ancre Le Rochefort by No Idea - 1/24th Scale - First POF Build

[No Idea]

23 minutes ago, Michael_A said:

No idea,

 

Your woodworking is so clean and seemingly perfectly accurate. How do you achieve the smooth even finish of your frames, keel pieces? Are you sawing and/or machining followed by sanding? 

 

Michael

Hi Michael and thanks for your comment - Now it may look perfectly accurate in the pictures but just like everyone else I have to jiggle all of my joints around a bit to get them to fit.  I also have to make loads of adjustments to make the parts fit the master plan as I have found that photocopies have much thicker lines.  This may seem like no big deal but a few slightly thicker joints on a model that's a metre long adds up to a 3mm problem at one end or the other.  I check against the plan more times a day than I care to admit too.

 

I do quite a lot of machining but I always finish my parts by hand.  I prefer to use small Villorbe engineers files as they really rip through the wood if need be.  I can also get a very flat finish on the wood using these too which is another reason why things look on face of it smooth and precise; trust me they are not.  I don't like using sand paper as it just rounds of the edges which makes good joints look sloppy even if they are not.  I think I'm trying to say that I try and keep things flat and as square as possible.  If I could recommend one tool to master its a flat file.   When I do use paper I use fine silicon carbide paper.  Its very thin and seems to last for quite a long time.

 

What you don't see is the amount of pieces that don't make the cut.  If its not going right - it's going in the bin.  I've spent literally and entire weekend making a part only to destroy it accidentally at the last minute.  

 

I hope this answers your question - Mark 

[No Idea]

I got some more done today - you will be relieved to know that I go back to work tomorrow so my updates will be at my usual slow rate of building!

 

The parts that were previously fitted dried OK but.......I do have a bit of a gap between the stem and the apron.  I tried to scribe these parts together but it didn't quite work out as I had hoped.  Its only a small gap and on my next build I'll learn from my mistake.  

 

I've now cut the stem rabbet which is time consuming but also really pleasing.  I learn't on my last build that getting the rabbet right makes the planking just that little bit easier.  I have noticed that I need to do a little more work on the stern rabbet so I'll have a look at that in the morning.

 

I did make a mistake when I started to cut the rabbet.  I marked it out far too wide and luckily realised this after I had cut it about 1 1/2 down the stem.  I stopped and inlayed a repair piece and then started again once dry.  There's a picture of the repair which obviously only I know about and I'm not going to tell anyone else...............oh hang on a minute 🤣

 

I feel like I'm starting to get somewhere now - Mark

[clogger]

Such precision!

It must start to get very exciting the moment you can place the frames onto the keel. I presume you will have a jig organised for this.  It will interesting to see how you make the jig.

[No Idea]

Hi Clogger its not to far off now but I'm going to make the transom timbers first the same way Adrian has in his book.  I will be making a jig so that things are nice and square too.

 

Not much done today as I really needed to give my room a really good clean as I've been making quite a bit of dust.  I've tidied up the sternpost rabbet so that it has a better transition.  I've also just been going over what I've done so far to make sure nothings been missed.

 

[No Idea]

Well I guess something had to wrong sooner or later.  I was just about to start on the last two rising wood pieces and I thought that I would just check the alignment of the keel again - and its wrong.

 

The angle of the stem has moved by 1.65mm out of alignment and I think this happened when I glued the apron on.  I think that I probably over clamped it and pulled it back somehow.  I cannot pull the stem into alignment as it then stresses and bends the keel upwards.

 

I think this will have to be a complete rebuild which is a shame but hey ho!

 

 

[tkay11]

Sure it can't be straightened out? Under a heavy board for a few days, after wetting perhaps. I don't know as I've never tried such a thing, but there may be a solution. Better to pause before a rebuild, I would think. You've done so beautifully so far.

 

Tony

[No Idea]

Hi Tony

 

I'm pretty sure now that I pulled it around when I clamped the apron in place.  The solution would have been to remove the apron so I left the whole thing in a bath of IPA overnight.  This has not even touched the glue and everything is still as solid as it was.  So like we do I tried to force it apart and its now damaged.  So I'm going to remake it and I'm ok with this, as it needs to be right.  I'll pick this thread up again once I get to where I was

 

Mark 👍

[tkay11]

Well, there are plenty of others who have ended up making the same decision. I've often had to go several steps back, and take it as a learning experience. I hope all goes well on the re-do.

 

Tony

[clogger]

Would you be able to salvage parts by cutting out the overlaid pattern? That should save some time and wood.

[Casi]

Good luck for the build, your wood is beautiful.

[No Idea]

Thanks for the nice comments all. I’ve made a start and it won’t take me long. There’s only a few pieces to make and I’m in no rush. I’ll keep you posted as I just want this build to be right 

[Tonphil1960]

Great clean work ! I have the book and monograph here also. I'm trying to figure out how to make up a materials list for the lumber needed. Is this list available anywhere ? Ill go through the monograph and book again to see if I can glean any more info on it. Thanks Tony

[No Idea]

Hi Tony - yes it’s clean but not straight 😂. I’m working on putting this right at the moment. 
 

If you look at the back of the monograph you will find the scantlings which give the timber sizes. What it won’t tell you though is the overall quantity that you need. 
 

I’ve found this to be unimportant as the time scale required to build this ship is long so if you like just buy what you need to get going. 
 

Or do what I did and just buy a load of lumber from your supplier and make them very happy people 👍

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

I have a problem - or should I say I've found a problem.  As you know I'm currently remaking the keel parts due to the stem not being straight.

 

So I remade the stem parts and yet again the parts were not aligned as they should be.  So I put it down to my mistake and made them again - yep you've guessed it they were also misaligned.  I seemed to have to make lots of corrections on the scarf joints no matter how carefully I machined them.  Even then they just were not quite right.  I think I was lucky in my first original attempt to get them to line up.  Maybe beginners luck!

 

So I checked the plans and I have found them to have errors.  The stem on the exploded part of the plan which is marked by "B" on the attached photo has different dimensions to the stem marked "A" on the main plan.  Its about 1mm different which has a big impact on the scarf joint dimensions too.  

 

I have been using the exploded plan to gain my templates so basically I have been wasting my time and loads of wood too.  The obvious solution would be to use the main plan and cut the pieces out of that; but if thats so why have the exploded parts?

 

I'm certain that Ancre have no idea of this problem so I've dropped them an email to let them know.  I'll wait for their reply before I do anymore work but I'm sure that they will be surprised.  My guess is that the error occurred at the printers and has nothing to do with them.  I've asked them to check their drawings and I'll send them detailed photo's if that will help.

 

I'll keep you up to date as things move forward.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[No Idea]

Oh on the positive side I have remade the sternson and extensions.  I corrected all of the errors of my own making so this is far better than the original one that I made.  I did have to jiggle the scarfs though probably for the same reason as above I've just not have time to have a detailed look at that.  Quite honestly it doesn't matter as this version lines up exactly with the main plan 😉

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

It is probably a printing problem because the "exploded" part is drawn from the "assembled" part, there is no difference in the AutoCad file (I just checked).
It is possible that the printing method has deformed the print although it comes from a pdf file dimensionally reliable.
Sorry for this inconvenience that I hope is unique.

Gérard Delacroix

[No Idea]

6 minutes ago, G. Delacroix said:

Hello,

It is probably a printing problem because the "exploded" part is drawn from the "assembled" part, there is no difference in the AutoCad file (I just checked).
It is possible that the printing method has deformed the print although it comes from a pdf file dimensionally reliable.
Sorry for this inconvenience that I hope is unique.

Gérard Delacroix

Hi Gerard

 

Thanks for the reply - As soon as I discovered this issue I was quite certain that its a printing issue.  I'll wait for Ancre to check their prints as obviously if this part is wrong others could be too.  I just need to know from them that the main assembled drawing is correct and I'll use that instead.

 

Thanks again Mark  

[clogger]

Well spottted No Idea.  I presume the larger the scale conversion the larger the error seen?

I too have been using the exploded parts B, and have made a coulpe of attemps already at getting this right.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by clogger

[tkay11]

On my plans scarf A and scarf B are exactly the same size. You could trace them to check or use dividers. I note that there is a fold going across the tip of scarf B, so is this where your measurement might be going wrong?

 

The other thing is that if you have used scans or photocopies to go to 1:24 there may well have been distortions in the scanning process.

 

Gérard is very precise in his drawings, and when there are errors in Ancre plans the ones I have found are always due to mistakes by the author.

 

Questions about the Rochefort have been pretty thoroughly examined in the Marine & Modélisme d'Arsenal forum, so you could also have a look there about issues that come up as you build.

 

Good luck with the answer!

 

Tony

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

The original 1:24 ANCRE plans are available but have you used them or are you working with direct or enlarged copies?
The ANCRE plans are directly generated at the right scale without distortion at this point and there is no optical enlargement.

 

That said, your work is of a very high quality, clear and, I suppose, precise. 
Congratulations to you.

 

Gérard Delacroix

[No Idea]

Hi Gerard - thanks for the nice comment. It’s the original plan that is slightly distorted and having looked further it would appear to have only affected the stem. If I place tracing paper over the assembled stem and plot the main points,  it is slightly different on the exploded stem. I’m glad that I have resolved my problem but I’ve not heard from Ancre yet. Maybe they will post me another copy of plan 2. Either way I have a solution so will be able to continue. It’s a minor problem I believe with the printing of this one sheet on what are lovely plans. 

[No Idea]

Take two........😆

 

I'm very glad to say that I'm now back on track   I've remade all of the keel parts and they are very nice and straight!  The only extra piece added is the stem head knee and I've also pre-shaped the saddle for the bowsprit.  I'm now going to get on with the rising wood.

 

 

[egkb]

This is Pure Class.. Simple as that !

 

Eamonn

[No Idea]

14 hours ago, egkb said:

This is Pure Class.. Simple as that !

 

Eamonn

Thanks Eamonn that's nice of you to say.....but don't zoom in too closely as I have still made a few simple errors.

 

The rising wood is now complete and its a nice part of the boat to make.  The shorter piece is the hardest to make as its thickness rises just before the apron.  I positioned it dry using tree nails to make sure that I got good alignment which made the gluing up nice and easy.

 

I also trial fitted a couple of frames......they are very snug and needed a little bit of fettling with a file but the fit on the rising wood is good.

 

My next job is the wing transom and I'll make a start on this sometime over the weekend when I get some more time.

 

Cheers Mark

 

 

[clogger]

Very impressive!!

[mtaylor]

Lovely work that will provide an excellent base for everything else.

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

Lovely work that will provide an excellent base for everything else.

Thanks Mark and I hope so too.  I'm finding with building this ship that I just cannot cover all eventualities no matter how hard I try.  I'm certain that all model builders have the same thoughts.  Cheers again as I really appreciate your comments  

[No Idea]

Sorry for the lack of updates but I'm waiting on a small adjustable angle plate to be delivered for my mill vice.  I've now been told it will probably be a couple more weeks yet

 

So while I've been waiting I have made the assembly jig which turned out to be a project in itself!  It's very sturdy and holds the keel firmly and straight.  

 

I used the station line on frame 15 as my datum for everything to line up and its seems to have gone ok.  I did find that when I curved the upper platform it shortened the aperture a little so once it was bolted in place it did need slightly adjusting it to allow for this shrinkage.

 

I've roughly tried a few frames and they seem to fit nicely apart from the first four frames at the bow.  I've checked them on the plans and I've left them a little on the thick side.  So I reckon that if I sand them down to their correct size they should fit ok but I'll worry about that nearer the time.

 

Here's a few pictures

[PRS]

Wow that look good. 

 

And such a clean workshop!

[clogger]

I found it difficult to know which line to follow exactly when cutting out the template for the main plywood piece from the plans owing to the confusion of lines on the plans!

Again your work is truly inspiring!