Copper plating versus not......Old Topic..., but looking for current thoughts.

[bigcreekdad]

Starting the second planking of my Speedy build. After that, copper plating is close. I've only coppered one ship (Pickle). and I just didn't like the look of it. I much prefer the unpainted wooden ship. I even mix woods a little for contrast. Another thing...I try to do my best (still a ways to go) on the second planking and to copper over most of your efforts is a bit of a downer. Finally, most of my hull will be planked with pear wood....a beautiful wood....why cover that up? But not coppering doesn't present a real ship of that period.

 

What are current thoughts from the group?

 

 

[Eugenio Treviño]

Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”.

 

Bigcreekdad:
 

I am new to ship modeling and new to this forum, but questions like yours are common to all hobbies once you go deep into them. 
 

I have been a philatelists for many years, even got a price at New York’s World Stamp Show in 2016, but I decided to stop exhibiting because I was tired of complying with rules set by the establishment. Rules that in my opinion were absurd or constrained my desire, taste and way of setting an exhibit.

I wanted to do something different, Something new, but if you did so, then you could not exhibit or your exhibit get a low mark.

 

And in this forum I have found the same thing. Which is not good or bad, it is just the way forums like this are. Just take a look at my build log. This is the latest recommendation I got by someone telling me I built my model incorrectly:

 

“I would put this model aside and do something simpler, but correctly and efficiently“.

For sure he is right, but not having an exact replica of the real vessel is wrong?

Or keep building a model with an error is wrong?

 

In my opinion, by no means!!! My build is surpassing my own expectations and that’s the only thing matters for me.

 

So if you are building a model and want to keep the pear wood finish, in my opinion and please just my opinion, go for it!!!

 

I agree with you, copper plating is not as beautiful as a natural wood hull. 
 

For sure some people may say: Oh dear, that’s not the way it must be! You need to copper plate it in order to finish it, to make it perfect!!! But having a beautiful model, just as you want it, would be the perfect thing for you!!!

 

Best regards and enjoy the holidays!!! 😉

 

 

 

 

 

[Bossman]

Bigcreek, your the captain, it’s your ship. If no copper suits you, don’t. If someone questions the accuracy of it, tell them it’s “folk art” and leave it at that. 

[bigcreekdad]

Eugenio...just looked at build log....fine looking job!

[RichardG]

I coppered my current build. This was done mostly to cover up poor planking but only after I was able to find a way to make plates that were reasonably accurate. I'm also planning to not do the rigging as per the kit plans because it's too simplified. So historical accuracy is important to me. However, just to be inconsistent I probably won't do it again!

 

I'm building ship models in wood because I like sailing ships and I love wood as a material. These are items I find enjoyable to build and to look at. I would not build a modern warship model because I like neither the subject or material (although I see some amazing models here). 

 

So I'm hoping that my future models will be close to historical accuracy but also show off my improved skills in wood.

 

As to other people saying it's not accurate if not coppered, ignore them. No model is 100% accurate. Most of the materials we use do not match the original. The plans we use are not always correct.  

 

So enjoy the hobby and build what you want in the way you want it.

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, bigcreekdad said:

most of my hull will be planked with pear wood....a beautiful wood....why cover that up? But not coppering doesn't present a real ship of that period.

Pear is indeed an attractive wood.  It usually is somewhat expensive.  Covering it up seems self defeating.  The conundrum of planking, frames, or copper is more intense with scratch POF. 

The model will involve a series of complex and complicated surfaces.  Not protecting it by mounting it in a case, invites a relatively short life for it.  A case will limit how it can be handled and viewed.  One solution to the hull finish question is to do one side finished and the other with all wood on display.  In any case, to my way of thinking, you really made the choice to go with an all wood display by going with Pear to begin with.

 

The representing a real ship:

1 hour ago, Eugenio Treviño said:

This is the latest recommendation I got by someone telling me I built my model incorrectly:

 

“I would put this model aside and do something simpler, but correctly and efficiently“.

First, by beginning with a kit,  with most mass market offerings, you are on broken and floating ice as far as any obsession with historical accuracy is concerned.  There have been compromises  made that would not be necessary with a scratch build.  So, the realistic option is to do the best with what you have and not obsess over a standard that was given up with the initial choice of subject.

Eugenio,  you are doing quite well working within the limits that the kit allows you.  You are pretty far beyond many of the barriers that defeat a beginner who is building a very complex vessel.  If the individual who suggests that you punt is a also a kit builder, consider his suggestion GIGO.   Your work has a strong flavor of Art to it, and that is not a bad thing.   An absolutely accurate representation of HMS Victory is not really all that beautiful.  While not as homely as mid 19th century warships that were purely functional, it was getting there.

 

Now as for coppering in general.  Pretty much any kit supplied method kicks you right out of any pretense to accuracy or historical integrity.  Getting a material that thin enough but works is difficult at best.

A coppering job that involves the new penny shine and or out of scale bumps that resemble nothing so much as an old photo of a case of severe Smallpox, is far into the realm of modeler's convention.  The overall look is mostly hideous to my eye.

[Bob Cleek]

Most of these conundrums go by the boards once one becomes familiar with how wooden ships really appear. If one can't spend a lifetime on the waterfront, spending as much time as possible studying really great models in the better maritime museums is highly advisable, as is collecting as many books on the subject as one might have room for. The object of modeling is to create a convincing impression of the subject in miniature. If it doesn't look right, it isn't right. The trick is developing a trained eye for what a subject should look like at scale. The concept of scale viewing distance is important and often is overlooked. Scale viewing distance is best determined by asking, "If I were standing as far away from the real ship as would be necessary to make the real ship appear as small as the model, what details on the real ship would be visible? The most frequent mistake made seems to be models which have out of scale details that would not be visible at scale viewing distance. The biggest offenders seem to be copper plating tacks, deck planking seams, planking trunnels, rigging diameters, and most anything having to do with details on sails. If the model's scale viewing distance is seventy-five or a hundred yards, you certainly aren't going to be seeing much more than the most subtle hints of seams and roping on sails and certainly not individual coppering tacks. Reproducing the mere suggestion of those subtle details, where they are barely visible at scale viewing distance, is really where the modeler's artistic skills come into play and, generally, "less is more." If visualization isn't one's strong suit, a good rule of thumb is that at 1:96 scale (1/8" = foot)  any detail larger than one foot in size on the real vessel should be reproduced on the model and any less than one foot in size on the real vessel should be seriously considered for omission entirely if they cannot be reproduced accurately to scale. Similarly, on a 1:48 (1/4"=foot) scale model, details less than six inches in size should be omitted if they can't be reproduced to exact scale.  

Edited December 26, 2020 by Bob Cleek

[CPDDET]

It's your model, build what pleases your eye.

If that means historically accurate, fine. If not, that's fine as well.

[wefalck]

I said this before, but it may help sorting out one's mind: there are basically two types of models or two types of intentions. One type is the artesanal type, where you try to show of your skills in the various trades, woodworking and/or metalworking, and this case (your) aethetics are the guiding principle. The other type is a model that tries to represent the ship as it actually might have looked like. The latter most likely does not show any untreated wood visible and historical correctness (as fas as we can know) would be important. In the former type historical correctness in detail, but not appearance could also be considered important.

 

These, of course, are extremes, and there may be transitions between the types. 

[bigcreekdad]

Second planking with very nice kit supplied pear wood. Almost finished. I did some preliminary sanding and applied a coat of gun oil. This made a few imperfections stand out, and I will now repeat the process at least once. While I've seen tons of better planking jobs on this site, I'm kinda pleased with my efforts, and, as I stated in my initial post, I just hate to cover most of this with copper. And, likely will not. To each his own I guess. Also...keel needs lots of work yet. Might just use a dark stain...any thoughts?

[Keithbrad80]

Your planking looks great! IMO coppering is your choice, and it is your model so do what ever you think looks best. Making models that looks realistic and is true to scale is the motivation behind most ship modelers like my self, but in the end this is a hobby and you spent money on the kit, so build it how you would like!

 

If you do decide to put the copper plates on there, there are lots of resources available to you . I recently finished coppering the model I’m working on now with pretty nice results, after building a quick jig that made coppering easy. Nice work on the second layer of planking.

 

Bradley 

[rwiederrich]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:29 PM, Bob Cleek said:

Most of these conundrums go by the boards once one becomes familiar with how wooden ships really appear. If one can't spend a lifetime on the waterfront, spending as much time as possible studying really great models in the better maritime museums is highly advisable, as is collecting as many books on the subject as one might have room for. The object of modeling is to create a convincing impression of the subject in miniature. If it doesn't look right, it isn't right. The trick is developing a trained eye for what a subject should look like at scale. The concept of scale viewing distance is important and often is overlooked. Scale viewing distance is best determined by asking, "If I were standing as far away from the real ship as would be necessary to make the real ship appear as small as the model, what details on the real ship would be visible? The most frequent mistake made seems to be models which have out of scale details that would not be visible at scale viewing distance. The biggest offenders seem to be copper plating tacks, deck planking seams, planking trunnels, rigging diameters, and most anything having to do with details on sails. If the model's scale viewing distance is seventy-five or a hundred yards, you certainly aren't going to be seeing much more than the most subtle hints of seams and roping on sails and certainly not individual coppering tacks. Reproducing the mere suggestion of those subtle details, where they are barely visible at scale viewing distance, is really where the modeler's artistic skills come into play and, generally, "less is more." If visualization isn't one's strong suit, a good rule of thumb is that at 1:96 scale (1/8" = foot)  any detail larger than one foot in size on the real vessel should be reproduced on the model and any less than one foot in size on the real vessel should be seriously considered for omission entirely if they cannot be reproduced accurately to scale. Similarly, on a 1:48 (1/4"=foot) scale model, details less than six inches in size should be omitted if they can't be reproduced to exact scale.  

 

Bob...as with most of your observations....your descriptions are worth a pot of gold.  I entirely agree with your observations and applications.  Rigging and sails, as you rightly depict, are the greatest scale violations in model ship building(IMHV).

 

Rob

[Bob Cleek]

8 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Rigging and sails, as you rightly depict, are the greatest scale violations in model ship building(IMHV).

 

Amen to this! 

 

I keep a keen eye on your sailmaking. It's really top notch. I've made all the usual mistakes trying to use cloth. I've concluded it's impossible in anything smaller than 3/4" to the foot scale. The art is in the subtlety of it all.