the epoxy sets will be a test of zen-like patience....on the other hand, will today's epoxy on the stand give me trouble when I go to try to put the boat on the stand at a later time? If anyone has insight here I would greatly appreciate it......

 

Long and the short - I can see that this is doable (which is important), but the goal line just receded significantly after today's modelling debacles......

 

And on and on...

hamilton

[Major]

Joys of modelling eh?

Author of Tigersbay was using CA and he was happy with the result, so maybe it will be way to go? I wouldn't like to get any misting on the bottle as it isn't clear already, but from other side - it will be much easier to wipe inside with CA debonder than get rid of set epoxy from pins inside.

Glad to see you were able to get her inside - some logs I have seen mention that it's almost impossbile, the required pressure is high etc. So we have another ship that was modelled correctly .

I see you have used sails provided with the kit. If you don't mind, could you post a picture of the ship with masts up? It is for purely selfish purpose of making my mind up, as I don't know if I should storm the bedroom with scissors and attack the bedsheets (exposing myself to the anger of admiral at the same time )

Another question, have you already finished bottle stopper? Did you stain it or just left as it were? And what colour scheme have you chosen for crest? I couldn't make my mind up yesterday, there is fair amount of pics on google, all look simillar but every one is different. And I didn't like too much how it was painted @ Tigersbay, it seems unfinished to me.

You're nearly there mate. Press on regardless! Good luck!

[hamilton]

Hi Tom:

 

Yes at least she went in! I've not given up yet, though I still have to re-do the topsail rigging before trying again....

 

Here's a shot with the sails set - they look pretty overdone (with the dark seams and reef bands) but again, I'm assuming this will help them show a little bit once in the bottle and for better or worse, I'm going to use them.....I'm not sure I could make a set of sails at this scale - the material would need to be very thin to do it justice and very difficult to sew for the average 10-fingered person. Anyway, hope this helps...

 

 

hamilton

[Major]

Thank you for the picture.

But what do you mean by saying you've not given up yet?? You can't give up at the finish line mate . If you're too mad now to work on it, put it aside for some time, but do make it to the end . Fingers crossed

[hamilton]

Haha! By "give up" I mean just toss the ship into the bottle in a heap and leave it like that as a "ship-wreck-in-a-bottle" - it's pretty high concept and I don't think many people would get it immediately, but it might be my last option if all else fails.....I won't be trying to mount it again tonight, but am going to stick with redoing the topsail....

 

You might also have noticed that I decided not to rig the fore course - I felt that too much of the deck work would be masked by this large sail, so I opted to go for a rig as depicted on the bottle with topsail only......anyhow....more later

hamilton

[DSiemens]

You got the right answer as far as glue.  I've tried using super glue in bottles and it will fog the glass.  I still use it on the lines once their pulled tight but I leave the bottle open with opening up for at least five minutes so the fumes can escape.  Good idea on the fore coarse.  I like sails on sibs but they do often mask the hard work put into the hull.  Leaving one or two off helps with that.  Great work so far.  I look forward to seeing her in the bottle.  

[hamilton]

So I've now put Hannah in the bottle.....I'm waiting until after dinner (and possibly a beer) tomorrow before risking the mast raising....As I mentioned before, I made a "V" stand to replace the pins and while this seemed like a good idea (easier to mount?) in practice I kind of wish I'd stayed with the pins....there was a lot of uncertainty as to whether the hull was going to stay on the "V" stand, especially since my pre-emptive attempt to mount the hull last time, which resulted in quite a bit of 5-minute epoxy curing on the stand....But let me begin from the beginning....

 

I think I mentioned before that when I put the Hannah in the bottle last time, the boom and main gaff came off, and the thread that makes up the fore course yard and topsail yard braces and fixes the fore topsail to the yards also snapped....I repaired these parts of the vessel, using stronger upholstery thread to attach the boom and gaff and reinforcing the rigging where the topsail attaches to the yards. Here's a shot of where I started tonight, followed by a shot of the topsail repositioned on the yards....not the prettiest work I've ever done....

 

 

 

I then did a trial run to see if it would still go in nicely - a tight squeeze, but not too bad.....

 

 

My source build log talked about attaching the boat hook tool with double sided tape, but there were no photos provided to show how he did it.....here's my inference....also, I don't think you need double-sided tape - I think I could probably have used my Tamiya masking tape and it would have worked fine.....

 

 

I can hear you thinking how precarious it looks....at it was!! Getting it into the bottle was a struggle. I had to keep my hands incredibly steady and kind of cajole the hull up onto the "v" stand, on which I had applied a liberal amount of 5-minute epoxy using a chamfered piece of scrap wood glued to a bamboo skewer. Then it was a nerve-wracking process of keeping entirely still to prevent the hull from slipping around (which would not have happened with the pin stand) on the stand as the glue set.....even if I could move to see the thing from different angles, the bottle really prevents a clear view of its interior except from the front and the top....I really wanted to get a forward or stern view to make sure all was well. And because I was seated high while doing this, I couldn't crouch down to confirm whether the hull was connecting with the stand at all three lifts I had made....All I could do was concentrate hard on not moving, while angling the tool in such a way as to press the hull down as much as possible while not having it collapse or slide off.....A very tense series of minutes....

 

In the end, though, it stuck....not only that, but the shifting and balancing had loosened the tape, so I was able to easily extract the positioning tool. Now the Hannah is in the bottle, the outlines are draped out of the mouth, and tomorrow, we'll see what happens when I pull on them.....There's still a 50/50 chance it's not going to work....but I guess that's always the case, so it's hardly worth mentioning....here's where it stands as of now.

 

 

hamilton

Edited September 20, 2015 by hamilton

[gjdale]

Congratulations on getting through that nerve-wracking process Hamilton. I'm sure the rest will work out just fine from here.

[hamilton]

Thanks Grant!

 

But unfortunately, it has not gone so smoothly...The masts are up, the out lines are glued and severed and the bottle will soon be sealed, but the results are not what I had hoped.....it's not a ship-wreck-in-a-bottle, but it definitely leaves quite a bit to be desired, especially next to the many amazing examples on this forum! I'm almost embarrassed to show my results, but I believe the bad should be shown alongside the good, since people can learn as much from a negative example as from a positive one.....

 

I don't have the photos loaded yet, so I'll leave it there for now, and update this "log" later......

hamilton

[Major]

Hold on mate, we have something wrong here.

As long as it was fun build/you've learnt something new/enjoyed it - don't be (almost) embarrassed! I have seen quite a few logs that were unfinished, modellers complained that kit is impossible to build thanks to brass parts, too big guns and few other bits. You've done it, that's all that matters. If you don't like this one, you just might be too hard on yourself. I know that well - I always complain that I could have done something much better, but we always learn .

Your input to my log was very valuable and helped a lot too!

I will have to catch up on my Hannah - not much left to do, but somehow can't get to it. Wanted to finish her by this weekend, but spend time at seaside and with family, so didn't even touch the box. Oh well, maybe next weekend .

Edited September 21, 2015 by Major

[hamilton]

Thanks for the encouraging words Tom! I'll admit I was being a bit dramatic....a habit. I guess I've been used to each build being closer to the vision I have in my head than the last one that when I hit a hiccup like this it feels like backsliding.....I'm still happy with it all things considered...pics later - and good luck on yours - I'll be following closely

hamilton

[hamilton]

OK - as promised, here are the results. Tom - I did have fun making this one.....up to a point. Last night and today I found myself promising I would never build another SiB....Building the hull was a lot of fun and very rewarding, but the rigging (which on a larger scale model I usually find very enjoyable) was trying to say the least. Also - I think if I were to do it again (a big if) I would make sure that the bottle I used was much thinner and clearer than the one Amati provided (though in all other respects, Amati's kit was very nicely presented - except maybe the sails, which I should probably have also replaced).

 

Anyways, after letting the epoxy cure overnight, I couldn't resist having a go at a mast raising after breakfast and a coffee (instead of a beer, which was also delayed tonight in favour of wine). I gently pulled on the out lines and it seemed that something was stuck....the main mast wanted to come up but the fore mast was being very stubborn. I realized that the rigging must have been tangled up on the mast somehow (or on one of the yards) but because the glass is so thick I couldn't clearly see what was happening....here's a shot of what I was looking at....

 

 

It turned out that the fore course yard had managed to get on the wrong side of one of the outlines. I used the same tool I had used to put the hull in the bottle to work the yard free - it was a bit of a tricky business, but eventually the yard went round the right way....

 

Then things got a bit worse. I pulled on the out lines further but things were still sticky.....Something was caught that I couldn't see at all. Then I noticed that the foremast itself was bent (likely from my trying to pull the mast up with the out line - I didn't think I was hauling on it that hard!). I couldn't imagine how I was going to straighten it and then also figure out where the snag was.....as I was mulling all this over, I decided to try to use two of the tools together to gently correct the mast. And then disaster struck - the outline that hauls up the main mast snapped off at the hole in the bow sprit where it threads through....I guess it had seen too much action and had had enough.....That ended up being the end of all my correction work. I very quickly dabbed some CA on the remaining out line, set the sails as well as I could without the whole thing collapsing and called it done......Here are the results. Again - I'm proud of my efforts, though not of the results.....

 

 

 

 

In closing, there are a few things to note

 

1. Building SiB's is hard. Having done this once, I have incredible respect for those who focus on this field of model building. In a year or two a might think otherwise, but for now, I think I would rather watch and enjoy the efforts of others than try to emulate them! Having spent a night with America I can honestly say I'm happy to be back working at a scale more suited to my temperament and abilities!

 

2. I think I can see a few rookie mistakes in my own process. First and foremost is being impatient to see it in the bottle. When folding the model down to put it in the bottle, I did not really pay much mind to where things were lying. Then, when it was compressed going in the mouth of the bottle and I was (however gently) working it through, things got muddled up. The first time I had it in the bottle, things came up fine - and if it had stuck on the stand that time and the main sail hadn't come off it would have worked out pretty nice. The second time, I think I just wanted to finish - never a good place to be at any stage of any kind of modelling. Another issue was not trusting some of my instincts to begin with - specifically an early concern I had about visibility and the Amati-supplied bottle. There are enough antique shops in town here that I probably could have found something better, but I didn't bother.....I think getting something with a slightly wider mouth and slightly thinner glass would have helped to produce a better result....

 

3. As with all models I've made, I've learned something. Perhaps I won't build another SiB, perhaps I will. But I am glad I built one - I think everyone should try it, if only to learn what your limits are!!

 

Thanks for comments and likes as usual and bye for now

hamilton

 

[gjdale]

Looks pretty darn good from where I'm sitting Hamilton! Congratulations on completing a tricky build. Like all of us, your best model will be your next one!

[IgorSky]

Hi Hamilton!

It seems that it was not easy to do, but you won!

Congrats!

 

Best Regards!

Igor.

[mtaylor]

Looks darn good, Hamilton.   You've expanded your skill, had some fun.. what's so bad about that?  If you do decide to do another SIB, what you learned on this one will help you with the next.

[Dan Vadas]

Looks better than my SiB so far .

 

If the main thing you're unhappy with is the bottle itself, why not cut the bottom out of it, pull the ship out, repair it, and put it in a better bottle?

 

OK, OK, I know - you're done and finished .

 

  Danny

[hamilton]

Arghhh! Danny - I feel like this will be a great idea for me to entertain for the next several (dozen) years.....it will have the company of many other ideas consigned to a similar fate.....but if you issue this as a challenge, then......well that's another story......

 

Thanks all for your positive comments - they give a lot of heart to a sad modeller. Bye for now and I'll continue to enjoy all of your work

hamilton

[Dan Vadas]

but if you issue this as a challenge, then......

 

 

I didn't intend it that way Hamilton, but it's an idea .

 

Good luck with your future work, and as Grant said "Like all of us, your best model will be your next one!"

 

  Danny

[DSiemens]

Great job Hamilton she really does look nice.  Despite the problems it's still better than my first one.  Don't take the Amati kit as a good representation on ship in bottle building in general.  I've known many very skilled builders like yourself that have had a really hard time with this kit.  The opening is way to small for the size of the model and your right the clarity of the glass isn't that great.  The clarity of yous actually looks worse than most I've seen.  They really didn't give you a great bottle.  Any how scratch sib building is not as hard as this kit makes it out to be.  

Edited October 1, 2015 by DSiemens

[hamilton]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Danny and Daniel - I may try another one of these in the future, but for now, it's nice to be working at a larger scale again!

hamilton