Old Collingwood Posted June 14, 2018 #1 Posted June 14, 2018 I have decided to make a slight distraction from my HMS Greyhound build, and start on my Sub kit instead, its been sat in the cupboard for a while so I decided to take it out - shake off the dust and have a go of it. When I used to live close to one of UKs RN ports I used to see these class of subs on an almost daily basis, so it is fitting to build her, the name fits in nicely also Here are a few pics showing he contents and also a couple of my pics from where I used to live showing one of the actual subs. OC. lmagna, James H, vossy and 7 others 10 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 14, 2018 Author #2 Posted June 14, 2018 Building has started - the hull consists of three sections, two lower split down the center line and the one piece upper, so after cutting the sections away, I trimmed away the plastic pips and sanded flat, I then glued the two halves and set aside, I then scribed some of the top hull detail just to give a sharper line for the detailing. Here's a few pics. OC. hexnut, vossy, yvesvidal and 9 others 12 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
James H Posted June 14, 2018 #3 Posted June 14, 2018 Lovely start. Can't wait to see what you do with this. popeye the sailor, Piet, lmagna and 2 others 5 Quote SAY NO TO PIRACY. SUPPORT ORIGINAL IDEAS AND MANUFACTURERS. KEEP IT REAL! On the bench: Zip, nada! On Hold: HMS Winchelsea Double Capstan - Syren Ship Models - 1:48 Finished US Baltimore Armed Privateer Schooner Grecian 1812 (prototype) - Vanguard Models - 1:64 'Zulu' fishing boat, Vanguard Models - 1:64 Fifie' fishing boat, Vanguard Models - 1:64 HMS Flirt 1782, Vanguard Models - 1:64. Duchess of Kingston c.1780 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 HMS Sphinx 1775, Vanguard Models - 1:64 ERYCINA - Plymouth Ketch-Rigged Trawler 1882, Vanguard Models - 1:64. 'Nisha' - The Brixham 'Mumble-Bee' - Vanguard Models 1:64 'Saucy Jack' fishing boat - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Ranger 'Barking Fish Carrier' - 1864 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 HMS Indefatigable - 1794 (production prototype), Vanguard Models - 1:64. HMS Harpy - 1796 (production prototype) - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Indeterminate: Tender Avos - Master Korabel - 1:72. H.M.S. Victory (production prototype) - Amati - 1:64. HMS Granado 1742 (cross section) - CAFModel - 1:48
Old Collingwood Posted June 14, 2018 Author #4 Posted June 14, 2018 17 minutes ago, James H said: Lovely start. Can't wait to see what you do with this. Thanks James OC. James H, Canute, Piet and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
lmagna Posted June 15, 2018 #5 Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) In the last picture it looks like there is quite a bit of detail on the hull. Will you be able to highlight any of this, or will it just be black? Edited June 15, 2018 by lmagna popeye the sailor, Old Collingwood, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Lou Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence Currant builds: Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold) Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral) 1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin) Currant research/scratchbuild: Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes Non ship build log: 1/35th UH-1H Huey
vossy Posted June 15, 2018 #6 Posted June 15, 2018 Love to see the Subs. Had a bit to do with them in the real world cheers Chris cog, Piet, Old Collingwood and 2 others 5 Quote
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #7 Posted June 15, 2018 8 hours ago, lmagna said: In the last picture it looks like there is quite a bit of detail on the hull. Will you be able to highlight any of this, or will it just be black? Hiya lou thanks for looking in, the idea is to paint the whole hull a dark grey sheme but alsong the top centerline is a flat back anti-slip finish, there are some recessed panel lines that I hope to show with dark grey washing in the lines, not sure if my cell phone camera will be good enough to show this, mind you its done ok so far. OC. cog, Piet, CDW and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #8 Posted June 15, 2018 8 hours ago, vossy said: Love to see the Subs. Had a bit to do with them in the real world cheers Chris Thanks chris, I used to see a few go past where I used to live. OC. popeye the sailor, cog, Piet and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #9 Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) I got round to adding a few coats of extra dark grey (hand painted of course) and after gave it a bit of a polish. Couple of pics. OC. Edited June 15, 2018 by Old Collingwood fnkershner, Piet, cog and 5 others 8 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
lmagna Posted June 15, 2018 #10 Posted June 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Old Collingwood said: its done ok so far. Hopefully that will do and the details come out. I had hopped that you were using your regular camera sorry to hear that you are not. Canute, Old Collingwood, popeye the sailor and 2 others 5 Quote Lou Build logs: Colonial sloop Providence 1/48th scale kit bashed from AL Independence Currant builds: Constructo Brigantine Sentinel (Union) (On hold) Minicraft 1/350 Titanic (For the Admiral) 1/350 Heavy Cruiser USS Houston (Resin) Currant research/scratchbuild: Schooner USS Lanikai/Hermes Non ship build log: 1/35th UH-1H Huey
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #11 Posted June 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, lmagna said: Hopefully that will do and the details come out. I had hopped that you were using your regular camera sorry to hear that you are not. No mate its still in the shop, my phone camera gets by and manages ok with close ups. OC. Canute, John Allen, popeye the sailor and 1 other 4 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Jack12477 Posted June 15, 2018 #12 Posted June 15, 2018 Hi OC ! I'm here, even beat the 3 Amigos getting here from the trifecta build ! Looking good ! lmagna, Piet, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote Jack "No one is as smart as all of us" - Is ón cheann a thagann an cheird The craft comes from the head --------------------------------------------- Current build: US Constellation Non-ship builds: USCG UH-65A Dolphin M16 Multi-gun motor carriage diorama M4A3 Sherman Tanks dioramas 1936-1939 Mercedes Benz 540K 1934 Rolls-Royce Phantom II JSDF Light Armor Vehicle Figures: The Last Bridge: Raider Reaper Edge of Universe: Ianis The Last Bridge: Vadim with cart Completed build log(s): 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne, Willie L Bennett 1888 50 ft Gaff-rigged Ice Yacht Scratch Build The Sullivans (DD 537) Liberty Ship SS John W Brown USS England (DE 635), Artesania Latina Titanic Lifeboat Gallery: Swift , Armed Virginia Sloop, Santisima Trinidad Captain's Launch , 18th Century Longboat , Marie Jeanne Other: Rhinebeck Aerodrome Tour
RGL Posted June 15, 2018 #13 Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) I’m here! Challenging to paint really. Looking forward to see how you attack it. Edited June 15, 2018 by RGL cog, popeye the sailor, Piet and 4 others 7 Quote Greg
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #14 Posted June 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, Jack12477 said: Hi OC ! I'm here, even beat the 3 Amigos getting here from the trifecta build ! Looking good ! Thanks jack OC. popeye the sailor, cog, Piet and 2 others 5 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 15, 2018 Author #15 Posted June 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, RGL said: I’m here! Challenging to paint really. Lots King forward to see how you attack it. It was a challenge for my hairy sticks, but I kept the coats very thin like thin milk, and I do find my Lifecolor Acrylic very good and very tough, within a few hours of painting and hair dryer between coats, I was soon able to smooth the hulls down with soapy water and a sponge, and no rubbing off with the paint. OC. cog, Canute, popeye the sailor and 3 others 6 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Piet Posted June 16, 2018 #16 Posted June 16, 2018 Ah, a no-see'm boat, I'll join the crowd OC. Looking good! Cheers, cog, CDW, popeye the sailor and 4 others 7 Quote Piet, The Flying Dutchman. "Your greatest asset is not the quantity of your friends , rather the quality of your friends." (old Chinese proverb) Current Builds: Hr. Ms. Java 1925-1942 VOC Ship Surabaya Planned Builds: Young America Diorama - scale 1:3000 Future Builds: KPM ship "MS Musi." Zuiderzee Botter - scale 1:25. VOC Jacht in a 6" lamp, Buginese fishing Prauw. Hr. Ms. Java - Royal Navy Netherlands Cruiser. Completed Builds: Hr. Ms. O16 Submarine Hr. Ms. O19 - Submarine Royal Navy Netherlands Ship Yard Diorama with Topsail schooner - Friendship Sloop Gwenfra Muscongus Bay Lobster Smack Golden Hind - Cutte Sark (both not in this forum)
Old Collingwood Posted June 16, 2018 Author #17 Posted June 16, 2018 39 minutes ago, Piet said: Ah, a no-see'm boat, I'll join the crowd OC. Looking good! Cheers, Thanks piet welcome aboard OC. Piet, popeye the sailor, cog and 2 others 5 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
cog Posted June 16, 2018 #18 Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) OC, I heard a lot of noice from the West, seems you woke me up frome me beauty sleep with your sledge hammer. Nice choice, if you are painting it with a brush, ... hat off to you mate ... I'd sooner get me a rattle can! Spoiled with an airbrush. Will you be adding parts not in the kit, or replace certain items due to low quality? Time to sit back relax and enjoy the view you'll be modelling ... By the way ... do you ever sleep!!! Edited June 16, 2018 by cog CDW, Old Collingwood, popeye the sailor and 4 others 7 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
Canute Posted June 16, 2018 #19 Posted June 16, 2018 Be interested in seeing how you do up this sub. They appear to be painting challenges. I'n in, too, OC. CDW, cog, Piet and 4 others 7 Quote Ken Started: MS Bounty Longboat, On Hold: Heinkel USS Choctaw paper Down the road: Shipyard HMC Alert 1/96 paper, Mamoli Constitution Cross, MS USN Picket Boat #1 Scratchbuild: Echo Cross Section Member Nautical Research Guild
Old Collingwood Posted June 16, 2018 Author #20 Posted June 16, 2018 7 hours ago, cog said: OC, I heard a lot of noice from the West, seems you woke me up frome me beauty sleep with your sledge hammer. Nice choice, if you are painting it with a brush, ... hat off to you mate ... I'd sooner get me a rattle can! Spoiled with an airbrush. Will you be adding parts not in the kit, or replace certain items due to low quality? Time to sit back relax and enjoy the view you'll be modelling ... By the way ... do you ever sleep!!! Hi mate. My sleep patterns are all over the place, but I tend to be up into the early hours as the wife has troubles with her sleep and I like to keep an eye on her, so I have my laptop on in bed. OC. Canute, Jack12477, Piet and 4 others 7 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 16, 2018 Author #21 Posted June 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Canute said: Be interested in seeing how you do up this sub. They appear to be painting challenges. I'n in, too, OC. Hi Ken, nice having you along. OC. cog, popeye the sailor, lmagna and 3 others 6 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 16, 2018 Author #22 Posted June 16, 2018 In an ideal modeling world this would be what I am aiming for, accustic tiles and all, just dont know how realistic it is at this scale just using brushes. Not one of my pics. OC. Jack12477, Piet, popeye the sailor and 4 others 7 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
cog Posted June 16, 2018 #23 Posted June 16, 2018 Music to my ears ... can't wait to see you pull that one off lmagna, popeye the sailor, Jack12477 and 1 other 4 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
Old Collingwood Posted June 16, 2018 Author #24 Posted June 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, cog said: Music to my ears ... can't wait to see you pull that one off I have a small flexible metal rule type thing with different shapes cut out in it, some squares and circles, might try that. OC, Piet, popeye the sailor, cog and 2 others 5 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
RGL Posted June 17, 2018 #25 Posted June 17, 2018 Scribe into your primer coat perhaps then masking the squares? popeye the sailor, cog, Canute and 3 others 6 Quote Greg
harlequin Posted June 17, 2018 #26 Posted June 17, 2018 morning old boy.....you are just like me....not satisfied with one build on the go......I have bits all over....it is a wonder I can find them all.....my Bellona is very slowly coming together now......good to see a sub on the menu.........I went the other way...upwards...as I was a paratrooper in my youth. CDW, Canute, cog and 3 others 6 Quote
Old Collingwood Posted June 17, 2018 Author #27 Posted June 17, 2018 10 hours ago, RGL said: Scribe into your primer coat perhaps then masking the squares? Hiya greg, that was kind of my thinking the scribing would kind of show the undercoat (well unpainted plastic). OC. lmagna, Canute, Piet and 2 others 5 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 17, 2018 Author #28 Posted June 17, 2018 8 hours ago, harlequin said: morning old boy.....you are just like me....not satisfied with one build on the go......I have bits all over....it is a wonder I can find them all.....my Bellona is very slowly coming together now......good to see a sub on the menu.........I went the other way...upwards...as I was a paratrooper in my youth. Hi mate thanks for looking in great to have you here. OC. popeye the sailor, Piet, lmagna and 3 others 6 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
Old Collingwood Posted June 17, 2018 Author #29 Posted June 17, 2018 I got a bit more time on the bench - these subs have acustic tiles glued onto thier dark grey/black hull, so on many areas the tiles are either missing or not placed, two of these areas are both sides a kind of zig zag pattern that shows the hull color, also down the center line there is a flat black anti-slip walkway. So I have painted these areas with the masked areas as required. Just the two pics. OC. popeye the sailor, Jack12477, Beef Wellington and 8 others 11 Quote Current builds 28mm Battle of Waterloo attack on La Haye Saint Diorama. 1/700 HMS Hood Flyhawk with PE, Resin and Wood Decking. Completed works. Dragon 1/700 HMS Edinburgh type 42 batch 3 Destroyer plastic. HMS Warspite Academy 1/350 plastic kit and wem parts. HMS Trafalgar Airfix 1/350 submarine plastic. Black Pearl 1/72 Revell with pirate crew. Revell 1/48 Mosquito B IV Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IX ICM 1/48 Seafire Mk.III Special Conversion 1/48 Kinetic Sea Harrier FRS1
cog Posted June 17, 2018 #30 Posted June 17, 2018 is that the UK version of the TGV??? Piet, popeye the sailor, lmagna and 1 other 4 Quote Carl "Desperate affairs require desperate measures." Lord Nelson Search and you might find a log ...
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