Zeehaen 1639 by flying_dutchman2 - 1:37.5 - Dutch Fluit of Explorer Abel J. Tasman

[flying_dutchman2]

Phil and Mark, thank you both for the advice. I shall built up the hips. Not too much because it will look weird. I'll use the models in the book as references. 

 

Marcus 

[flying_dutchman2]

Finished the first layer of planking.

Next I will measure the skinny hip area and see how much to build it up. I will create a stern piece of 5 bulkheads (#5 thru 25) and use that to build it up, so if there are mistakes I can easily undo it and I will not wreck the model if I did it on that. 

Marcus 

[flying_dutchman2]

After thoroughly studying the lines plan and making templates in every combination, taking the templates and lining them up where they are supposed to be, I've come to the conclusion that everything checks out.

Just to make sure I checked every book,  article and research paper that have pictures of Fluits and came to the conclusion that the models in the Merchant book are very different than some of the articles 'and' the Abel Tasman book.

The above picture shows that the hips are smaller than the Merchant book, but looks like my model. 

Abel Tasman book 

 

 

My model is similar to the Abel Tasman model. The hips on both models are smaller than the Merchant book models.

What did I learn from this?

Bofore freaking out. 😱. 😭, check out all your sources. Ships evolved throughout the years. I don't have enough information on the topic, but I know the fluit changed in hip size and length over the years.

 

There was a type of Fluit for every country and every type of industry the Dutch traded with. I wrote something about that in the 1st or 2nd post.

 

Next, I need to hollow more out of the inside of the hull so the decks fit.

Sand the outside smooth.

 

Marcus 

[cog]

Marcus,

Commercial shipping needed space, so it is not strange those have far wider hips, which implied more stowage, than their earlier versions, at least if those were prone to be attacked, for then you'd prefer speed and agility over slow bulk shipping (or heavy armament if a slow sailor in troubled times). Maybe you should take a look at the periods in which both shapes were used and might find an explanation in that.

[flying_dutchman2]

On 11/7/2019 at 12:30 AM, cog said:

Maybe you should take a look at the periods in which both shapes were used and might find an explanation in that.

Friday I spent almost all day researching the above. Out of numerous articles that I have read (so far), not one discusses this. But I did find other interesting info about Fluits. How they are related to hekboten, katten en boyers. 

Marcus 

[cog]

And how is that?

[Ab Hoving]

Hello Marcus,

I want to make a few remarks about your planking. Sorry I didn't keep up with this thread but seeing your planking only now you deserve some clues because of your impressive drive to build this difficult model.

 

The first thing you should let go is thinking that a ship can be planked with straight strips from fore to aft. It is a wide-spread misunderstanding caused by kit makers that straight strips can plank a round model. In reality there is not a single straight plank in a ship's outside planking. Take wider strips and shape them according to the shape of the ship: they look like crooked sabres. Never force the wood, treat it gently and it will do what you want without splitting or breaking. Twisting wood in different directions for instance is a proces that can only be done by applying heat, and only after you have made sure that the piece of plank you are applying really fits its destination. You show my Zeehaen model from the pictures in the book, but if you really study those pictures, you should see that every strake of planking consists of at least three separate pieces of wood and mostly more. Bending wood with heat (for instance a flame of a candle) is a technique you can master if you apply pressure to the hot wood and feeling that it gives way at a certain moment. That's how you get the shape. If you can mount the plank without using force, that's when you are on the right track.

Secondly the mounting of the wales is, like you said yourself, crucial. If they are in the right location and have the right curve, very little can go wrong. Now look at your side view and ask yourself: is the curve of my whale flawless? I don't think you can say yes. You gave it a lot of attention, but you missed it slightly. A solution could be another technique: dress the unplanked hull with a wide strip of paper and draw the lines of the wales on it until you finally feel you have the shape right. Don't decide at once. Try to find a satisfying shape and put the model away for a few days. Then look at it again and repeat the proces. If you are satisfied with the run, take off the paper and cut the wales. You will see how curved the shape is. It also helps measuring if you draw a waterline on the unplanked hull for reference. It diminishes the problem of orientation and gives you a landmark to work from. 

This is really challenging stuff. I can honestly tell you that I'm wrestling with the shape of the hips of fluits up to today, even though I built quite a few. Recently I was trying my hand on a 'wadconvooier', a small armed admiralty vessel, used to protect merchants on the 'Zuiderzee'. It is not a ship type, but rather a function, for which several types were used. One of them really looks like a fluit, but shows another type of rig. I thought I could use old plans for another fluit I made by rescaling the draught. I was wrong. The result was another candidate for the dustbin where it is now, because the hips were placed too low:

Finding the right curves is the most challenging part of the proces. And there is only one way to learn: the hard way.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Ab Hoving

[flying_dutchman2]

Ab, 

Thank you for the constructive criticism.

In your opinion do I need to remove the 1st layer of planking and start all over again? 

 

If not, I am planking the 2nd layer per your instruction. 

 

I did force the planks at the bow area.

I was trying to copy the planking of the models in the Merchant book. I usually don't do this. While planking my Utrecht and Boyer, no plank was forced. 

 

You are correct about the three bottom installed wales. There is a slight curve from the stern to about the middle of the ship, then they are straight, going slightly up and ending in abrupt corners of the bow. I measured several times to where they were supposed to be and drew the lines on the bulkheads. I will definitely change this in the second planking and get a better curve towards the middle of the ship. 

 

One can see from the area near the keel that the planks are not one piece. That is not possible. 

Marcus 

 

 

 

[Ab Hoving]

Glad you take it this way Marcus.

I didn't realize you planned a double planking. In that case I would do my best to sand the first planking up to a degree that nothing is left of the irregularities you caused by rather random planking. I would even go as far as using filler to get a smooth and even surface to lay the outer planking on.

You might consider a layer of white paint so you can draw the lines of the planking directly on the hull.

I don't know how you want to attach that planking. Just glue? 

It may be a bit late for an advice, but I think the use of balsa wood for spacers between frames is rather useless. I don't consider balsa wood as wood. You cannot use nails or dowels in that stuff. Any kind of wood would have been better, as it would have given you the opportunity to choose the locations of nails or dowels. Now you can only use your plywood frames. Plywood is useless in modelbuilding too. Another fairytale from the kit business.

Where you stand now, you might just as well have built a solid hull, carving it into the right shape. Or you will have to give real building a try: Start with keel and posts and build your frames and planking like in the real thing. Have you read Harold Underhill's Plank-on-frame Models? I can recommend it.

Ab

[G.L.]

Hi Marcus,

 

What Ab mentioned before is right: it is impossible to plank a hull (and certainly a round one as these of a fluit) in a neat way with only straight planks. May I draw your attention to an in my opinion excellent course which is going on this forum on planking a (half) hull? It shows an easy way to determine the shape and the curve of hull planks. => Half Hull Planking Project

[flying_dutchman2]

5 hours ago, G.L. said:

May I draw your attention to an in my opinion excellent course which is going on this forum on planking a (half) hull? It shows an easy way to determine the shape and the curve of hull planks. => Half Hull Planking Project

Toni is a member of my local club and in several meetings she has shown how planking a half hull is done. 

Marcus 

[flying_dutchman2]

Ab, 

I plan to sand the hull like you mentioned. Get rid of all the irregularities. The 1st layer is 2mm thick so I can sand a lot. With the Boyer I had many irregularities and sanded the heck out of it, added filler, sanded it smooth and added a 2nd layer.

 

I took a piece of paper and glued several lengths together and layed it lengthwise on the hull. Drew a wale on it and put the ship away. Come back later on. 

 

I didn't think of it about the balsa. Come to think of it one is limited where the dowels go. Many people both in my local club and here on this site use balsa as filler. When I built the Boyer it was recommended that I use balsa. In the past I used whatever wood I had. My Utrecht is rather heavy because of the filler wood. 

 

My next ship (Heemskerck) will be plank on frame, no balsa or plywood. The ship will be heavy. 

 

Yes, I have heard of Underhill's books. 

Marcus 

[flying_dutchman2]

Been sanding the 1st layer of planking and adding filler as I sand areas that need it. 

Most of my sanding is done in an unheated garage and when it is dry outside I bring the belt sander and sandpaper outside and do it on the back patio. Tomorrow till Thursday is going to be dry so I can get a lot done. 

Marcus 

[Blue Pilot]

This is a very interesting ship it will be a great model when you finish her.

[flying_dutchman2]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:27 PM, Blue Pilot said:

This is a very interesting ship it will be a great model when you finish her.

That it will be and it is also one of the reasons I am building it. Like I mentioned before, it is the most challenging ship I have ever built 

Marcus 

[Blue Pilot]

Yeah the lines of the bulkheads and that stern look like it will really be a challenge.  

[flying_dutchman2]

Been sanding the Fluit on the in and outside of the hull. 

One of my delema is going to be on how to figure out where the different decks are going to be. I have made many templates to guess where they would be. 

 

I've never built a "more than one deck" ship before. So I had a thought. I could cut off the sides of the hull to where the lower deck starts and then put the lower deck in and built up the bulkheads and the planking to the next deck and so on. 

 

Any suggestions? 

 

Marcus 

[mtaylor]

The easiest way might be to mark off the top of the bulwarks/frames and then work down from there.  Are you going to use deck beams?  If so, mark your lines as such for the bottom of the beam on the hull measured from the top of the bulwark/frame.  Then you can run your beam clamps to those lines.

[Ab Hoving]

I usually start with the waterline. You can simply do that by placing the model on an improvised stand and scribe the waterline with a pencil on a block. Then you can take the hight of the decks on several locations from the draught and mark them on the outside of the hull.

[flying_dutchman2]

Mark and Ab, thank you both for your suggestions and I plan to install deck beams as I need the curve of the deck. 

I plan to install all decks. There are a few decks you won't see but I am doing it for practice. 

Marcus 

[flying_dutchman2]

Measured where the waterline is to be and from there on, go up to measure where the other decks will be.

The colored push pins depict where the different decks will be located. 

 

Started creating beams for the lower deck (which will not be visible) and before it goes in I need to measure where the masts will be. 

 

Marcus 

[Ab Hoving]

Good!

Perhaps you might consider to do the measuring from the waterline to the wales as well. It might prevent a bad curve...

[flying_dutchman2]

Took drastic measures and removed the planking between bulkhead 5 and 10. 

 

Redid the planking so they would extend way over the rudder. 

 

Combination of wood glue and sawdust was used to fill in the gaps. Most of this will be sanded away. 

Both sides are done and drying overnight. 

 

 

I have been having a lot of trouble with the stern. When you look at the Fluit from the top and side there is nothing wrong. But when you look from where the tiller goes into the ship, there is a whole lot of wrong. 

 

The ship overall has all the curves the way the plans show me and it all looks pleasing to the eye. Nothing is abrupt. The bottom 3 wales are placed correctly and the upper 2 need to be higher in the stern area than they are now. This will be done with the second layer of planking. 

BUT (here it comes) 

When I planked the bulkheads towards the stern, it didn't end up in a point above the rudder - see below-, that is the area that makes the boat look way off. 

 Top view. Tiller rests on the rudder post and you can see I am way off, by 12mm.

 

Have to figure out how I can move it all towards the middle. 

I don't want to trash the model and start all over again or remove the planking from bulkheads 30 to 5.

 

One area where the tiller goes into the ship there is a 90 degree curve opening. It is bigger than the plans and what the pictures of Fluits in books show. 

 

All in all the further I get into this build the more I think that I should have build the 'cat' first as it looks somewhat like a fluit. Setting that thought aside....... I will continue with this build. 

Marcus 

 

 

[Ab Hoving]

Hi Marcus,

 

Drastic, indeed.

First: do you have a symmetry problem? Maybe it's the picture, but it looks like one side is closer to the middle than the other.

Now your problem: you are making the hole for the helm much too big. Your planking ends way too early. You have to stretch the end of the planking as far as you can. Maybe things get clearer with a view on the unplanked stern of the fluit:

 

This 3D representation was made with the help of my great 'partner in crime', Rene Hendrickx.

As you can see the tops of the frame parts rise above the highest wale, so your planking should continue there as well. That will close the gap for a big part. Then you will end up with something like this:

 

I hope this helps.

Ab

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Ab Hoving

[G.L.]

21 minutes ago, Ab Hoving said:

 

 

This 3D representation was made with the help of my great 'partner in crime', Rene Hendrickx.

 

 

Ab, can those 3D drawings of Mr Rene Hendrickx be consulted online?

[Ab Hoving]

Not yet.

But the good news is that the Rijksdienst voor Cultureel Erfgoed (Governmental Service for Cultural Inheritance) is almost finished with the preparations for bringing the 3D construction of Witsen's pinas online and there are plans to do the same with the fluit. There are still some barriers to overcome, but work, executed by a small firm called Tijdlab, is progressing fast and we hope to present the first online version in spring.

I started pushing the project of the 3D presentation of the pinas (which is the only Dutch seventeenth century vessel we have all the data of) in 2006, but actually the reconstruction of the ship after contemporary data goes back to 1980, when I laid my hands on Witsen's book for the first time. The plans can be found here: https://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/AbHoving.htm. The 3D work started in 2013, after the first initiatives stranded because of the financial crisis in 2008. I have good hope that we will be online early 2020.

So be patient.

Here an image of a walk on deck of the pinas:

[amateur]

I'm afraid there is a symmetry problem: I went trough all the pics, and the right side is consistently closer to the heartline than the left side, irrespective of camera-viewpoint....

I cant make out whether it is just the top of the aft frame out of line, a drawing error in the aft frame or something else.

 

Jan

 

 

 

 

[flying_dutchman2]

Ab, 

Yes, there is a symmetry problem Thanks a lot for the 3D designs. The second picture is a lot of help. 

I will either pull the planking further out or rip everything out between bulkhead 5 and 10 and redo the horizontal planking. 

 

I will probably take it all out between bulkhead 5 and 10 and start over, (sorry, thinking out loud). 

 

Jan, 

You are correct in your observation of the right side to be closer to the hartline. I can't change that anymore. 

 

Marcus 

[Ab Hoving]

Remember Marcus: many people ran into the same problems with - as you do here. It is a very tricky shape to make. Many gave up. To tell you the truth, I discarded a small fluit-like model myself a month ago. (Edit: I just discovered that I told this story earlier. Sorry for that. It's the age, you know 🙂 ) I was trying my hand at a rather unknown type of ship, a 'wadconvooier', a small armed vessel to convoy merchants on the Zuiderzee between Amsterdam and the inlets between the islands up north the country. All I have as a source are some contemporary pictures, showing different vessels with the same function. On some pictures the type looks like a Statenjacht with an additional mizzen mast, on others it resounds the shape of a fluit. Nevertheless I (also) tried my hand at the fluit-like type and tried to get the widest point of the hull at the hight of the upper wale. I seriously failed because I used a design for another fluit, which was incorrect in this context. The model disappeared into the dustbin and I started anew.

This is the Statenjacht-like type of the wadconvooier.

 

To the left another 'watte convoyer' of unsure type. Probably fluit-like.

 

Here an obvious fluit-like type. Mind the widest point at the second wale, where the man in the boat points at, as if he wants to warn me....

 

And here my first try, with a shape I did not like. As you can see the widest point is way too low. So it ended in the dustbin.

 

And here the second try. The shape of the 'hips' comes closer to the one on the painting, but I'm still not completely convinced. This one might end up in the dustbin too...

 

All I want to say Marcus, is that there is nothing to be ashamed of if you remove parts of your model, or even if you start all over again. Because remember, a mistake made in the beginning of the building process is like a pregnancy: it will only get more and more visible. 🙂

 

Now you still have the chance to improve your build. Take it.

Ab

Edited December 21, 2019 by Ab Hoving

[amateur]

Sorry, that I didn't make my remark far earlier, I suspected it before, but I thought that it was the pic....:(

When you are goung to rip the planking off between frames 5-10, is there any way to ensure that although offf-center, the stern will be vertical? In the last pics it looks as if the last two frames are tilted to the left, resulting in an asymmetry, but also a 'non vertical' stern. 

An off-center stern is a pity, but from a distance not very visible, a non-vertical stern does attract attention (in  a non-wanted way).

 

Jan

Edited December 21, 2019 by amateur