Triton cross section by Anguirel -1:48

[Mike Y]

Black paper to accentuate the frame joints is an interesting idea. Looks very sharp!

Was it hard to align all the frame pieces with paper in the middle?

[amateur]

The joints are looking very sharp .

Make sure the paint of the paper doesn't bleed out as a result of the finish you are going to use.

 

Jan

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

"and very nice it is too! That must have been very satisfying to make.

 

Tony"

 

Thanks Tony, it was indeed very satisfying...

 

Mike, align the pieces wasn’t difficult, just used the plan as a template. What was difficult was sanding the individual half frames and putting the two half’s together.

The frame pieces, chocks and futtocks were sanded and aligned before and everything was perfect. Once I put the paper on this added an extra length (the thickness of the paper) to all components and everything had to be re-sanded and the chocks had to be re-dimensioned. Next time this can be avoided by taking this in consideration from the beginning. Another problem was that the glue doesn’t form a solid joint across the paper so it’s very easy to pull the pieces apart (this happened three times during sanding) leaving paper on both sides. This doesn’t happen once the two half’s are together.

 

Now what I don’t know how to do is how to put the two half together. This time I did it with the two half fully assembled. There is a post called “Assembling Frames” pinned to the top of the cross section section that shows how to do this adding piece by piece of the two half at the frame time. First the floor futtock, then the 1^st futtock, then the 2^nd and so forth... now my question is how do you align them if all the pieces have extra wood on the side, how do you align the red and blue line if they are not always at the same distance from the edge of the different pieces (when I did mine, I cheated, I sand it first so the lines where at the edges).

 

Christian, your help is most welcome and needed.

Some questions and observation from the image you posted

 

1.    The frame at station 0 is not double

2.    The double frames at station 1 and (A) are not symmetrical, the half’s closest to frame 0 are thicker

3.    Frames at station 3, 5, 7, A, C and E are symmetrical

4.    The frames at stations 7, 5, 3, 1, (A), A, C and E there is a space between them from the 1^st futtock up while the frames at stations 6, 4, 2, ? (what is the name of the station between (A) and A?), B and D there is a space between them all the way from the keel

5.    What are the units of the thickness values written in the image?

6.    When you say all other frames have normal thickness is that the thickness used in the plans here at the forum? If that is the case I can use the pieces I have already cut and just sand then to the correct thickness (assuming they have the thickness of the floor futtock all the way up). Only have to redo the frame 0 and the two half frames from station 1 and (A)

7.    The frames at stations 7, 5, 3, 1, (A), A, C and E at the connection of the different pieces there are 4 horizontal lines (two at the 2^nd-3^rd futtock joint) in the space between the half frames, are those the location of the frames spacers? or just the location of the copper bolts?

8.    How do I determine the size of the space between the frames, they don’t seem to be always the same

9.    The frames at station 6, 4, 2, ?, B, D there seems to only be a reduction in thickness from the floor futtock to the 2^nd futtock and from the 1^st futtock to the 3^rd futtock. The 2^nd, 3^rd, 4^th futtocks and the top timber have the same thickness

 

Jan, I already used this paper in the same way in one of my kits and it didn’t bleed to the wood but I will test this on the frame I’m doing now

 

Just a small update on the frame I’m doing… the treenails are in place as well as the copper wires. Once everything is sanded I will post picture

 

Thanks everyone for the likes, comments and help…

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

So I finished my first double frame. This was done mainly for testing since the frame is wrong some time now... I think the treenails and copper nails came out alright, the copper nails more then the treenails.

 

One half

 

The other half

 

The treenails

 

And the treenails on the scarph

 

I realised now that the treenails on the scarph should had gone through to the other side. But should the same thing be done on the chock?

 

For the finish I was planning on using Danish oil but I must admit it let the wood darker then I was expecting...

 

One half

 

The other half

 

The treenails

 

While I was putting the treenails I used a pencil to "paint" the treenails black but most of it came off during the process of applying the treenails to the frame. At the time I was worried that the black wouldn't show but I guess I was wrong.

 

I ordered wood from The Lumberyard and from Hobby Mill, although the are the same wood type (boxwood) there are not the same...

 

For last... next time have to be more careful to maintain the frame square when doing the holes for the treenails. This is a stupid way to ruin a frame almost at the end

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Anguirel

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Aguriel,

 

if you have Antscherls TFFM have a look in volume 1, page 88. There is a description for the correct position of the treenails in the chocks.

 

To your observations and questions:

1. correct
2. correct
3. correct
4. Yes, only the floor timbers and first futtocks are glued together. The timbers for the other frames are thinner and there the double frames will be connected with spacers. B and D are single frames. The change of double and single frames is common for English ships of this period.
5. Frame 0: floor timber 1ft 4in, second futtock 1ft 3in, fourth futtock 1ft 1in; Frame 1 and (A): first futtock 1ft 4in, third futtock 1ft, 2in, top timber 1ft 1in
6. That's a question of what you want. In the group build all timbers ofthe frames have the same size. In the original ship the timbers will become thinner. In my opinion and if this is your first try I would follow this simplification. If you like to know the correct sizes I will have a look in my book.
7. Yes, there are the spacers. If you follow the dimensions in the books the top timbers are 1/4in smaller. I think that this is negligible in 1/48.
8. The position of the gun ports gives the position of the frames The sizes of the timbers and the tolerances define the space. I would start to build the double frames and position them correct. Then I would add the filling frames (single frames) regular between them.
9. See answer 6

Edited January 8, 2017 by AnobiumPunctatum

[Anguirel]

Hi

 

Christian, thanks for the info. I think it's too late to go with simplification... if it's not too much trouble for you can you send me the correct sizes?

[AnobiumPunctatum]

No problem, here are the values for the regular frames from Elements of Naval Architecture (Steel):

 

floor timber: 12 1/2''

1st futtock: 13''

2nd futtock: 11''

3rd futtock: 10 1/2''

4th futtock: 10 1/4''

top timber: 10''

 

Source: Allan Yedlinsky: Scantlings of Royal navy Ships 1719-1805, SeaWatchBooks LLC, 2014

[mtaylor]

Looking really good.   On the paper problem.... punch numerous (the more, the better) holes in the paper with a pin.  Right now you have wood, glue, paper bond.  The holes should help some.   You might try, if you can find it, is some wood glue that tinted or get some artists pigment (powder) and tint your own glue to the color and shade you want. 

[Anguirel]

Hi

 

Thanks for the measurements Christian. Just one question, did you switch the floor timber and the 1st futtock? the floor timber should be thicker right?

 

As for the position of the gun ports I'm assuming I can use the plans of the forum for that. Do you have a way to confirm that?

 

Mark I will try the holes thing and next time I'm in Hobby Lobby I will ask if they have the artist pigment... (the only immediate problem I see is the excess glue witch I tend to apply)

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Anguriel,

 

I will check it this evening.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Anguriel,

 

 I checked the values. They are correct. I've had a look to my drawing project. At cutters the first futtock is also wider than the floor timber.

As far as I remember the position of the gun ports  of the group build matchs the original drawing.

[Anguirel]

Hi Christian,

 

Thanks for the info. It's back to the drawing board, from the values you sent all the frames are thicker then the ones on the frorun planes so I can't use the ones I had already cut.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Anguriel,

 

the thickness of the regular frames is not that important in 1/48 (1'' is 0.5mm in that scale). If you take the medium thickness and make all frames the same it's absolut ok. I think the typical position of the single and double frames and the special frames at midship are typical for an English ship and special for your choosen pattern.

 

But if you like the fun to build it more close to the original ship, do it the more complicated way.

 

I wouldn't you black paper for the frames. The joint is not stable enough. There exist a one layer pulp, which you will find in a hobby store. If you use this the joint is much better.

Black paper should show the caulking. As far as I know there is now caulking between the tmibers of a frame. If you want to higlight the joints, it is better to use brown color which is a little darker than the used timber, Have a look on page 4 in my build log.

[Gabek]

I agree with Christian that there wouldn't be caulk between the frame timbers.  Caulk was to prevent water from entering the hull - so it would only be on the deck and hull planking.  (I read somewhere that when a new ship was launched, the head caulker would have to drink all the water that came into the hull! )

 

I wouldn't worry about remaking your frames - they look excellent.  The paper is showing off your excellent construction of the frames!  

 

Clear skies,

Gabe

[Anguirel]

Hi

 

 

This was waiting for me when I arrived home yesterday, finally I will be able o keep things squared.

 

As for the black paper on the frames, the double frames they are sturdy enough ( if the one I built can be used as an example) the simple ones might be a ploblem. I used the paper because I read somewhere that they used tar or pitch on the frame joints, but now I can't find it, will have to go through the books again...

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Just an update on my (not) progress... I tried to do the futtocks with different thickness using boxwood from Hobby Lobby, bad idea... the wood is not dense (don't know if that is the correct word to use) enough, it couldn't hold the shape specially the edges. The edges looked like they were chewed.

 

Now I'm in the process of changing houses so my work corner look like this

 

In the mean time I contacted Crown Timberyard to see if they can mill the wood to the thickness I want. If they can't do it I will just have to accepted that I don't have the tool necessary to do it that way.

[GuntherMT]

Pretty sure you didn't get boxwood from Hobby Lobby, as (at least here) they only carry basswood, which is much softer than boxwood.

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

You are right it is basswood, I bought it by mistake. For some reason the Hobby Lobbby closest to my house as balsa, bass and boxwood but I guess some are mixed up and so I bought the wrong one.

[GuntherMT]

That would certainly explain it being soft!  I sure wish someone local to me carried boxwood, it would be awesome to be able to just walk into a shop and sort through boxwood for what I wanted.

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

After moving to the new house, unpacking everything and a surprise trip to London a was able to convince the Admiral to double my space

 

 

Wile in London I managed to take one (very cold) day to go to the Royal Dockyards in Portsmouth. What a wonderful day... I just felt like a kid on Christmas Eve...

 

Now I need to go back and think on how I want to proceed...

 

Thanks

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

Since I I don't have the appropriate tools and and I don't want to spend the money to buy the milled wood (because I'm saving to buy the a table saw and a lathe) I decided that for now I'm doing the frames as by the plans. Since I was planing to completely plank the cross section it won't make a difference. As soon as I have the tools I will make another with no planking to show the internal construction. 

 

So today I brought back the pieces I had already cut, and assembled the two half of frame 0

 

 (having some difficulties adding images using the IPad)

[Eddie]

I like what you have done so far keep it up

[Anguirel]

It's official, I'm halfway through assembling the frames

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

It's looking really good. Will you go the way with doubble and single frames, if we discussed at January?

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

I asked for a quote for boxwood with the thickness you sent but it was more then I was expecting and because it was my plan from the beginning to plank the all cross session and I want to buy a table saw and a lathe I rather save the money for the tools. So my plan now is to make the frames as they are in the plans and later when I have the tools I will make them "properly" and the decks only, with no planking.

[Anguirel]

Finally finished the frames... I have the jig to assemble them ready (I built something similar to ChadB's.

one question: is there a proper place for the spacers? 

I will post some pictures tomorrow 

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

today reached a point of no return, the frames are in place...

with the help of the jig and the spacers it was easier then I was expecting. Still had to redo some of the frames in order to align them properly (that is where I am now...)

I played around with patterns of the treenails to fix the frames against the keel...

 

 

The pattern on frame B seems better but from what I read it was only adopted after 1811 (Sappings System?, can anyone confirm this) and the one on frame C was the one in practice between 1710-1811.

Next is the gunport lintels and sills then sanding, lots of sanding...

 

Hugo

[Anguirel]

Hi,

 

i haven't been able to spent as much time on the cross section as I like but I manage to do a bit here and there.

Sanding took a lot of time and was the only way I could find to give the hull the right shape.

Here how she look now...

in some places I didn't manage to get a good fit but still learning I guess...

 

Hugo

[DocBlake]

Great job on those frames!

[Anguirel]

Manage to spend some quality time in the workshop. Planking the inside is done to the level of the lower deck.

 

 

The guide lines for the treenails is marked, next is drilling the holes and do the treenails.

 

In the meantime I planed to do something different for the deck beams. I did a two timber deck beam with a table and lipped scarph.

 

The one on the right is glued and with the black paper. It came out better then I was expecting for a first try. Now the problem is that the plans are made to use a constant thickness beam which is not the case of this one.

 

Any advice on how to compensate for this? In the case of the lower left and upper right beam arm it must be shorter then on the plans and the other two it must be bigger... I could not find an example of a two timber beam on a model (found several examples of a three timber beams though). As for this one the cuts for the beam arms and carling will "cut" the scarph of the beam.

 

Any advice is welcome...

 

Hugo