Rigging without sails, but using bolt ropes to allow inclusion of sail rigging?

[Tim Holt]

User @John Fox III in the below comment mentions framing sail locations with just the bolt ropes when modeling without actual sails, which allows inclusion of sail rigging without the sails.

 

I'm kind of intrigued by this idea, and curious if others have done this or have any examples of it.

 

 

[Tim Holt]

Why do I get the feeling half of you are like, “That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of…”

[mtaylor]

I don't think it's dumb... I'm just following along to see what happens.   It is an interesting idea to have the outline of sails but no sails to block the view.

[Dr PR]

Tim,

 

I'm not sure about using the bolt ropes to produce "skeleton" sails. I haven't seen a model rigged that way but it does seem a bit odd (unusual) to me.

 

However, I have seen models where some of the sail rigging is included without the sails. For example the fore sails have halliards and inhauls/downhauls that can be hooked together when the sail isn't rigged (usually at the inhaul block on the bowsprit/stay). Likewise square sails have clew lines and sheets that can be hooked together at the end of the spar. Gaff sail outhauls and brails can be rigged this way at the end of the boom. Buntlines could be hooked to the spar. I'm not sure what you would do with bow lines that normally attach directly to the sails.

 

I think you can include most of the sail rigging in this way.

[Bob Cleek]

In at least one contemporary Navy Board model without sails, I've seen the sheets run from the belaying pin to their blocks aloft with a figure eight stopper knot in the bitter end. I believe this is how the running rigging would have been left aloft when the sails were sent down. In such fashion, the sheets, etc. would be left aloft and ready to bend to the sail when the sail was again sent aloft.

[Gregory]

 

 

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of bolt ropes without sails.

It's like wearing a belt with no pants..

[glbarlow]

9 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

sheets run from the belaying pin to their blocks aloft with a figure eight stopper knot in the bitter end

I rigged Pegasus, as Bob describes, to include every rope including those for the sails based on the research I did at the time. It looks great and a model I’m proud of. It does take a lot of work managing the complexity of all those ropes in tight quarters, the end result is worth it. 
 

I had a nice build log here but it was lost in the 2013 crash, only the gallery photos survive.   I think it’s a great idea, go for it. 

[Tim Holt]

22 hours ago, Dr PR said:

However, I have seen models where some of the sail rigging is included without the sails. For example the fore sails have halliards and inhauls/downhauls that can be hooked together when the sail isn't rigged (usually at the inhaul block on the bowsprit/stay).

 

Yes, I've been thinking this way too.  Petersson's Rigging Fore-And-Aft Craft has some examples of this, like the Jib outhaul and inhaul on page 24 where the Halliard hook onto the ring/hoop around the bowsprit.

 

One motivation for me was seeing how in one example I saw where the sheets were directly attached to the foresail's clew - not removable.  I liked the idea of actually having the sheets present without having to include the sails, and perhaps how they could be present but "unhooked" from the clew.  And then the quoted comment made me think perhaps of the use of minimal bolt ropes to give them a purchase.

Like a lot of things on my current model, I'm probably just going to give it a try and see how it looks.  Rope isn't the cheapest in the world, but I've got enough on the way from Ropes of Scale that I can experiment a bit.  Hey I'm on my 5th deck grating version, so it's all part of learning.

 

I'd also add that I'm doing a lot of modifications to deck and rigging for my run of the mill Swift kit.  A lot of things are kind of "wrong" on it, and shortcuts were clearly taken with many things.

 

The curse  (or blessing) of picking up more and more reference books that show you just how it might really have been done.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Tim Holt

[popeye2sea]

I think you could accomplish making a framework of the sail from the bolt rope only, but, just trying to think it through, you would have a problem with the bolt ropes sagging inward or outward when you put tension on the corners of the sails via the rigging.  Perhaps if you used wire instead of rope for the bolt rope?

 

Regards,

[Kevin]

That sounds an intresting idea, im looking to see if my amerigo would ever berth along side with sails stowed but sail lines that attach to them left in place, i just dont think i can make the sails look realistic