HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[EdT]

Paint is a lot easier to mask than stain.

 

Ed

[druxey]

True!

[Hubac's Historian]

Okay, Mark, if stain provides the blackened finish you are after, then what about this:

 

First, thoroughly mask off the wales that you want to stain, so that you have a very clean tape line of demarcation between what will remain natural and what will be stained.

 

Next, spray a few mist coats of the same thinned finish you intend for the unplanked lower hull, in order to seal the grain along your line.

 

Next, tape the lower hull right up to the wale taping.

 

Burnish the new tape.

 

Finally, remove the first tape so that you can mist light coats of your stain onto the wales until they are sufficiently blackened.

 

This is all theoretical, on my part, but this would be an experiment I would try, if I were attempting to blacken my wales with stain.

 

I think that by scribing your line with a sharp knife you are only inviting stain to bleed unevenly into the grain fibers.  I have no experience with doing this, though, so I can only guess.

[SJSoane]

Hubac'sHistorian, that is worth trying; I will experiment with that, including the idea of using an airbrush. With good masking and the hull turned upside down, an airbrush might do the trick.

 

 

Meanwhile, I tried two other finishes, that are getting closer, but not quite yet.

I scribed very deep lines with a scalpel, which seemed to help. Then I taped with Tamiya tape burnished down.

 

The one on the upper left and lower left are both Transtint black dye mixed into General Finishes gel topcoat wipe on urethane, which is my main finish for the natural wood. This was put on with a rag.

 

The one on the lower right is the Speedball black ink used by Ed Tosti for his Naiad project. I used a paint brush. In another test, the Speedball also ran, so I am not sure why I got such a clean line on this experiment. Before risking the entire hull, I will play with these a little more until I get reliable results every time.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark. how about air brushing the paint on. Tape up what you don't want paint on and spray on the paint. You can also cut in above the tape edge and it will stop the spray paint from seeping below the tape. Works good for me. You can even paint dye this way. Practice on scrap till you get it they way you want it. As they say practice makes perfect.Here is a space shuttle I painted and built from a kit. I think it came out not to bad. Gary

[SJSoane]

Hi Gary,

 

Nice! I have always been fascinated by the shuttle. 

I have an airbrush, and I think it is time to dust it off and try it with stains.

Do you remember what you painted your wales with? They look great.

 

Mark

[druxey]

A deep cut line is necessary for it to be effective. The depth is roughly equivalent to the penetration depth of the dye. Also, I brush dye only to within about 1/16" of that cut-line. The dye spreads to hit the line and then, hopefully, not beyond it!

[SJSoane]

ah, hah! So forget the tape, which I was finding difficult to match up to the scored line anyway. I'll try it.

[SJSoane]

Last night I was looking at various images I have of the Bellona's bow, and suddenly realized that the paint on the stem is dark blue, not the black of the wales. This changes everything! I will need to paint the blue with opaque acrylic paint for the friezes, and I can do the same for the stem. So I can cut in a clean line with paint, rather than staining black and worrying about the stain running.

 

It never hurts to look at the sources again...

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Mark - contemporary models seem to be a mix of blue and black on the stem so it seems 'correct' to go with either, but you are correct that the Bellona model is blue, the view below of the same model shows it a little more clearly.

 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Jason. I have looked at those photos for years, and I always assumed the stem was the same as the wales, and the bluish tint was just a different light falling on the black vertical surface. It does appear now to be the same blue as is seen behind the friezes.

[druxey]

Sometimes the fore and aft surfaces of the head timbers are also painted blue - or black.

[Mike Y]

Sorry for bad photo quality, but it illustrates same style - dark blue and black colours. 

From the Maritime Museum of Hamburg.

 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Mike, this is very helpful, and a very beautiful model. This is a good reason to visit the Hamburg museum, which I have not yet had the opportunity to do.

 

Mark

[Thistle17]

Outstanding shop organization and at the street level to boot. I miss my old shop's access to that level.  Your efforts will continue to pay off and responding to Michael Mott's comment about "at my age...." I would offer we are not pushing up clover yet so we all need to keep going! It's like a poster I used to see on the workout room at work. "There is no finish line"!

I am inspired by what you have achieved.

Joe

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Joe, for your kind thoughts.  Having just recently retired, I am enthusiastic about having more time in the shop, and yet I have an increasing awareness of more years behind me than in front of me. It helps keep me focused on making stuff as long as I can!

 

Mark

[Wintergreen]

Mark, about the bleeding issue... I've read, not tried, that after the masking tape is applied one can apply a layer of varnish over the edge of the tape. If the varnish bleeds it will be close to invisible and it will also seal any opportunity for the black to bleed. The varnish needs to be matte or satin (i.e. non glossy) so that it blends with the natural finish of underlying wood, but that I think, comes without saying.

 

Still a lovely model you're building.

[druxey]

Wintergreen: this advice is good for paint as it stays on the surface. However, dye sinks into the wood and along the grain, so will travel under the varnished tape edge.

[SJSoane]

Work proceeds on the starboard wales, with only three planks--the most twisty of all--to go. While the uppermost one is steamed and clamped against the hull waiting to dry, here is an update.

 

I have decided to mock up a single gunport and adjacent wales, to see how I am going to manage controlling the red stain around the port, against the plain external planking and the black wales. Like the black wales, I am concerned about the red stain around the gunports running into the grain of the adjacent planks, and only a test will tell me.

 

I did have a little more success using the Transtint black dye mixed into the urethane clear finish. Rather than dealing with a watery liquid like shoe dye or ink, this allows me to pad on a tinted gel. And it has the same level of matt as the uncolored finish. 

 

I will also experiment with airbrushing the blue acrylic paint onto the stem, and also onto the upper works where the friezes will go. That should help me keep a clean line. I am thinking about ordering the Caldercraft Admiralty paint "French Blue", unless someone has had a bad experience with this paint, or thinks it is not the right color. They are supposed to match the colors around Nelson's time, which is almost a half century after the Bellona; I can only assume the blue color would not have changed, for lack of any further evidence. I have only the second Bellona model to go on, for a match.

 

Mark

 

[druxey]

I'd be highly wary of using dye on the ends of planks at the ports. It will be all but impossible to seal the grain sufficiently and yet allow the dye to penetrate - which is the whole purpose of dye as opposed to paint. Perhaps consider using acrylic paint or adhering pre-dyed paper instead?

 

As for blue, the colors seen on contemporary models vary from a greenish-blue to a deep blue-black and everything between. Pick your poison! My personal preference is Humbrol matt 25.

[SJSoane]

Hi druxey,

 

Yes, that is my anxiety about the ports. I have really liked the red dye on already installed parts (like in my member picture), and I wonder if I can color match an acrylic paint just for the gun ports?

 

I will track down Humbrol matt 25, and also pick up a few samples of red paint to see how they might match to my existing red dye. I long ago bought a range of Floquil reds and blues, but alas not enough of any one to complete the project. That is what I get for taking so long on this project!

 

Mark

[Amalio]

I really like the way you understand naval modeling, and the way you work.
Thank you very much

[SJSoane]

Thank you, Amalio, for your kind thoughts. I have mostly learned from books and especially from the great modellers on this site. And a lot of mistakes!

 

I am having to carve/shape the last two planks, and while taking a break from this, I looked more carefully at where paint/stain will meet edges and surfaces around the gunports. I have drawn a little sketch to think this through. I was surprised to see that the red paint comes over the top of the spirketting, meeting the black of the spirketting on a scribed line; and where the wales cross the last two gunports, I will have the black of the wales meeting the red of the gunport on the edge between the two, on the same piece of wood. And, the edges of the clear outboard planking will meet red paint on their outside corners at the edge of the port. These are the real test points of whether stain will work, or whether I need to edge these points with paint matched to the red stain elsewhere. Now I know what my test pieces need to look like.

 

Mark

 

 

[garyshipwright]

2 hours ago, SJSoane said:

Thank you, Amalio, for your kind thoughts. I have mostly learned from books and especially from the great modellers on this site. And a lot of mistakes!

 

I am having to carve/shape the last two planks, and while taking a break from this, I looked more carefully at where paint/stain will meet edges and surfaces around the gunports. I have drawn a little sketch to think this through. I was surprised to see that the red paint comes over the top of the spirketting, meeting the black of the spirketting on a scribed line; and where the wales cross the last two gunports, I will have the black of the wales meeting the red of the gunport on the edge between the two, on the same piece of wood. And, the edges of the clear outboard planking will meet red paint on their outside corners at the edge of the port. These are the real test points of whether stain will work, or whether I need to edge these points with paint matched to the red stain elsewhere. Now I know what my test pieces need to look like.

 

Mark

 

 

Hi Mark. Nice job sir and I must say your  drawing our outstanding. Mine comes out looking like a first grader in art class. Keep up the good work sir. Gary

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

1 hour ago, garyshipwright said:

Hi Mark. Nice job sir and I must say your  drawing our outstanding.

 

Hi Gary,  did you know the family name of Mark, it is Boudriot.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Gary, for the comments. It is kind of hard to realize now, but I learned to draw before CAD was invented or at least used in architecture offices. I am a dinosaur! Gaetan, I haven't checked my family tree lately....🙂

 

It took pretty much all day, but I got the second to last plank in on the wales. It has a very sharp twist athwartships, and a good bend aft. I could not get a clamp on the end for love or money to steam it to shape. And I could not imagine a former that would deal with the springback accurately. So I fayed a double wedge shaped piece onto the inner surface, fitted it to the hull surface, and sanded down the outer surface to parallel. The join is on the under surface of the wale, where hopefully no one will ever look and the black stain will cover it (as long as none of you give away the secret).

 

The final piece is even worse, and I can't visualize yet exactly how it lands and what its aft edge looks like. The second Bellona model shows a sharp corner at the lower, aftmost edge (see photo), but the sheer drawing shows it gracefully rounded. I will put a big block against the location tomorrow and start carving until it looks right.

 

Mark

 

 

[druxey]

Nice sketches, as others have already noted, Mark. 

 

That problematic last piece was apparently shaped rather than bent in the shipyard, so you are in good company. Carve the inner surface first, fit the joint, attach, then carve/file/sand the outer surface to shape, would be a good strategy. Good luck with it!

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I totally agree with Druxey, this piece had to be shaped, how could you bend almost 180 degrees on few feet a beam of few inches thick.

Also it is much easier to fit this piece with the model upside down.

[Mark P]

Greetings everyone;

 

I have seen references to this last piece of wale planking being sawn to fit,  not bent,  so I am sure you are all on the right track.  I would do it exactly as Druxey suggests,  get the inside to fit first.

 

All the best, 

 

Mark P

[SJSoane]

I spent a happy day carving the last plank. However, in trying to make everything fair together, I noticed that a gap appeared to be forming between the curved end of the wale (see the curve in the drawing below), and the hull framing itself. I thought I had messed up my framing somehow. But then I looked at the photo of the second Bellona model below, and noticed that the wale shows its full thickness along the counter and along that lower curve, but not on the lower edge. The planks are clearly coming around  that curve, and then tucking in behind the wale at the curve itself. If this were not the case, the short little planks at the curve would be covering up 4 inches of the wale, which it does not appear to do.

 

So, I am assuming for now, until someone tells me otherwise, the wale does indeed stand away from the hull at that curve, enough for the lower hull planking to die into it. I have had a devil of a time visualizing what is going on at this junction...

 

Mark