USS Gwin (DD-433) by Egilman - DML/Dragon - 1/350th scale - PLASTIC

[Egilman]

The USS Gwin, DD-433, an early Gleaves class destroyer... One of the newest destroyers in the fleet prior to the start of WWII.... The Gwin did not survive the war. She was one of the four destroyers of Destroyer Division 22 that were assigned to escort the USS Hornet in Task Force 18 when she left Norfolk in March 1942 to go bomb Japan.... That's correct the Doolittle raid....

 

As configured in early 1942, (and during the raid) she had 4 5"38 caliber guns 10 21" torpedo tubes, (in quintuple mounts) 12 .50 caliber water cooled machine guns, two stern depth charge racks and 4 "K" guns. (depth charge throwers) ..... She weighed in at 1640 tons displacement, (2530 tons full load) was 348’ 4" long with a beam of 36 ft 1 in and was capable of making 37 knots..... Painted in Ms 12 modified camouflage scheme.....

 

The USS Gwin departed Pearl Harbor 23 May 1942 with Marine reinforcements for Midway and returned to port 1 June. So she missed the battle of Midway, but she was present to help aid in the attempt to salvage the USS Yorktown. Gwin was close aboard the Yorktown and USS Hammann DD-412 when they were torpedoed by the I-168, she observed the Hammann go down as well as the Yorktown the next day... The USS Gwin carried 102 survivors she rescued from the two ships to Pearl Harbor, arriving 10 June 1942.

 

On the 15th of June she departed along with the Hornet's task force to the Guadalcanal area to support the landings there, she was one of the destroyers detached from the task force to escort the troops ships to their landing zones and patrolling the "Slot" against japanese attempts to reinforce their forces... 

 

Assigned to these duties she missed the first naval battle of Guadalcanal.....

 

On 13 November 1942, Gwinn was assigned to the screening force of TF 64 consisting of the Gwin, USS Walke DD-416, USS Preston DD-379 and USS Benham DD-397. the Battleships USS Washington and South Dakota formed the striking power of the force...

The four U.S. destroyers were placed in the vanguard of the formation and began engaging the Japanese Cruiser/Destroyer group of ships at 23:22. The Japanese responded effectively with accurate gunfire and torpedoes, and the destroyers Walke and Preston were hit and sunk within 10 minutes with heavy loss of life. The destroyer Benham had part of her bow blown off by a torpedo and had to retreat, and destroyer Gwin was hit in her engine room and put out of the fight. The Gwin was unable to hang around for the finish as she was damaged too severely with a hit destroying her aft engine room and a hit to her fantail setting it on fire. She endured all this while attacking a much superior enemy force with her burning depth charges detonating as she fought... She and her sisters were credited with putting several Japanese units out of the fight...  However, the destroyers had done the job they were assigned as screens for the battleships, absorbing the initial impact of contact with the enemy, although at great cost. Admiral Lee ordered the retirement of Benham and Gwin.... (benham sank the next day) The Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal became a US victory both tactically and strategically.

 

The Gwinn was ordered to PHNY for repairs and eventually to MINY where she was completely overhauled......

This is a photo of her tied up at Mare Island Navy Yard December 19th, 1942 just after her arrival..... The only destroyer to survive the second naval battle of Guadalcanal.....

 

Returning to the Solomon Islands battle area She resumed her escort duties. On 7 April 1943 she was escorting reinforcements to Rendova Island and was opened up on by the enemy shore batteries firing from Munda Island, straddled by the first salvo, she again had her aft engine room knocked out of action, but she stayed in the battle turning and laying a smokescreen to cover the landing  and returning fire on the shore batteries, which were soon silenced. She also shot down several attacking aircraft during the engagement. Rendova soon became the major PT boat operating station in the area... (where a young Lt Kennedy and PT-109 would soon be stationed)

 

After repairs the Gwin escorted a reinforcement echelon from Guadalcanal to Rendova, and missed the battle of Kula Gulf, but quickly raced up the slot to rescue 73 survivors from the Light Cruiser USS Helena CL-50 who was sunk in the battle..... Gwin was then assigned to Destroyer Squadron 12, which was assigned as the rear covering force for Admiral Ainsworth's Task Force 18 and went with the Task Force north into Kula Gulf to intercept a heavy Japanese reinforcement column coming down the slot.... 

 

During the battle known as the Battle of Kolombangara, (or, Second Battle of Kula Gulf by some) after the initial engagements by the five destroyers in the lead force, Admiral Ainsworth turned to starboard after closing the range to bring his full complement of main guns to bear on the Japanese force, He turned straight into a salvo of long lance torpedoes fired from the Japanese ships in anticipation of his turn, his cruisers Honolulu and St. Louis were both damaged and forced to retire but the Gwin wasn't as lucky. The Gwin was hit amidship by a long lance just forward of the #1 torpedo mount where it detonated. It destroyed her forward boiler room and blew out the bulkheads to the forward engine room and aft boiler room..... Fortunately for her crew, it didn't break her keel....... Damage control fought a long 7 hour fight to keep her afloat but at 09:00 the next morning the USS Ralph Talbot DD-390 took off her crew and scuttled her.... 

 

Of the seven ships of Task Force 18 that set out in March of 1942 into harms way, only three survived the war, by mid 1943 the rest were underwater..... This is the start of a tribute build of five of the ships that comprised Task Force 18, The USS Gwin DD-433, She will serve as the exemplar to represent all four of the destroyers of Destroyer Division 22; USS Gwin, DD-433, USS Meredith DD-434, USS Grayson DD-435 and USS Monssen DD-436.... 

 

Next up, the Kit....

 

EG

 

Credit for the historical commentary go to several online historical archives and credit for several of the pics to Rick E Davis a noted US naval historian and researcher.... Thank you....

 

 

 

[lmagna]

Going to be an interesting build.

 

Not only is this class of destroyer underrepresented in modeling, the Second Battle of Guadalcanal and the actions of the USS Washington and sacrifices of the destroyers involved have also been mostly pushed to the side.

 

In a matter of less than thirty minutes the Washington inflicted as many as 20 main gun and 17 5" gun hits on the Japanese fast battleship Kirishima almost causing her main forward magazines to explode, (Like happened in the Bismarck/Hood battle). The Kirishima rolled over and sank a little over three hours later and became the only battleship loss caused directly by another battleships gunnery since the Hood was sunk by the Bismarck, (Using the term "battleship" in regards to the Battle cruiser Hood). She was also the last battleship lost in history to another battleship in a purely gun engagement. 
 

  

[Canute]

EG, I'm in.

 

For some background, the naval battles around Guadalcanal were nicely covered by James Hornfischer in "Neptune's Inferno. I will describe that whole series as a knife fight inside a telephone booth.

[Edwardkenway]

Count me in, I feel I'm going to be learning a great deal of the US Navy of the WW2 Pacific campaign😁 👍

[Old Collingwood]

I'm here too.

 

OC.

[Jack12477]

About time you guys showed up, it's been pretty lonely over here in the corner of the foc'sle 😉😉😉😉 ! 

[Canute]

Don't forget, there were some RNAS ships in the mix, too.

[Edwardkenway]

1 hour ago, Jack12477 said:

About time you guys showed up, it's been pretty lonely over here in the corner of the foc'sle 😉😉😉😉 ! 

Come up on deck Jack they're just doling out the grog rations. 

 

1 hour ago, Canute said:

Don't forget, there were some RNAS ships in the mix, too.

Was that the Australian and New Zealand navies? I knew they were involved in Singapore and Malaysia but didn't know the helped out the US Navy .

[Old Collingwood]

Mark will be along with the pop corn later  - he now owns a  Huge  pop corn maker, that might have to sit on the deck also.😃

 

OC.

[lmagna]

3 hours ago, Canute said:

Don't forget, there were some RNAS ships in the mix, too.

Although there were certainly RNAS and RNZN ships in the theater of operations, and in a number of cases even involved in some of the battles in the Solomon's I have been unable to find any indication that there were any in the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. 

 

I know you are well read in this area of history Ken, probably better read than I, can you correct me in this? 

[mtaylor]

6 hours ago, Jack12477 said:

About time you guys showed up, it's been pretty lonely over here in the corner of the foc'sle 😉😉😉😉 ! 

 

Well, there's your problem....hiding.  

[Jack12477]

44 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

 

Well, there's your problem....hiding.  

Kinda hard to hide on a crewless ship.😁

[Canute]

HMAS Australia and Canberra were at Savo. Canberra was sunk there. No mention of any other Allied ships in any later actions in that theater.  Tassafaronga is the last engagement covered in Neptune's Inferno. The book covers Savo the night of  August 9 thru Tassafaronga on November 30.

 

Both sides lost 24 ships each over the time period covered.

 

Now I'm going to have to re-read that book. So much interesting stuff.

[Egilman]

1 hour ago, Canute said:

HMAS Australia and Canberra were at Savo. Canberra was sunk there. No mention of any other Allied ships in any later actions in that theater.  Tassafaronga is the last engagement covered in Neptune's Inferno. The book covers Savo the night of  August 9 thru Tassafaronga on November 30.

 

Both sides lost 24 ships each over the time period covered.

 

Now I'm going to have to re-read that book. So much interesting stuff.

The HMNZS Leander, a light Cruiser of the New Zealand Navy, was at the Battle of Kolombangara as a part of Admiral Ainsworth's Task Group 36.1 Took a shell hit from the IJN Jintsu and also took one of the Japanese torpedoes, she was sent home and repaired at Auckland and and then was sent to Boston Naval Yard for a full rebuild which took almost a year, she never served in a forward battle area again, eventually being scrapped in 1950....

[Egilman]

Welcome everyone, Lou, Ken, Ed, OC, Jack and Mark welcome aboard almost everyone's here!!!

 

Plenty of seats available, no need to hide out behind the depth charges, just remember to salute the flag as you come aboard gentlemen....

 

Still collecting parts and paint for her so it will be a bit before she starts but I'm getting her ready to slide down the ways....

 

EG

 

(remember now, I promised you all a floaty thing, I only hope I don't muck it up, 1/350th photo etch you know)

[lmagna]

My understanding was that in 1942 there were three HMAS ships attached to the Guadalcanal theater as Escort, (Task Group 62.2) these ships were the Heavy cruisers HMAS Australia, Canberra, and light cruiser Hobart The Heavy cruiser USS Chicago was also part of this task group. Of these, the Canberra was sunk off Salvo island in August 1942 at the first battle of Salvo Island in the early stages of the Guadalcanal campaign. None of these or any other Australian or New Zealand ships as far as I can tell were involved in the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal on the night of 14/15 November 1942 even though they may have been in the theater.

 

One must remember Task Force 64 involved in the battle of 14/15 November were ships that had been hurriedly thrown together at the last minute by ADM Halsey as what he could spare after the American losses of the night before. They were in the area, available, and in the case of the destroyers had enough fuel to get the job done against the Japanese fleet that they knew was coming down the Slot. They had never operated together as a unit prior to that night.  

 

Several months later in July 1943, the Hobart, as part of Task Force 74 also took a torpedo from a Japanese submarine putting her out of service until 1945. 

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, lmagna said:

My understanding was that in 1942 there were three HMAS ships attached to the Guadalcanal theater as Escort, (Task Group 62.2) these ships were the Heavy cruisers HMAS Australia, Canberra, and light cruiser Hobart The Heavy cruiser USS Chicago was also part of this task group. Of these, the Canberra was sunk off Salvo island in August 1942 at the first battle of Salvo Island in the early stages of the Guadalcanal campaign. None of these or any other Australian or New Zealand ships as far as I can tell were involved in the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal on the night of 14/15 November 1942 even though they may have been in the theater.

 

One must remember Task Force 64 involved in the battle of 14/15 November were ships that had been hurriedly thrown together at the last minute by ADM Halsey as what he could spare after the American losses of the night before. They were in the area, available, and in the case of the destroyers had enough fuel to get the job done against the Japanese fleet that they knew was coming down the Slot. They had never operated together as a unit prior to that night.  

 

Several months later in July 1943, the Hobart, as part of Task Force 74 also took a torpedo from a Japanese submarine putting her out of service until 1945. 

Yes the Destroyers were chosen simply because they had the most useable fuel aboard. The Washington which was Adm. Lee's flagship was about two miles behind the destroyers with the South Dakota trailing a thousand yards behind.... The destroyers were sent ahead to locate the Japanese battle force and were considered expendable.... the fact that they took down the leading half of the Japanese escort force was an act every bit as brave as the Destroyers of Taffy Three two years later.... The Washington was steaming at 27 knots and was forced to pass the burning wreckage of her screening destroyers, she turned to port to skirt around them. The South Dakota skirted around to starboard putting herself in front of the burning wreckage, a major tactical mistake...... While this was happening, the South Dakota had an electrical failure in her communications system and went momentarily radio silent... but she could still track the Washington ahead of her on radar... At this point the Kirishima, spotting the silhouette of the South Dakota against the burning wreckage, opened fire on her....

Meanwhile over on the Washington, Adm. Lee was in a quandary, He had an unknown battleship 11,000 yards off his starboard bow, and had no contact with the South Dakota...... The South Dakota wasn't appearing on his radar screens cause she was in a radar blind spot behind the Washington due to the position of the Washington's radar antenna mounted on her mast.. (Her radar could not track anything astern of her) And Adm. Lee withheld fire even though he was in perfect firing position against the unknown battleship plainly off the starboard quarter at almost point blank range..... The Kirishima was completely unaware of the position of the Washington cause the Washington when turning to port to skirt the destroyer wreckage turned into a rain front that was moving across the area and for all intents and purposes was completely invisible to lookouts at night.... The Kirishima locking onto the silhouette of the South Dakota was firing on her with her forward batteries.... As the South Dakota came under fire, (not hit yet) her chief engineer did a very stupid thing, the electrical short that was blowing fuses, still hadn't been located yet but since they were taking fire he shoved a 3/4 inch steel bolt in the place of the fuse and closed the circuit. the steel bolt could take a lot more load than a simple fuse and it lasted just long enough to warm up it's radios enough to inform Adm. Lee that they were taking fire and were maneuvering to return fire. Well, that bolt lasted long enough to fuse almost every electrical system on the battleship in series.... There was a spark filled boom in the electrical feed panel room, and every electrical system on the ship lost power.... The electrical fuse panel was in hundreds of pieces scattered all over the compartment.... The South Dakota just became a helpless target silhouetted in the flames, right at this point the Kirishima started finding the range.... The South Dakota with no communications, no radar, and no operable guns, turned south and started to retreat, the Kirishima starting out in pursuit....

 

Now the table is set for the last great battleship to battleship engagement of WWII......

 

The Washington, now alone, steaming at 27 knots hidden in a rain squall was the only US naval unit operating at this time in the battle...... Adm. Lee, observing this huge unknown battleship on his starboard quarter, firing at an unknown target to the south, determined it HAD to be an enemy battleship. He ordered a slight turn to starboard and to bring all guns to bear on the unknown battleship to fire in salvo as they cleared the squall......

 

One minute later as the Washington broke into the open, the Kirishima was almost abeam of the Washington with her entire attention on the South Dakota when the Washington's #2 turret let go with the first salvo.... the first salvo bracketed the Kirishima scoring two hits one on the 1st superstructure deck just abaft the flag bridge the other at the 2nd deck level, the third was a very close overshoot... At this point the #1 & #3 turrets let go almost simultaneously three hits were recorded.... It was the first time in naval history that a battleship on the open ocean firing on a maneuvering target, scored hits with all three of her opening salvos....

 

Adm Lee in his after action report, stated that the Washington fired 61 salvos from her three turrets with an estimated 60% hit rate.... The Kirishima, in the space of a few minutes, went from being from a fully functional battleship with a bone in her teeth pursuing a defenseless target, to a defenseless, blazing pile of junk barely able to maneuver using her engines and dangerously unstable... (she eventually rolled over an sank)

 

Adm. Lee was forced to call off the shelling of the Kirishima cause the remaining destroyers of her screen were beginning to get the range on the Washington and she had to dodge a couple of torpedo tracks which she was well able to do... She retired at this point and the battle was over.......

 

This battle was the last stand, we were down to our last ship capable of action, many know about the USS Washington and her well earned victory over the IJN Kirishima, very very few know of the circumstances of it.... A last ditch nothing to lose victory by a last minute, thrown together, group of ships that hadn't really operated together before against one of the most highly trained, experienced and veteran surface combat forces of the Japanese Navy....

 

This was also the first test under combat conditions of the advanced radar guided fire control systems that were mounted in the new fast battleships. they had the ability to "Lock" onto a designated target and still maneuver at will, bo other battleships had this capability. the closest any other navy had to this capability was the royal Navy (but only in train they still relied on manual optical ranging) and the Kreigsmarine on the Bismarck class ships... (but they only had it in elevation, they still relied on manual optical training)

The Japanese Gunnery control system was still optical and manual although the very best optical systems for this in the world, but were not not even close to the capability and accuracy of radar controlled gunnery.....

 

Adm Lee, stridently recommended that ALL US navy ships have this system installed at the earliest possible yard availability, it astounded him even while he was watching it, with the understanding of how it operated and it's potential, it was something that had never been seen before and far surpassed anyone's expectations......

 

But I digress....  Sorry Lou....

 

After this battle, Adm Yamamoto decided that they could no longer risk capital ships in the defense of the Solomons, The huge gamble that Halsey took sending relatively unprotected battleships into the slot had worked, we had finally won..... (although it would still take another 8 months of hard fought battles to finish it off, after the second naval battle of Guadalcanal the offensive initiative rested with us)

 

And like Midway, it was a singularly american victory....

 

EG

[Egilman]

Onward...

 

A short review of the kit.....

 

I'm going to use the DML/Dragon models USS Livermore DD-429 in her 1942 fit as the basis of this build.....

 

A short history of the USS Livermore.... An early Gleaves class ship, she is a sister to the USS Gwin..... 

 

USS Livermore (DD-429), a Gleaves-class destroyer, was the 1st ship of the United States Navy to be named for Samuel Livermore, the first naval chaplain to be honored with a ship in his name.

She was laid down 6 March 1939 by Bath Iron Works, Bath, Maine; launched 3 August 1940; sponsored by Mrs. Everard M. Upjohn, a descendant of Chaplain Livermore; and commissioned 7 October 1940, Lieutenant Commander Vernon Huber in command...... She was assigned 29 April 1941 to the neutrality patrol. With ships like aircraft carrier Wasp (CV-7) and sister destroyers, she escorted as far as Iceland convoys bound for England. There ensued a shadowy undeclared war with Nazi wolfpacks. She was on convoy duty with Kearny (DD-432) when the latter was torpedoed 17 October. The hazards of this duty for Livermore also included a temporary grounding 24 November during a storm and having a friendly battery on Iceland fire across the ship. 

 

The attack on Pearl Harbor and full U.S. participation in World War II enlarged the scope of her actions. On the 7th of April 1942 Livermore departed New York for the first of many transatlantic escort missions. Completing her second voyage to Greenock, Scotland, on the 27th of June, upon her return stateside, she began coastal patrol and convoy duty southward into the Caribbean..... Livermore arrived off Mehdia, French Morocco, on the 9th of November for the North African invasion and was assigned antisubmarine, antiaircraft, and fire support duties. Five days later, the invasion force successfully established ashore, she sailed for Norfolk, arriving on the 26th of November. The year 1943 began with patrol duty off Recife, Brazil, and concluded with a series of five voyages from the 14th of April to the 17th of January 1943 between New York and Casablanca, French Morocco.... Her departure from Hampton Roads on the 24th of January foreshadowed a prolonged stay in the Mediterranean.... Two days earlier Allied forces had landed at Anzio, Italy. Livermore arrived off this embattled beachhead on the 5th of March. She provided both antiaircraft protection and shore bombardment support. After rotation to the convoy run between Oran, Algeria, and Naples, Italy, she participated in the initial landing in southern France on the 16th of August. While supporting minesweepers on Cavallaire Bay with gunfire, Livermore was hit by a shore battery. The damage was slight, and her guns silenced the enemy guns........ Livermore continued on duty in the western Mediterranean until the 26th of October when she steamed out of Oran for overhaul in New York Navy Yard.

 

The war ended in Europe while Livermore was on the third of a new series of escort crossings between the east coast and Oran. Completing her last transatlantic voyage on the 29th of May, she prepared for duty in the Pacific..... Though she departed New York on the 22nd of June, V-J Day found her still training at Pearl Harbor..... She reached Japan on the 27th of September escorting transports carrying soldiers of the Army's 98th Division for occupation duty. Her stay in the Orient was relatively brief; for, after several voyages between Saipan, the Philippines, and Wakayama, Japan, Livermore sailed on the 3rd of November for the Aleutians. At Dutch Harbor and Attu Island, Alaska, she embarked dischargees for passage to Seattle and San Francisco. Completing this duty on the 22nd of December 1945, she proceeded to the east coast, arriving at Charleston Navy yard on the 18th of January 1946.

 

She was designated for use in the Naval Reserve Training Program and was placed in commission, in reserve on the 1st of May 1946.... The Livermore then decommissioned and was placed "in service" on the 24th of January 1947, and was assigned to Naval Reserve training in the 6th Naval District. She was reassigned to the 1st Naval District on the 15th of March 1949. While making one of her training cruises. she ran aground off southern Cape Cod on the 30th of July 1949. Refloated the next day she proceeded to Boston and was placed out of service on the 15th of May 1950 and inactivated.

 

She was struck from the Naval Vessel Register on the 19th of July 1956. From 1956 to late 1958, her hull was used for spare parts and experimental purposes. During this time, she was anchored off Indianhead, Maryland. Upon conclusion of the experiments Livermore was sold on the 3rd of March 1961 to Potomac Shipwrecking Co., Pope's Creek, Maryland. She was towed away for scrapping on the 17th of April 1961.

USS Livermore received three battle stars for World War II service. 

 

The kit represents An early Gleaves class destroyer as it appeared in late 1942.... There are a large number of extras, photo-etched parts, antennas, ladders and even rudders for the whaleboats which offer the maximum amount of flexibility to model an early ship of this class..... There are over 430 parts in this kit so it doesn't lack in details or options. Being a Smart Kit what is nice is that most of the photoetch is not the only way to do things. For example, you can use either plastic or photo etch for the water-tight doors. 

 

Now some things need to be added to make this into the USS Gwin, the forward roof of the after deck house needs to be replaced or altered into the six tub configuration for .50 cal machine guns, you also need to install two machine gun tubs on top of the pilot house, fortunately both these parts are manufactured and sold by Krakken Models as direct replacement for kit parts. Also it would be a good idea to purchase the infini line of 1/350 .50 cal machine guns, (you will need 12 of them) and their depth charge rack setup, (the Gwin had longer than standard stern racks), you will also need the GMM photo etch set for this kit which has many options for both early and late Gleaves class ships. Especially for the railings cause the kit doesn't have any....

 

The Instructions are straightforward......

The color layout is early 1942 Ms. 12 modified which consists of a 5-N Navy Blue Hull with 5-O Ocean Grey blotches, and a 5-O Ocean Grey superstructure with 5-H Haze Grey blotches and a 20B deck Blue deck.....the pattern is one that was almost exclusively painted by Boston Navy Yard

 

So that is the kit and it accessories needed to complete it as the USS Gwin DD-433 as she left Norfolk Navy Yard to escort the Carrier Hornet to Japan and back.....

 

EG...

 

Now I'm still waiting on parts and paint to arrive and I started this log to get set up when I finish my other builds.... 

But I did promise a ship....

[Edwardkenway]

You never know, it could be the start of a fleet of floaty things😏😁

Looking forward to the build and having my education updated and upgraded. 

[Canute]

EG, nice recap of 2nd Guadalcanal.

 

That radar gizmo was in it's teething stage and a lot of the task force/group commanders didn't fully understand the ranging and tracking capabilities. We lost a number of fighting admirals, like Dan Callahan, because of this lack of understanding of radar's capabilities. Willis Lee had a good understanding of radar. He led the force that engaged the South attacking force in Surigao Strait in 1944. His defense in depth put paid for the old Pearl Harbor battleships.

[Egilman]

6 hours ago, Edwardkenway said:

You never know, it could be the start of a fleet of floaty things😏😁

Looking forward to the build and having my education updated and upgraded. 

Yep it's actually the start of my Task Force 18, April 1942 build which will consist of the Uss Gwin DD-433, (representing the four destroyers of Desdiv 22) The Uss Nashville CL-43, the USS Vincennes CA-44, the USS Cimarron AO-22 and the USS Hornet CV-8....

 

And actually in general it is I that usually have my education upgraded, by my many friends like you.... I really appreciate the compliment brother...

[Jack12477]

EG, I am familiar with the history and accomplishments of "Swede" Monssen. I used to have a book about his service, but lent it out to a Coastie to read..  

 

What happened historically between your Greaves Class USS Monssen DD-436 which sank and the Arleigh Burke Class USS Monssen DDG-92 ?  I've been looking for a kit of the Greaves Class Monssen but keep finding only kits for the Burke Class DDG.  

[Egilman]

On 10/18/2020 at 6:04 AM, Canute said:

EG, nice recap of 2nd Guadalcanal.

 

That radar gizmo was in it's teething stage and a lot of the task force/group commanders didn't fully understand the ranging and tracking capabilities. We lost a number of fighting admirals, like Dan Callahan, because of this lack of understanding of radar's capabilities. Willis Lee had a good understanding of radar. He led the force that engaged the South attacking force in Surigao Strait in 1944. His defense in depth put paid for the old Pearl Harbor battleships.

Well, I like researching the history of what actually happened rather than what some want to say happened... I"m usually wrong, but then I learn even more when my friends correct me...

 

The tech had been around since it was installed on the USS North Carolina and USS Washington as they were being built. When it was done, and the "Showboat" was on one of her pre-commissioning shakedown cruises, her GCS was tested..... They took a cruiser and had her steam a course about 20k yards off the North Carolina, they locked the system on the Cruiser, then put the battleship through a series of maneuvers which consisted of a 450 degree turn to port, immediately followed by a 100 degree turn to starboard immediately followed by another 450 degree turn and another 100 degree turn.... all at close to top speed (above 25 knots)

 

They had cameras installed on the middle barrel of each turret.......

 

The cameras only lost lock on the cruiser when their turret traverse had reached its physical limits, as soon as the ship had reversed its course the turrets swung around and re-established their lock.... they knew what it was mechanically capable of, they just didn't know how it would function in an actual battle. It was never tested under firing conditions.... So although they knew what they had, they had never actually seen it completely in action.... (with the guns actually firing) this was the first time.... and they were stunned at how well it functioned...

 

The Seventh Fleet support force at the head of Surigao Strait was actually commanded by Rear Admiral Jesse Oldendorf..... he had five of the Battleships that were at Pearl Harbor, 

West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania, only three of them had radar GCS aboard.... (in fact the pennsy never actually fired on anything during the battle, she couldn't locate a target and the Maryland actually only fired one full salvo during the whole engagement) The Wee Vee, Tennessee & California were the ships equipped with it...... (the Wee Vee open firing at 23k yards, over the optical horizon, needless to say, her first salvo straddled the Yamashiro at more than twice the range the Washington had straddled the Kirishima...... This actually confirmed the efficacy of controlling big guns with radars and computers, very very impressive capability.....

 

Adm. Lee, after the second Battle Naval battle of Guadalcanal was awarded the Navy Cross for that action, promoted to vice admiral and made Commander Battleships Pacific fleet, (combatfor) and was also commander of TF 34, built around the 3rd Fleet's six fast battleships, Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South Dakota, and Washington with his flag in the Washington.... At the time Halsey ordered them south to intercept Kurita's central force, they were almost within gun range of Ozawa's carrier group.... At 27 knots, they could never make it in time...... (although Adm. Lee tried)  Halsey later created another Task Group TG 34.5—under Rear Admiral Oscar C. Badger II consisting of the two fastest battleships, Iowa and New Jersey to advance at 30+ knots towards San Bernardino Strait, this would have been a mistake as even with superior fire control, they would have been outgunned 4-1 in battleships alone..... (thankfully it never happened otherwise we would have seen the loss of two of the greatest battleships ever built) That was a period where Halsey was handicapped by his fear of Japanese aircraft carriers, most all the command staff in the Navy understood that the Japanese carrier force could not hurt the 3rd fleet and was only an ineffective shadow of its former self, but who was going to argue with the legendary Adm Halsey? (even Nimitz refused to go there) There was no need to go rushing off to destroy them..... (many chalk this up to Halsey's earlier battles when he watched our carriers falling one by one and almost had the enterprise shot out from under him)

 

Halsey was reported to have said at one time after his retirement that he wished he would have been in command at Midway and Spruance in command at Leyte Gulf.... It was his only regret of the war.... mucho respect for admitting he was wrong..... Heartbreaking that his one mistake cost so many lives.....

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Egilman

[Egilman]

51 minutes ago, Jack12477 said:

I am familiar with the history and accomplishments of "Swede" Monssen. I used to have a book about his service, but lent it out to a Coastie to read..  

 

What happened historically between your Greaves Class USS Monssen DD-436 which sank and the Arleigh Burke Class USS Monssen DDG-92 ?  I've been looking for a kit of the Greaves Class Monssen but keep finding only kits for the Burke Class DDG.  

Was this directed at me Brother? I see no connection between the Gleaves class USS Monssen DD-436 and the Burke class USS Momson DDG-92...?? (the latter named after Vice Admiral Charles B. "Swede" Momsen)

 

Maybe I'm missing the reference..... I apologise if I am....

[Jack12477]

Oh, maybe I am the one confused ! The close similarity in spelling  Monssen versus Momsen  !   Must be all the General Anesthesia I've had in last 6 months - brain cells are still asleep. 

[Egilman]

20 minutes ago, Jack12477 said:

Oh, maybe I am the one confused ! The close similarity in spelling  Monssen versus Momsen  !   Must be all the General Anesthesia I've had in last 6 months - brain cells are still asleep. 

No sweat my friend, if you have any more of that, pass it along.... {giggle}

[Old Collingwood]

I won't confess  to knowing much about the subject  (kind of missed learning about it)   but I will say the info here  is  really  first class,   just waiting for the building to start now  - I will start on the "munchies" while we wait.

 

OC.

[Canute]

EG, that's what I get for pulling data out of my "trunk" instead of looking it up in a book. So much stuff to remember and too few functional brain cells.😉  Carry on.

[Jack12477]

1 hour ago, Egilman said:

No sweat my friend, if you have any more of that, pass it along.... {giggle}

No ! You definitely do not want any of that ...... went in hospital for same day hernia repair 10 days ago ..... emerged 5 days later after spending 3 of those days NPO,  nil per os, with an NG tube, because the alimentary canal  went to sleep and would not wake up.

 

The surgery was a breeze. I was fully awake post op and ambulating,  just certain parts of the waste disposal system decided to take a 3 day nap.  The medical term is ileus.

 

And Covid Rules - 1 visitor per day per patient between 1100 hours and 1800 hours for 4 hours max; when they leave they can't come back till next day.

 

I've been home since late Tuesday last.  Can't lift anything over 10 pounds for 4 weeks post op.  

[Egilman]

32 minutes ago, Jack12477 said:

No ! You definitely do not want any of that ...... went in hospital for same day hernia repair 10 days ago ..... emerged 5 days later after spending 3 of those days NPO,  nil per os, with an NG tube, because the alimentary canal  went to sleep and would not wake up.

 

The surgery was a breeze. I was fully awake post op and ambulating,  just certain parts of the waste disposal system decided to take a 3 day nap.  The medical term is ileus.

 

And Covid Rules - 1 visitor per day per patient between 1100 hours and 1800 hours for 4 hours max; when they leave they can't come back till next day.

 

I've been home since late Tuesday last.  Can't lift anything over 10 pounds for 4 weeks post op.  

Oh my god...

Take it easy brother, definitely don't lift anything do as little as possible....

 

My wife spent 25 days in ICU cause of a hernia surgery that went bad... serious enough to the point the doctor only gave her a 50/50 chance of surviving..... 5 days in a drug induced coma on a ventilator......

Please please take care of yourself my friend.... I will be praying for your sound recovery... not something to screw around with....