REVENGE by John Maguire - Amati/Victory Models - build in the Cougar Mountain Shipyard

[donrobinson]

Hi John, she is looking good. I use a combination of weldbond and medium ca. I'll put the weldbond(white glue) on the edges then dots of medium ca and white glue on the surface. Doing this requires less clamping, and I have always had good results.

[GuntherMT]

I use regular old yellow wood glue 90% of the time (TiteBond).  For things where I'm worried about the glue showing later I'll use white PVA like Weldbond.

 

The only time I use CA is for attaching metal to wood, as I don't like how CA reacts with, and soaks into the wood and is very difficult to remove if it's visible.

 

Also, PVA (wood glue or white glue) can be removed by soaking the joint in water, or alcohol, whereas CA requires the use of a debonder or acetone.

[DenPink]

Hi John

 

Re glue, Don is correct , I use Titebond wood glue on the edges of each plank with a spot of thick CA on the frames.

I also use bulldog clips to hold the planks together, at the stern and bow I use curved forceps on the planks this is for first planking only ( you have used filler blocks at the bow so you cannot use them ) .

 

 

Denis

[mtaylor]

No CA here... only PVA or epoxy.  PVA for wood and epoxy for metal to wood.   CA does bizarre things to my sinuses.

[John Maguire]

Wow, great comments dear friends - thank you VERY much.

 

Googling doesn't enable me to tell the difference between weldbond, tight-bond, and who knows whatever else bond. 

 

I have been using one of them so far - which ever it is. Why?

 

Home Depot & Lowes are pretty close to my morning visit to Starbucks. Why do you like a specific PVA? Which one would you use for the seams?

 

Again, thank you for being patient with my numb-suckle questions about things you knew so long ago that you have forgotten when you learned .  .  .  .

 

I keep going back and enjoying the updates to your builds.

 

Respectfully,

John

[DenPink]

Hi John

Re what type of wood glue to use, that is a hard question to answer.

 

Some model builders like plain old PVA glue from the local hardware store.

Others like Titebond as it is very strong and dries faster than other PVA glues, but that is just my opinion and that may not count.

 

Some model builders use a combination of PVA and CA.

There is no set rule on what you should or should not use.

In the end it is what works for you and you alone.

 

Sorry I cannot help you more than that apart from just take your time and have fun.

Remember a mistake is not a failure it is just a learning curve to make us better builders of models.

 

All the best.

Denis.

[GuntherMT]

Weld-bond is a general purpose white PVA which will dry clear.  Tite-Bond is a yellow wood glue PVA.  I find that I can get a quicker and stronger 'set' using the tite-bond, so I use it the vast majority of the time, while the Weld-bond requires a much longer clamping time in my experience.  Either should give a good result though.

 

I even use normal Elmers white school glue for a lot of things, like making the 50/50 glue/water mixture for securing rigging and rope coils.  It will also work fine for securing wood to wood.

 

In the places that I do use CA for securing metal to wood, a good epoxy like Mark suggests is the best choice, but make sure you never want to remove it!  I generally avoid epoxy just because I don't like dealing with the mixing and smell.

[John Maguire]

Dear friends,

 

As a result of your comments and opinions I now have a clear impression of what the various types of PVA represent. So easy yet obscure for a novice - thank you very much.

 

I have splined the first strake above the garboard and can without humility say that I am pleased with  my "fit". If it continues to be logical, I'll continue to spline. In spite of how long I studied the line off technique I still failed to forecast what was going to happen. Look at the weird shape of the first strake above the garboard. As a result of that I "think" I'll merge the first two zones and go back to individual "zones" when I get above that. As I get higher up the hull it appears to me, if I am correct (?) that the splining may not be necessary.  My hat is off to all of you to whom these things are second nature and you don't even have to think too long about it.

 

My past several pages of posts represent less than a single post from experienced builders but I represent them as "the other side of the tracks". It gives me a way of requesting your opinions by showing you the minutia of where I am.

 

This is one of my pair of stakes roughly cut before it was minutely shaped to fit against the garboard then "side glued" for additional width necessary for the spline.

 

 

Below are the garboard and the next adjacent strake. Weird, in spite of my best attempt! This is what the first two stakes look like. As suggested, I used super glue gel on the frames and PVA on the seams.I beveled the strakes for a tight fit - not necessary on first planking but done for practice. 

 

 

 

Respectfully submitted,

John Maguire

Seattle

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

John,

 

I can't tell from this angle, maybe a side photo would help?  Here's what I see from here...  If you follow this line, your planking is going to run up too high in the bow compare to the rest of the planks.  The first two planks should look more like the black lines in the photo I attached.  Usually, the bow planks get narrower the more forward you go and they get wider at the stern.   

 

I'm assuming this is double-planked?  If it is, keep going the way you are and you'll see when done and then you can rework on the second layer.  If you're like me, I'm very visual and usually need to see and do to sort things out.

 

[DocBlake]

John:  I agree with Mark, but the problem could be the angle of the photo.  Can you post a side view?

 

In any case, don't lose any sleep over the first planking - it's just there to provide a base.  Keep up the good work!

[John Maguire]

Mark, John & Doc,

 

Thank you for continuing to look and comment. 

 

Mark & Doc, in the first photo and some of the others I begin to think my line out bands should be changed so that they are parallel with the keel. As now drawn, I made them essentially parallel to the lower edge of the ply. Look in particular at the first two pictures. My band closest to the keel is so narrow on the frame that I would need to have the end of the plank touching the stem to be unnaturally wide - that is what I have already done with the first plank above the garboard. With my bands as drawn I'd need to make the bow end of several planks very wide where they touch the stem. Actually, I see no way to fill up the first band but would only be able to get back on plan by the time I reach the second band's line.

 

Here are additional pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In summary, I think the aft ends of the bands are satisfactory but ask if the bow ends need to be modified to be parallel with the keel, at least the two bands closest to the keel.

 

Thank you for your time and effort.

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

John,

 

The front ends (bow) actually taper on the garboard almost to a point.  

 

Here's mine.. I have a sharper bow than yours and mine also has some other differences...

 

 

 

I also think you may have went a bit too far forward with the garboard.  What was suggested to me is run the garboard from aft forward.  When you get to the point where the plank it out over the stem, put a another plank next to it and keeping it in a straight line, trim the garboard into the stem...  

 

 

It looks like yours is bit too wide.. maybe too long... as it shouldn't curve up.

 

 

What Doc said... don't lose any sleep over it.  

 

[John Maguire]

Mark & Doc,

 

Thank you for your time.

 

I initially laid out the garboard on this hull exactly as you just described Mark but after glueing it in position it was so far forward that I was afraid the ensuing bow planks would rise too much as you discuss. Accordingly, I cut it back shorter.

 

My stated goal was to try to learn how to plank so that I would have done it once before using the good wood for a finished surface.

 

This means I should be looking at how the finish planking is positioned relative to the cannon ports, which is clear in the instructions, then starting from that line, begin planking downwards.  I would be using my present planks, not the finish layer wood.

 

Pursuant to that, suppose I laid it out by putting vertical runs of tape on each frame, mark them for each plank the way you have marked on your frames and working from top to bottom see where I end up? As I approach the garboard I would begin to see the solution for spiling as well as the shutter. 

 

I 'll have to figure out a different way to line out. The way I did it the first time got me in this trouble. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited June 16, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

John,

 

That way is reasonable.  About every 5 strake, I stopped and rechecked for tolerance build up and adjusted accordingly.  

[John Maguire]

Thank you Mark. I like your photo. Additionally, looking at Doc's INDEPENDENCE, he mentioned Clare Hess's work so I took a peek and found Clare had several pictures of his first level planking that were at an angle and clarity that was extremely helpful and it was accompanied by an explanation.

 

As a result of all the aforementioned I began planking today. I put two strakes below the ply, then moved down hull several planks width and ran a strake from bow to stern allowing it to run flat and fair. The work will follow the suggestions of Mark and Clare.

 

 

Respectfully,

 

John

[John Maguire]

Thank you dear friends for the "Likes".

 

A long day of planking. Slightly more than half the strakes are in place. A bit of a routine developed that got the ball rolling at a moderate rate but then slowed down as I entered the section of the stern that transitions between the straight up and down vertical part and the rounded portion.

 

Again, many thanks to those of you who answered my questions and got me to a point where I could move ahead.

 

 

Respectfully submitted,

John Maguire

Seattle

Edited June 21, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

John,

 

Looking pretty good.  Nice smooth runs.  Re-run your tickstrips.  From here it looks like the planks towards bow will need to start tapering.  I'm also thinking that plank next to the garboard need to have that curve reduced a bit.

Edited June 19, 2016 by mtaylor

[John Maguire]

Mark,

 

Yes, errors too numerous to talk about. 

 

Will do - thank you .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John

[DocBlake]

John:  I think your doing a fine job with the first planking.  I do agree with Mark about the plank next to the garboard strake.  That curve at the forward end needs to be shaved down.  It's creating a "bottleneck" effect that will interfere with the remaining strakes to be fitted

[DocBlake]

John:

 

Here's a shot of the garboard strake on "Independence.  I realize the hull shapes are different, but you can see that the garboard ends in a point at the bow.  This is the exception that proves the rule:   "no plank should end in a sharp point"!

[John Maguire]

Thank you dear friends for the "Likes". I am very pleased that you take the time to read and to express your approval .  .  .  .

 

Doc & Mark,

 

And, thank you for your input. By the way, remember when we all learned grammar (is it still taught?) starting a sentence with "and" was prohibited - I see it in literature and the press all the time now .  .  .  .

 

When  I originally placed the strake above the garboard it was a natural fair run and ended up as you advocate. Doc, it was long, like yours. With this hull geometry, I was afraid it would cause the planks above to climb the stem in an unacceptable way and so, cut it back. In retrospect my failure was the artificial "line out" marks I drew on the frames and nose area balsa with the attempt to treat the lowest zone credibly - it wasn't. That band was unrealistic.

 

Anyway, it is a good thing I experimented with this because I would not have wanted the finish planking to have ended up as haphazard as this one did. Early on I could see I was headed in an uncontrolled direction and yet pressed on. Shame on me . .  .  .

 

So, the bow is essentially complete and the significant vertical to round spot on the stern is also planked now. A plank or so on the two open areas with a shutter will complete the first stage planking. It didn't end up nearly as organized as I intended but seriously puts me on notice to do better. At this stage I have good coverage with tight fits. When it is sanded I'll have a good foundation for the finish planking.

 

The BIG question now .  .  .  .

 

When I finish sanding, should I still go ahead with a filler? I have no spaces, etc. between the planks - a tight fit with all strakes edge glued - so what does plastering it with filler accomplish?  Other than something wet, like Bondo, I'd end up sanding it all off! What do you use for a filler that gets into the fine cracks yet is easy to sand? Exact specifics, please. I have experience with Bondo and like its characteristics - but - I never see any of you using it. Is there a negative for what we do?

 

I have sanding sealer that I intend to use at the end. Is that correct?

 

I understand these steps are so mundane that none of you ever report them. Please understand that while I spend hours and days reading your excellent build logs, this is my first time through and I am trying to report minor steps in hopes that you'll arrest any lethal steps I am taking.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

Seattle

 

 

[GuntherMT]

Can't speak for anyone else John, but I used filler on my first model, and was unhappy with the long term results (over time it discolored compared to the hull), so on the AVS I never even considered using filler, and I am perfectly happy with the results.

 

The only time I would consider using filler now would be after the first planking of a double planked hull, and then only if it was for some large problem that I simply couldn't fix any other way.  My preference would be to 're-do' whatever was that bad and not have the need to use filler in the first place.

 

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, don't have time right now to go back through your log to confirm) that this is the first layer of a double planked hull, in which case, if the only purpose of the filler is gaps between planking, then I see no need for it, as the purpose of the first planking is to provide a nice hull form for the 2nd layer, and small gaps or cracks in the planking simply don't matter as long as it's a good surface with no major dips or rises for the 2nd layer of planking.

 

If you are concerned about the first planking being level, you can give it a light coat of primer, and then sand it.  The sanding of the primer coat will reveal any dips and imperfections in the layer so you can play with the 2nd planking over that area and determine if it needs sanding or filling prior to the planking (hope that makes sense).

[DocBlake]

I agree with Brian. Sand the first layer of planking smooth. Use filler for obvious low points or wide gaps. All you want is a nice smooth base for the second layer of planking!

[John Maguire]

Brian, Doc & Don,

 

Thank you for your helpful input on filling.

 

I have been away for a week and spent several days after returning completing the first planking. The shutters went on yesterday and today. 

 

 

The plank runs look terrible but they are all edge glued and ran fair and tight over the frames. I have neither high nor low spots. The demarcation against the ply is all smooth. The stern post was feathered prior to planking and the planks were also feathered at the stern post when planking was complete.

 

 

I have sanding sealer on the hull now and am preparing to build the "finish" transom. That is done over a paper pattern off the ship, then moved into place upon completion.

 

Studying pictures in the builders manual with a magnifying glass shows clearly how Chris planked his prototype, so with that and pictures of those ahead of me it is possible I won't screw up the finish planking.

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 8, 2016 by John Maguire

[donrobinson]

Although I am not sure what demarcation means( I will look it up real soon  ). Your planking looks great, it seems like you have a nice smooth surface for the next layer and that is exactly what you want. Good work.

 Ok, I just looked it up and yes I agree the demarcation looks fine.    

Edited July 8, 2016 by donrobinson

[mrshanks]

It looks great John!!  Keep going!!

[jbshan]

Here are two pics of the stem area.  I think you can blow them up and see the seams.

 

 

[DocBlake]

The planking turned out great, John!  Keep up the great work.

[John Maguire]

Thank you for the likes and comments .  .  .

 

As per the manual, the lower wale location was defined today by using my micrometer as a caliper.  Those marks are not shown in the two pictures seen below. Its position is significant because it wraps around and runs across the top of the transom as the upper border for the diagonal planking so proper positioning is essential for an attractive transom. 

The manual suggests constructing the "finish" diagonally planked transom off the model, then putting it in place, all the while being cognizant that the top of those planks have to fit smartly against the bottom of the wrap around wale.

 

 

 

In the manual and on the box the finish wood for the hull and transom look to my inexperienced eye to be walnut but as others have noted in their build of this ship there is a discrepancy between what is supplied and what is described. I like the white underbody and painted black wale shown on the box and in the manual. Accordingly, with that color scheme I want the rest of the wood on the transom to be the same specie. That is what you see in the picture above after a single coat of sanding sealer. Visualize a black wale across the top of the transom and white at the bottom.

 

Thank you for looking in .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John Maguire

Seattle

Edited July 9, 2016 by John Maguire

[donrobinson]

Hi John nice work on your transom it looks real good. What's confusing is that there is two different models, a "construction" model and a "show" model. The construction model in the book is being planked with walnut, which is not supplied, and the "show" model is planked with something else. Although I have never heard of using boxwood for planking that's what it looks like to me. I say this because it appears to be the same wood as the masts on the "show" model, and boxwood is commonly used for this application. The kit is supplying walnut for the masts and the instruction book is also showing walnut being used so it's anybody's guess as to what is used on the show model. One thing we can be sure of is what the show model is built with and what is supplied in the kit are not the same.

Have a Good One

Edited July 9, 2016 by donrobinson