REVENGE by John Maguire - Amati/Victory Models - build in the Cougar Mountain Shipyard

[John Maguire]

Thanks, Don. Its good to know I'm not imagining things.

 

I finished sanding the transom edges - they came out well - and now I have spent too much time trying to reconcile the manual photos, plans and my model to get the lower wale positioned correctly.

 

Respectfully,

John

[John Maguire]

Thank you dear friends for looking in and posting "Likes".

 

A great deal of nitty gritty detail because it takes me longer to do things than the rest of you experienced folks. Three weeks of my posts probably equates to what one of you would do in a single work session - but I'm learning and having fun trying to look ahead and get the basics correct. In this instance I want to be confident that I am putting the "wale plank" in the correct place. Chris uses that as the starting point for the entire planking task. The wale will go on top of it later.

 

I have spent two days with my magnifying glass looking at the lower wale position in the manual, then checked the online photos of those of you ahead of me. Midships was easy to reconcile but the ends challenged me because he speaks about the natural lay of this first plank he refers to as the wale plank, not to be confused as I determined with the wale itself. The wale will go on top of and parallel to the wale plank. Is that normal or just specific to the instructions for this model?

 

First, the stem. From a natural lay of the plank midships, to continue the run forward to the stem would position the lower wale too high on the stem and also it would seriously close in on the upper wale.  Instruction photos show both Wales, in my opinion, parallel to each other and the deck line. The plans show the same. In order to keep the lower wale parallel to both the deck and eventually the upper wale requires  unnatural bending - or whatever it is called. No matter what I did, I could not see any other solution so I laid the plank under a steam iron for several minutes then with four clamps bent it unnaturally while clamping it to a tile at close intervals to keep the plank flat. Adjacent planking will be tapered to half width as necessary and with each plank require less unnatural bend.

 

 

Second, I have a similar but less drastic unnatural bend required to correctly route to the proper place on the edge of the transom. That seems to be doable without steam and still get a flat lay. Those planks will be attached tomorrow.

 

The stem and keel are made up of three pieces. Today I glued and clamped them off the model and shaped a rabbet while the glue set. Later, the keel/stem group was attached to the ship.

 

 

The rear of the stern was feathered. It looks irregular in this photo but is not - it was done with sandpaper glued to a flat piece of masonite. To ensure uniformity a couple of swipes was done on one side, then with muscle and visual memory the opposite side - back and forth. When the stern post is glued to the diagonally planked area of the transom it will leave a small gap (the thickness of the diagonal planks) between the forward face of the post and the aft face of the stern itself. That space combined with the feathering will create a suitable rabbet.

 

 

Now to let the glue set for a day because the stem is pinned in a compression mode right now.

 

Is it Happy Hour yet? .  .  .  .  .

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by John Maguire

[CaptainSteve]

Nice work, John. This one is on my list as a possibility for my next build.

 

 

Is it Happy Hour yet? .  .  .  .  .

 

Fortunately, it is always Happy Hour somewhere in the world.

[WackoWolf]

It's always 5 o'clock somewhere, anytime is Happy Time.

[DocBlake]

Great progress, John!  I can't wait to see how the second layer of planking looks.

[John Maguire]

Thank you Capt. Steve, WW & Doc. Also thank you for the many "Likes".

 

Another productive day at the Cougar Mtn. Shipyard. I think it was Martin who said planking between the Wales is a bit finicky - or something to the sort. Wrong dear friend - it is very finicky. The wood just doesn't want to bend that way. To do it otherwise would be to have the wales sharply swing upward approaching the stem and converge. The manual, box pictures and my sea eye wants to see the Wales run parallel to the deck and be evenly separated for their length. The only way to do that is to torture the wood. But, having said that the worst case is the so called wale plank that will be covered by the lower wale. In the photo, it is the lowest strake. Each plank above that becomes slightly less tortured. I have four in place on each side now, moving in the upward direction and the fifth and beyond look to be straight flat easy runs. I don't look forward to returning to bend a lower wale to shape, especially considering that it will need to have been tortured in the wrong direction and remain stable in shape so that it can be painted before glueing in position. Help. What is an effective way to bend wood the "wrong way"? Maybe a couple of minutes of steam isn't enough .  .  .

 

Here is a quick peek at the stbd side before clean up.

 

 

The port side, my learning side, was done first and does not have furniture quality seams between the planks. I have mixed some saw dust with watered down PVA and we'll see if I did a good job with the witches brew tomorrow when it gets a little sanding. Now it looks pretty messy.

 

 

Moving upwards from these four planks looks straight forward. No weird bends or torture.

 

In the downward direction I experimented by laying a plank adjacent to the lower wale plank and tracing a line with a pencil on the hull from bow to stern. I then moved the plank down to that line and did the same thing plank by plank moving towards the keel. They end up pretty much parallel to the keel, so hopefully the worst is over.

 

Thank you for looking in.

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 12, 2016 by John Maguire

[John Maguire]

Seven strakes on each side now .  .  .

 

Question please: some of the separations between planks, though very tight, have black lines for reasons that I don't understand. This supplied wood is light in color and not to my liking so I have been thinking I'd stain it, possibly dark walnut. In your experiences, do you think there is a reasonable expectation that the stain will neutralize that effect?

 

 

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 14, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

Those are gaps, John.   Did you bevel the inside edges of the planks?  Going a curved surface the inside edges keep the outside edges from meeting.

[John Maguire]

Thank you for all who have looked in and posted LIKES.

 

Thanks Mark, yes, I see what you say. I am trying to tighten things up moving forward.

 

The wood itself, even if perfectly fit, is in my opinion too light in color. It is not the walnut described in the manual.  Overall, the planking so far as well as the first layer is sufficiently tight that it does not need sanding sealer to further tighten and bind it, although I have put it on, followed by sanding.

 

At this point I think I want to use walnut stain to darken the wood. Should I plan to use Minwax "wood prep for staining"? Am I correct to think it enables the stain to color evenly? Do you think it will disguise my flaws? Should sanding sealer go on first or would it keep the Minwax wood prep from soaking into the wood?

 

Too many questions - sorry .  .  .

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 16, 2016 by John Maguire

[mtaylor]

John,

 

Pop those questions in Painting and Finishing area as I have no idea about sanding sealer or the various finishes and stains.. I'm a pure Wipe-on-Poly type myself.  Here's a link to it:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/21-painting-finishing-and-weathering-products-and-techniques/

[DocBlake]

John: What type of wood is the finished planking? Soft woods like pine require a conditioner to prevent "splotchiness". Even cherry sometimes. If the wood is walnut, just stain away! You'll be fine. Just be sure there is no glue residue on the planking. It will block the stain from penetrating.

[mrshanks]

Hi John, if I can offer my thoughts, I am similar to what Dave said.  For "most" model woods, if I am staining I first apply a Minwax Pre-Stain Conditioner then stain away (especially with basswood and other soft woods).  I only use Sanding Sealer on wood that is either going to be painted or just poly'd.  Sanding sealer will tend to eliminate the grain and make for a smooth surface after painting.  Experiment around some and you will decide what you like.  

 

Hope this helps!!

[S.Coleman]

Looking real nice! Good work.

[John Maguire]

Thank you for the many LIKES and advices for staining. I am unable to identify the wood type. Don Robinson, Denis or Marten, could you please identify the specie?

 

Well, today I decided my work was unsatisfactory. Look at this.

 

 

And this .  .  .

 

 

So, I spent the afternoon with #60 sandpaper and ground back down to the glue boundary.

 

 

Now for reconstruction, here is a photo of the plan. Look to the relative position of the lower wale. The manual calls for a strake in the position of each wale and they call it a wale plank. Later in the build they instruct the builder to add a wale on top of the wale plank. So, to recap, the first task is to lay the wale plank. Please observe its position relative to other prominent features.

 

 

In the next picture you'll see I have heavily marked the wale position so that I can use Dan's "cover it with tape" scheme and be able to see the line through my tape. I then took a long 5mm plank and correctly positioned it below the gun ports and let it run with its natural flat lay against the hull. Notice please how it travels upward approaching the stem, contrary to the plan.

 

 

In the following picture you will see a completed REVENGE where the builder seems to have done exactly what is demonstrated in my prior photo. It is a beautiful model, by the way.

 

 

Now, back to the Builders Manual. In this photo they attach the wale strake, then on the next strake below it they begin to taper. My problem is that I can't attach the initial wale plank the way Chris did because of compound curvatures. He is a magician.

 

 

Here is another view of the correct position.

 

 

And finally, the next picture is the best available that illustrates the compound nature of the plank.

 

 

Do any of you have a technique to bend planks in unnatural directions? Not only the bend, but when you study this last picture it can be seen the plank needs to be longer on the top edge than on the bottom edge. I did this before, but not well and that is part of why I removed my last weeks work.

 

Spile? When I lay out tape on the hull - flat - as per Dan's suggestion to Mark and then remove and study the tape trace laying flat on the table it looks to me to be a spile candidate because the shape is so irregular and represents the width of at least three planks. However, if the wood can be turned to wet spaghetti that would sure be easier.

 

Please dear friends weigh in with your opinions.

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by John Maguire

[GuntherMT]

Spile or edge bending are really the only two options.  Since it will eventually be black, use a wood that doesn't splinter like walnut when edge bent (basswood, but it's soft, or boxwood or pear maybe).  Chuck Passaro's build log on the Cheerful has a video in it somewhere showing how to edge bend planks with a 'bending station' (i.e. a 1 x 6 and some clamps) and a blow dryer or heat gun. 

[slow2cool]

I have not been doing this for a long time but, I would say that Brian is spot on. I can't think of any thing else.

If you can spile, spile. If you can't look for softer wood.

I have to say, it takes a lot of determanation to sand away the work you have done.

Joe

[donrobinson]

Hi John, too bad about the planking but if you are happier than that's what counts. Looking at your pictures and the manual I think you have your plank positioned wrong. It looks like to me you should have it at least two or three strakes lower than the plywood bulwarks, try lowering your plank so the top edge of it is at your line marked and not the bottom edge. This should help as the stern is so much higher I don't think any drastic edge bending is required, and if there was Chris W. would have mentioned it in the instructions.

 Hope this helps

 

P.S. I have not checked the plans, I am just going by the pictures you have and the manual

Edited July 18, 2016 by donrobinson

[donrobinson]

John,

 On your initial planking you didn't have this problem and in going back in your log I think the wale would have been the fourth(again without measuring) strake. it laid nicely as did the ones above it. So this is telling me you had things right to this point, what happened is you did not taper the fifth strake and following ones thus causing a problem, again I am just going by what I see in the pictures and manual and not the plans.

 I will leave you alone now and quit being a pain in the .....

[John Maguire]

Brian, I am enroute to checking out Chuck's edge bending right now - thank you.

 

Don, you are very observant - because the ship is upside down I put the plank on the wrong side of the line to make photography better. Repositioning it will not make the kind of change necessary. Can you please look at your kit Don and identify the wood I am using?

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 18, 2016 by John Maguire

[donrobinson]

John: Did your initial planking go on ok? If so what has changed, because I think you had it right the first time. In my kit the planking is the same as the deck planking bundle which to me looks like Sapelli( not sure about the spelling) it takes stain and finishing well. Mike S. is an expert on finishing so any advice he can give is well worth listening to. Dave(docblake) knows his stuff too I just want to stir the pot between these two   

[mrshanks]

Don - I always seem to smile when reading your posts!!!  I been taking it easy lately building plastic model ships while anxiously waiting for Dave to finally finish his AVS.  I'm sure he is probably off in the corner treenailing right now!!!  

[mtaylor]

John,

For this, you're choices are spiling or bending... or a bit of both. 

 

Chuck's system works very well...  I checked Youtube and he must not have loaded it up there.   He basically heats the wood until pliable and then bends it using clamps to a table top and let it cool.   I do it a bit different in that I soak the wood for a bit and then use an old curling iron to bend and shape.   Lots of ways to get the same place. 

 

Edit:  Found them...

 

 

 

These really need to be put some place on the site.....   

 

Edit of the edit... I just posted these to the Planking sub-forum.   I hope they help.

Edited July 18, 2016 by mtaylor

[John Maguire]

Brian, Joe, Don & Mark,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful advices.

 

Yes, I did the original "first" planking in this area but it was as much a hassle as I am having now and the seams are not finish quality. I could not achieve really finish grade seams.

 

Pictures that I displayed a few posts ago show where I was headed this time with the final planking and the results were not suitable.  With the first planking, glueing the couple of inches closest to the stem was done with medium viscosity super glue. It seems like every place I did that there were black seams. Probably a coincidence. Additionally, the seams were not furniture tight. I was fighting the wood.

 

I have been scouring You Tube videos for the past two days to no avail. Thank you for the Chuck related videos. I just saw that post and will look. I soaked some planks in alcohol all night then wrapped one in a wet cloth and microwaved it, first for three minutes with no good results, then for five minutes. No help.

 

I tried hot air and it did nothing on either of the two types of wood that I have. In the photo below you'll see a piece of the wood used for the first planking that I experimented on with hot air this morning and broke it.

 

I made a jig with the approximate shape that I want and by putting the smaller part of the jig on top of my plank I was able to keep the planking from twisting as I forced it into the concave shape of the jig. I ran hot air over it later to try to dry out the wood. I'll leave it for awhile before releasing the clamps.

 

Could it be that this wood is of so little mass that it does not retain interior heat after trying to steam it in a wet rag inside the microwave oven?

 

I am thinking next of trying boiling water for an hour or longer.

 

Here is what I just did. You can see the tape pattern beside it and to the side is the piece I broke when I tried hot air.

 

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

[mtaylor]

Hmm... I've never had success with the boiling or microwave way of bending.   I soak and then use a curling iron... rinse and repeat as needed.   I tried Chuck's method and some woods worked well, others, not so much. Plus, I don't have space to work with the heat of a heat gun.  My workshop is pretty packed.

 

The key is to heat until it's pliable and then bend and lock into position until cool.  

[John Maguire]

First of all, thank you for the many LIKES, dear friends .  .  .  .

 

Having said that, here I am back again - twice in the same day. Reason: problem solved!

 

I see all of you with your clever home made tools and jigs so I decided to begin by following your lead and try one myself. The advantage I found with this jig was that after clamping the concave side to the tile I could lay the movable piece on top of my plank during the bending push and by so doing it kept the plank from wrinkling as it was forced into its unnatural edge direction.

 

All the techniques with which I was unsuccessful seemed in my opinion to be tailored to normal bending and gave me no discernible relief when I used them for edge bending.

 

 

 

I opted to follow the lead of Mark and Chuck with plank lengths that in my case are only somewhat scale. Importantly, by having shorter lengths to attach I'll have more control in glue amount, taper, bevel and plank to plank tightness. I did the first attempt, which was removed, with full hull length planks and always felt that I didn't have the control that I wished for.

 

 

Below is the wale plank and the first plank above it. Those are the two most difficult. On my hull, they can only lay flat and fair if they are edge bent.

 

 

Continuing to plank upward will only require slight edge bending.

 

Planking downward will only require tapering.

 

Again, thank you for your many advices. Also, I am going to look closely at Chuck's videos. 

 

Now back for an edit after getting into just the first few minutes of Chuck's video and I see the easy way to do it .  .  .  . Wow!

 

Respectfully,

John

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by John Maguire

[John Maguire]

Mark,

 

Those two videos have the information I have been looking for all week. I was out of ideas on where else to look. I have begun both his and your builds but hadn't reached anything other than his mention of using a hair dryer. Without the video the information doesn't help someone as inexperienced as me. Your "tear aparts" motivated me to do my  own. Thank you .  .  .

 

My home made jig gave me two planks with difficulty but Chuck's method for edge bending was as simple and easy as one could ever hope to find. After putting the wale plank and the one above it with two planks made from my jig I used Chuck's method and more easily made two more as seen below. I even went so far as to order some clamps identical to what he used.

 

 

The second and equally important thing was watching him illustrate implementation of his lining off. I did not do that the first time, even though I recognized its importance, I will definitely do it this time.

 

Respectfully and thankfully,

John Maguire

Seattle

[mtaylor]

John,

 

I'm happy to have been of help.   We all learn from each other here.   I'm just glad you found what works for you.

[slow2cool]

Hi John

My first planking on the type of bow you have, came out just like what you did. I didn't have any wide planking to spile, and didn't know about edge bending. I didn't bother lining off the haul or do any tapering for the reason I just said, so mine came out like yours.

When I have done other types of hauls I have lined them off and taper the planks, so I did know the process, just didn't know about edge bending.

I have done your jig method, which I find helps keep the wood from splitting.

I am trying Chuck's method, I have had some wood that bends fine, and other that just splits.

Not sure if it's me, the wood, or what.

Looks like you are doing well at this stage. If you have any other info about planking please post.

Info about planking is like money, you can never have too much.

Joe

[John Maguire]

Thank you for the many LIKES, dear friends .  .  .

 

Joe, I appreciate you taking the time to comment. At this point in time I have only edge bent two planks with Chuck's method. I bent to the point where I felt safe, then clamped and applied heat. There was very little spring back when I released the clamps after cooling. I found that I could further bend at that point and repeat the process. 

 

I just spent part of the last two days hand sanding the planks previously glued to the stbd side of the ship. Boring. The port side had been stripped earlier. 

 

 

The builders manual instructs the constructor to attach the wale plank as described a couple of days ago and then continue planking as seen in the photo below.

 

 

Instead, I am going to line off the hull in standard fashion and use Chuck Passaro's edge bending technique to plank parallel to the lower run of the gun ports. That should produce an appearance similar to his ship CHEERFUL. I prefer that appearance.

 

Edge bent planks similar to this, which he advocates in lieu of stealers and drop planks, seem to make that possible.

 

 

Amati provides 4mm finish planking while specifying 5mm. That of course makes no difference, but I plan to mill 5mm wood and paint it black for the wales. The wales will to some degree not be parallel to the hull planking at the bow and stern, only midship. I believe I have seen that on other ship builds. The 5mm width ought to work well in contrast to the 4mm planking that it overlays.

 

Now to study lining off .  .  .

 

Respectfully submitted,

John

 

 

 

 

[John Maguire]

This is the first to two consecutive posts, each describing a planking possibility. Kindly give opinions.

 

I am considering a different way than Chris's instruction on how to plank REVENGE. To do as he suggests begins with the wale plank, laid on approximately parallel to the deck sheer. Planks below the wale would then follow a path similar to this picture.

 

 

Looking at Chuck Passaro's CHEERFUL and studying his edge bending technique invites the thought of edge bent spile like planks where aft and particularly forward they more nearly parallel the wale as well as the keel. I am bending the planks as seen below to prevent wrinkling. Though Chuck has bent his dry, I found my wood cracked. Wetting it for a couple of minutes in hot water prevented that. I plan to further explore with boiling water. Once bent, I put the jig in the freezer to hasten cooling.

 

 

As I began to line out the hull, two possibilities presented themselves. I plan to post twice - once for each of the possibilities that I investigated. 

 

I used actual planks to define four bands. This enable me to more clearly visualize the actual fair lay and in particular what would happen at the stem.

 

This is the FIRST of the two posts and shows one of the explored possibilities.

 

I began by choosing the widest frame amidship. My 4mm planks will require 28 strakes to go from the lower edge of the wale (reference) plank to the keel. In the next photo the mid plank is shown. The strake is laying fair through the position for the 14th plank, half way between the wale and the keel. Looking at the two frame positions forward can be seen a pin hole at each representing the mid point between the wale and the keel.

 

 

This mid band strake was positioned at the stern to be the last strake approaching the post that is in a rounded position. The next plank would parallel the vertical part of the stern.

 

 

The mid point strake, already edge bent, continues forward half way between the wale and the keel. It can be seen converging with the wale in the next two pictures. 

 

 

 

At this point the plan to divide each frame into four equal widths began to look like the stem area was not going to work out well. The equal division of each frame into four equal width bands sounded reasonable but in reality I don't think it works. Should it if spiled?

 

I went on to a modified proposal that can be seen in the next post.

 

Respectfully,

John

Edited July 24, 2016 by John Maguire