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I am more or less ready to secure the Cannons to the deck. I am working on HMS Bounty by Amati. I think I have the general layout of the ropes and block configuration, however as there is little room  and will be working with 2mm as I did on the steering, There is a video by Amati which the guy uses electric wire on the single 2 mm blocks to form an extra loop. Is there any problem with using this or should it be brass wire. If using copper wire around the block would it be neccessary to then paint the wire. Best regards Dave

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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There are chemical blackening products out there.  Do a search on blacken copper an another for brass and you'll get more than enough info.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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I found this on Etsy.  I saw Chuck suggest this in one of his tutorials (fogot which ship.)  Haven't used it yet.  The black will imitate black rope for the strop; no painting needed.  I got the  34 guage; I think Chuck recommended 33.  Delivery was quick; shipping free.

image.png.d233f38af990cb4b0c10da70b08d9ab5.png

Seller: CraftBistro
29,000 sales|5 out of 5 stars    
Black Artistic Wire Tarnish Resistant Craft Wire (14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34 Gauge)
$6.35+

.John

In stock

.John

 

Current Build: Lady Nelson

Next up: Speedy (Vanguard Models)

 

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Thanks for the info on Blackening copper.Something I will definately look into. Much appreciated.Best regards Dave

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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Dave,

I prefer copper to brass if at all possible  You can blacken it AFTER it is installed so you are not scratching/rubbing off the blackening, be it paint or Jax or any other blackening agent when handling, twisting, etc.   Once the part is in place you can blacken it with liver of sulfur.  Be sure your copper is uncoated so you will not have to clean it with acetone or pickling solution or some such.   Look at Ed Tosti's log on the clipper Young America and he explains using it.  I tried it and I am completely sold on it.  There are times when brass is better if a stiff piece is needed as it is much harder than copper, but I use copper whenever possible.  Copper also is easier to soft solder and it will be very strong, where as I prefer silver solder when I do use brass.   Just as a FWIW, I am using soft solder paste and silver solder paste rather than hard pieces of solder.  Much easier.

Allan 

Edited by allanyed

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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8 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

I prefer copper to brass if at all possible  You can blacken it AFTER it is installed so you are not scratching/rubbing off the blackening, be it paint or Jax or any other blackening agent when handling, twisting, etc.   Once the part is in place you can blacken it with liver of sulfur.  Be sure your copper is uncoated so you will not have to clean it with acetone or pickling solution or some such.   Look at Ed Tosti's log on the clipper Young America and he explains using it.  I tried it and I am completely sold on it.  There are times when brass is better if a stiff piece is needed as it is much harder than copper, but I use copper whenever possible.  Copper also is easier to soft solder and it will be very strong, where as I prefer silver solder when I do use brass.   Just as a FWIW, I am using soft solder paste and silver solder paste rather than hard pieces of solder.  Much easier.

Allan 

Thanks again for helping me with that Allan because I have been search for a product called Patina but couldn't decide if this stuff actually blackend  Copper or does it do brass as well. I have also seen on ebay some stuff called Liver of sulfur. Does this stuff also darken brass assuming brass is made up of copper and tin? Whilst we are on thus subject I also watched a video of a guy using this stuff on the brass links securing the shrouds? 

This hobby takes so many directions .Just when you think you have everything at hand.Best regards Dave

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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Dave ,

Liver of sulfur is good on copper, not on brass in my experience.  The big advantage is that it can be watered down  and applied to the piece after it is in place without discoloring the wood.  Do look at Ed Tosti's Young America build log as he describes its use in some detail with good photos.

 

I would like to know if anyone knows of a blackening agent that will blacken copper and soft solder as well as brass and silver solder.  

 

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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28 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Dave ,

Liver of sulfur is good on copper, not on brass in my experience.  The big advantage is that it can be watered down  and applied to the piece after it is in place without discoloring the wood.  Do look at Ed Tosti's Young America build log as he describes its use in some detail with good photos.

 

I would like to know if anyone knows of a blackening agent that will blacken copper and soft solder as well as brass and silver solder.  

 

Allan

So I also need something else for the brass or do I leave alone. What sort of thickness wire do I need to make it look like rope? I do have some 0.2mm at hand and could use a few strands put together to make a thicker looking rope. Also I just been mounting the gun barrals into their stock ( not sure what the correct names are for these) and when placed up to the gun ports they are way high. I was pretty sure that when I fitted the bulwarks, I fitted them to the correct height. I have had to file out the holes where the pins fit and the middle of the carrage where the gun lies. This has now allowed the gun to lie horizontal rather that at an elevation. Just wondering if this is correct? It looks ok however it is probably not historically correct.. I don't know and can't think of any other way to put this right.

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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John (Dr. Jeckyl)

Do you know what the wire is made of?  The reason I ask, is if the coating can be scraped off so it can be silver and/or soft soldered.

Thanks

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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2 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

What sort of thickness wire do I need to make it look like rope?

You might try twisting together 2 or three strands of the really fine wire found in 20 gauge or thinner electric wire.

It will be copper or aluminum, so you will still be looking at blackening it..

“Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett

Current builds:    Rattlesnake

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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3 minutes ago, Gregory said:

You might try twisting together 2 or three strands of the really fine wire found in 20 gauge or thinner electric wire.

It will be copper or aluminum, so you will still be looking at blackening it..

Thanks Gregory for your reply which is much appreciated. Its definately copper which is 0.25mm but not sure  what  20 gauge wire is so will have to google it. I have also ordered some liver of sulfur so should be fine. What are people using to darken brass?

I have just managed to get the cannon to fit in the gun ports and I am now wondering whether to actually paint them I  quite like the metalic look that came with the kit. I am trying to upload a photo from my phone but having a few issues. Any thoughts on painting cannons would be appreciated. I do not have air brushing equipment at this point.

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, allanyed said:

John (Dr. Jeckyl)

Do you know what the wire is made of?  The reason I ask, is if the coating can be scraped off so it can be silver and/or soft soldered.

Thanks

Allan

Its definately copper. I also have ordered some liver of sulfur. See my post on painting cannons. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Best regards Dave

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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20 Gauge stranded:

 

Here

 

image.png.eadd312c865b5450b2b915b0a4cf6bfd.png

 

It could be any similar wire found around the house.

Edited by Gregory

“Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett

Current builds:    Rattlesnake

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Do you know what the wire is made of?  The reason I ask, is if the coating can be scraped off so it can be silver and/or soft soldered.

 

I found this in a site selling the product:

"Artistic Wire is available in the largest selection of exclusive permanently coated colors and gauges that offer striking beauty and shine for your wire designs. The softness and flexibility of this wire make it great for Beading and Wire Wrapping projects.

Color: Black ~ Tarnish Resistant
Shape: Round
Material: Copper
Temper: Soft
Nickel Free- EU Compliant
"

 

This says the wire is copper but does not shed any light on the colouring. The same product range includes a silver plated version:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/523087166/artistic-wire-18-20-22-24-26-28-30-guage?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=Black+Artistic+Wire+Tarnish+Resistant+Craft+Wire&ref=sc_gallery-1-4&plkey=8e9df4a23913a998cb80a37c7088605484d00d3f%3A523087166

 

Perhaps the plated version is more likely to give consistent results, assuming you have a satifactory means to blacken silver.

Looking at their wording, I wonder if the 'black' wire has been blackened, not coated? Whatever the method, the wire is advertised as being very flexible and the implication is the colour remains consistent during any handling. If so I would like to know their process.

🌻

STAY SAFE

 

A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin

current builds:

HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style

Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild 

French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold

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7 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

Any thoughts on painting cannons would be appreciated. I do not have air brushing equipment at this point.

 

 

You might check out Glenn Barlow's method in his Cheerful log.

 

 

“Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett

Current builds:    Rattlesnake

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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19 minutes ago, bruce d said:

 

I found this in a site selling the product:

"Artistic Wire is available in the largest selection of exclusive permanently coated colors and gauges that offer striking beauty and shine for your wire designs. The softness and flexibility of this wire make it great for Beading and Wire Wrapping projects.

Color: Black ~ Tarnish Resistant
Shape: Round
Material: Copper
Temper: Soft
Nickel Free- EU Compliant
"

 

This says the wire is copper but does not shed any light on the colouring. The same product range includes a silver plated version:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/523087166/artistic-wire-18-20-22-24-26-28-30-guage?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=Black+Artistic+Wire+Tarnish+Resistant+Craft+Wire&ref=sc_gallery-1-4&plkey=8e9df4a23913a998cb80a37c7088605484d00d3f%3A523087166

 

Perhaps the plated version is more likely to give consistent results, assuming you have a satifactory means to blacken silver.

Looking at their wording, I wonder if the 'black' wire has been blackened, not coated? Whatever the method, the wire is advertised as being very flexible and the implication is the colour remains consistent during any handling. If so I would like to know their process.

You Have me worried now the wire I  ordered  just says copper wire. It comes in a roll and looks like copper. It comes from a well known electrical supply shop RS componants. Its not sold from a craft shop so I suppose I will just have live in hope. 

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

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There are really only two versions of Artistic Wire to consider: "black" and "bare copper".  The black is quite glossy and in my opinion does not look like rope.  Bare copper can be blackened with one of the selenium products like Jax Black.  The plated versions are coated and could not be blackened this way.  Alternatively, you could use Chuck Passaro's  method where he paints the item black and then uses weathering powder to make it look more like metal.

 

Incidentally, this wire is not stranded.  It is essentially copper wire with an enamel coating (except for "bare copper" of course which has no coating.

 

John

Edited by bartley
addition

Current Build:

Medway Longboat

Completed Builds:

Concord Stagecoach

HM Cutter Cheerful

Royal Caroline

Schooner for Port Jackson

 

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52 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

It comes from a well known electrical supply shop RS componants. I

Knowing RS for a few decades I am certain they will send you a fact sheet on the product. 😁

🌻

STAY SAFE

 

A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin

current builds:

HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style

Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild 

French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold

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1 hour ago, Gregory said:

 

You might check out Glenn Barlow's method in his Cheerful log.

 

 

All credit to Glenn.  His Cheerful build is magnificent.  Great workmanship!  but we must credit Chuck Passarro for the invention of this weathering method. 

 

From chapter nine of his cheerful monograph:-

 

"I also weathered the black backstay plates ever so slightly. This was just a matter of brushing on some weathering powder and buffing it off. I prefer to make all of the metal elements have a different texture and look than the black painted areas of the hull such as the wales. Its very subtle and can be overdone very easily. So if you want to give this a try it’s a lot of fun and you might just like how it looks too.

My weathering powders come from Micro-Mark and there are several colors to choose from. I decided to use Rusty Brown. I will use this for all of the metal work on the Cheerful. The photo on the next page shows the powder being added to a carronade later in the project. Grimy black is another color I sometimes use but in this case I decided to go with just the rusty brown. After the parts have been painted black, just apply a generous amount to the piece with a soft brush.apply it all over. Then buff it off with another soft clean brush. Repeat this process to suit your preferred level of color and appearance."

 

John

Edited by bartley

Current Build:

Medway Longboat

Completed Builds:

Concord Stagecoach

HM Cutter Cheerful

Royal Caroline

Schooner for Port Jackson

 

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49 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

To paint or not to paint? That is the question.

I think the bronze with patina look  is nice.

 

End the end, it's how you want it to look.

“Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett

Current builds:    Rattlesnake

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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31 minutes ago, bartley said:

we must credit Chuck Passarro

Yes, while it’s my workmanship, as I frequently do in my build log all due credit goes to Chuck. As I also noted I was initially a little reluctant to use weathering powder now I weather everything simulating metal. 
 

While this discussion has been focused on wire, blocks can be seized with rope and the loop created by seizing it on a drill bit then the resulting loop stiffened with CA. Easier to work with and though it will give, probably about the same as 34 gauge wire though I’ve never compared them. 

Regards,

Glenn

 

Current Build: HMS Winchelsea
Completed Builds: HM Flirt (paused) HM Cutter CheerfulLady NelsonAmati HMS Vanguard,  
HMS Pegasus, Fair American, HM Granado, HM Pickle, AVS, Pride of Baltimore, Bluenose

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54 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

Yes, while it’s my workmanship, as I frequently do in my build log all due credit goes to Chuck. As I also noted I was initially a little reluctant to use weathering powder now I weather everything simulating metal. 
 

While this discussion has been focused on wire, blocks can be seized with rope and the loop created by seizing it on a drill bit then the resulting loop stiffened with CA. Easier to work with and though it will give, probably about the same as 34 gauge wire though I’ve never compared them. 

That might be worth a try. Just a thought I am finding it very difficult to work with 2mm blocks, It must be an age thing. I am kind of hoping it will be easier to work with the copper wire. Probably all the wrong reasons but thought I would give it a go. Some of the blocks do not require this extra loop so do I still need to do them all for the cannons that is with copper wire or can I mix and match. Thank you for your input. Best regards Dave

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, bartley said:

 

All credit to Glenn.  His Cheerful build is magnificent.  Great workmanship!  but we must credit Chuck Passarro for the invention of this weathering method. 

 

From chapter nine of his cheerful monograph:-

 

"I also weathered the black backstay plates ever so slightly. This was just a matter of brushing on some weathering powder and buffing it off. I prefer to make all of the metal elements have a different texture and look than the black painted areas of the hull such as the wales. Its very subtle and can be overdone very easily. So if you want to give this a try it’s a lot of fun and you might just like how it looks too.

My weathering powders come from Micro-Mark and there are several colors to choose from. I decided to use Rusty Brown. I will use this for all of the metal work on the Cheerful. The photo on the next page shows the powder being added to a carronade later in the project. Grimy black is another color I sometimes use but in this case I decided to go with just the rusty brown. After the parts have been painted black, just apply a generous amount to the piece with a soft brush.apply it all over. Then buff it off with another soft clean brush. Repeat this process to suit your preferred level of color and appearance."

 

John

I like the sound of this john and will bare it in mind for the future. This is only my second model and finding there is so much to learn but what to do the best I can. At some stage I will want to learn all these new elements of the hobby such as using weathering products, air brushing and many more. It tuelly is an amazing hobby and can be as challenging as you want it too be. So thanks for your input john and definitely something else to luck forward to.Best regards Dave.

Edited by DaveBaxt

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

difficult to work with 2mm blocks

It isn't an age thing, all of us are challenged by that. A quad hands is essential to working with blocks and rigging, do you have one? Here's the one I have from Amazon, its a US link but I know Amazon in the UK also has them Quad Hands

 

By the way, I'd definitely paint the cannons, the cast metal would seem unfinished to me, something you might regret later.  Most cannon of the era have red trucks with black metal. If you choose not to do the weathering definitely use a paint that finishes as simulated metal, not something glossy.  I use Admiralty Flat Ironwork Black and Admiralty Red Ochre for the trucks you can get both here, and its local to the UK. Admiralty Paints.

 

There is a lot of things to learn and experiment with for your first model.  I'd suggest not overthinking it and learn the basics on this one.  I'm on my 10th and still learning something new on this forum every day.  Enjoy the process.

Regards,

Glenn

 

Current Build: HMS Winchelsea
Completed Builds: HM Flirt (paused) HM Cutter CheerfulLady NelsonAmati HMS Vanguard,  
HMS Pegasus, Fair American, HM Granado, HM Pickle, AVS, Pride of Baltimore, Bluenose

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7 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

Just a thought I am finding it very difficult to work with 2mm blocks,

You would be hard pressed to find an example of where this is done well by anyone at this scale.. 

Even at 1:48, most efforts leave a lot to be desired.

More often than not, any strops and hooks look way out of scale.. 

 

You will find many fine models where the tackle is not rigged at all,

or maybe just the breaching rope is present.

 

You might consider a method called " frapping "

 

Shown here on tkayy11's  Triton cross section.

 

58c883c672428_P1020697annot.thumb.jpg.fe1287395294ead38eaecd2497647947.jpg

 

However, I think this is a 1:48 build..

 

Getting the hooks to look good at 1:64 is more of a challenge.

“Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett

Current builds:    Rattlesnake

On Hold:  HMS Resolution ( AKA Ferrett )

In the Gallery: Yacht Mary,  Gretel, French Cannon

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If these cannon are from the 18th century, if you want realism, they should be black and the carriages either wood or red in color.  The trucks can be the color of wood as well or I have seen these painted black at times.

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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13 hours ago, glbarlow said:

It isn't an age thing, all of us are challenged by that. A quad hands is essential to working with blocks and rigging, do you have one? Here's the one I have from Amazon, its a US link but I know Amazon in the UK also has them Quad Hands

 

By the way, I'd definitely paint the cannons, the cast metal would seem unfinished to me, something you might regret later.  Most cannon of the era have red trucks with black metal. If you choose not to do the weathering definitely use a paint that finishes as simulated metal, not something glossy.  I use Admiralty Flat Ironwork Black and Admiralty Red Ochre for the trucks you can get both here, and its local to the UK. Admiralty Paints.

 

There is a lot of things to learn and experiment with for your first model.  I'd suggest not overthinking it and learn the basics on this one.  I'm on my 10th and still learning something new on this forum every day.  Enjoy the process.

Thanks guys and lots of things to think about I do like the idea of quad hands and will no doubt end up getting one. Although at this time I am not to worried about authenticity I know I will regret it in the long run. The red ocre and iron black paint came with the kit so I have no excuses, I will try and make the best job I can, If I do I would like to have some highlights on the cannons so they are not all black. Thank you everyone for all your help.Best regards Dave.

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

Currently building HM Bark Endeavour  

 

 

 

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I think if I paint these cannons, weathering sound like the way to go . Is this something I can achieve after I have painted them. Has any one got a direct link to Chuck's weathering techniques or any videos on how to go with this. I do think although not technically correct leaving the cannons as they are . I beleve they won,t look as good hand painting them. However I do want to learn and willing to try painting them. As said previously I have Iron black and red orchre acrylic paints available. I have also ordered some liver of Sulfur for blackening the copper wire. What other products do I need such as weathering the brass rings and cannon etc. Just wondering if I am taking this a bit far being my first ship and still need to learn the basics first, mainly the rigging.

Edited by DaveBaxt

Completed     St Canute Billings            Dec 2020

Completed    HMS Bounty Amati          May 2021 Finished

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