Proxxon Router Bits

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, bruce d said:

Dave, I have watched with interest the different ways people make masts. If you want to compare before committing to a process, why not post a thread 'Best wood to use for masts?'. I would expect a lively response (and if you don't want to post such a thread, I will in a couple of months when my project reaches that stage 😁).

 

In the meantime, these guys are good:

Timberline Decorative and Specialist Hardwoods | Tonewoods | Guitar Making (exotichardwoods.co.uk)

They usually have good stocks of Castello in different thicknesses. If you don't find what you want on the website give them a phone call, not all stock is listed.

Thank you again for helping me out. Funny you should mention Timberline . I have just ordered some Boxwood from them. I have also be getting quite a lot of help from people who I have been following their blogs. One person in particular has build his mast like in the old days and is truely inspiring and  hopefully one day perhaps I will get somewhere near. I might try a search before starting another thread but thanks for your advice anyway . Best regards Dave.

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, DaveBaxt said:

The oak was just a give away by a plumber who thought it might be useful. I have other woods at hand such as bass wood. Its is my intention to try lime wood for my masts but eventually thinking of moving onto box wood

Your main problem is probably that it is Oak that you are working with.

 

This is how I categorize your stock for my purposes:

Oak of any species in either family: Red Oak or White Oak,  are scale inappropriate for miniature scales.  Ignoring the open pores and distinct and high contrast grain, you are finding that the fibers can roll, and are prone to tear out.  It would be among my very last choices of commercial hardwoods to use.  Right with Oak is Ash, Hickory, Willow, Chestnut, Sassafras, softer Elm and any sort of Cottonwood (This whole family is awful. They are fast growing trash trees.)

 

Lime is excellent for full size carving,  carved hulls, but is too soft for me.  Basswood is a near relative from North America. BUT, it is about one half as hard as Lime and Lime is already really soft.  It is difficult to get Basswood to hold a sharp edge.

 

Boxwood  - real Boxwood - Buxus simpervirens - is a common wood used in the 17th century models.  It is all but impossible to source in any size suitable for major hull structures.  What you can get should probably be horded for figurehead and decorative carvings as well as blocks and deadeyes.   What you may be able to get in any size is a South American substitute - Castelo boxwood - Calycophyllum multiflorum.  The two species have become so confused  that it is often regarded with the same cachet as true Boxwood.  This has increased the demand, and the price, and reduced the availability.  The characteristics of the two are very similar.  It is not the same though.  If your goal is prestige and bragging rights and how much you spend is of no consequence, have at it.  It will achieve that for you.  If you are after a practical, less expensive, and readily obtainable stock of wood to use, there are other options closer to home.

 

Looking at the Wood Database I see the following possibilities:

Sycamore Maple - good for most any part including spars   ( avoid any sort of Soft Maple species )

European Hornbeam

European Beech

Silver Birch

Pear -  if you like darker wood - get as much as you can -

Apple - is king

Holly - the only limitation is getting any and affording it if you can.

 

Imports that you may have a shot at

Lancewood - spars

Yellowheart

 

 

 

[Gregory]

1 minute ago, Jaager said:

Oak of any species in either family: Red Oak or White Oak,  are scale inappropriate for miniature scales. 

I think Dave was just using the oak for a jig...

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, bruce d said:

BTW, when I had the FET I made a spacer/adapter to allow use of thin slitting saws (because I had some sitting around) and they gave a very good result on Castello and other not-too-hard woods.

I am assuming you made the spacer on a metal turning lathe . Unfortunately  i do not own such a machine but sounds like I could do with a few slitting saws for the Castello wood which I have just ordered. By the way how do you store the wood . End up or somewhere flat. Just want to make sure it doesn't warp?

[bruce d]

Flat. Definitely flat. 👍 

[Gregory]

Dave,

I have heard this may be a good source for slitting blades in UK

 

MSC Industrial Supply

 

I find their catalog a little difficult to navigate because they have so many products, but they would probably respond to an email with the specs you are looking for - arbor, diameter, kerf & etc..

Edited January 28, 2022 by Gregory

[DaveBaxt]

21 minutes ago, Jaager said:

Your main problem is probably that it is Oak that you are working with.

 

This is how I categorize your stock for my purposes:

Oak of any species in either family: Red Oak or White Oak,  are scale inappropriate for miniature scales.  Ignoring the open pores and distinct and high contrast grain, you are finding that the fibers can roll, and are prone to tear out.  It would be among my very last choices of commercial hardwoods to use.  Right with Oak is Ash, Hickory, Willow, Chestnut, Sassafras, softer Elm and any sort of Cottonwood (This whole family is awful. They are fast growing trash trees.)

 

Lime is excellent for full size carving,  carved hulls, but is too soft for me.  Basswood is a near relative from North America. BUT, it is about one half as hard as Lime and Lime is already really soft.  It is difficult to get Basswood to hold a sharp edge.

 

Boxwood  - real Boxwood - Buxus simpervirens - is a common wood used in the 17th century models.  It is all but impossible to source in any size suitable for major hull structures.  What you can get should probably be horded for figurehead and decorative carvings as well as blocks and deadeyes.   What you may be able to get in any size is a South American substitute - Castelo boxwood - Calycophyllum multiflorum.  The two species have become so confused  that it is often regarded with the same cachet as true Boxwood.  This has increased the demand, and the price, and reduced the availability.  The characteristics of the two are very similar.  It is not the same though.  If your goal is prestige and bragging rights and how much you spend is of no consequence, have at it.  It will achieve that for you.  If you are after a practical, less expensive, and readily obtainable stock of wood to use, there are other options closer to home.

 

Looking at the Wood Database I see the following possibilities:

Sycamore Maple - good for most any part including spars   ( avoid any sort of Soft Maple species )

European Hornbeam

European Beech

Silver Birch

Pear -  if you like darker wood - get as much as you can -

Apple - is king

Holly - the only limitation is getting any and affording it if you can.

 

Imports that you may have a shot at

Lancewood - spars

Yellowheart

Thank you for that fantastic information and something I can now keep for reference. For the record I believe Maple is readily available here in the uk . So I see I could consider that as hopefully a cheaper alternative to Castello Boxwood which I found to be quite expensive , although it should hopefully go along way.. One more question if I may. Is the wood Database on this foorum? Best regards Dave

[Jaager]

The Wood Database url:

https://www.wood-database.com/wood-filter/

[DaveBaxt]

6 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Dave,

I have heard this may be a good source for slitting blades in UK

 

MSC Industrial Supply

 

I find their catalog a little difficult to navigate because they have so many products, but they would probably respond to an email with the specs you are looking for - arbor, diameter, kerf & etc..

Thank you once again Gregory. I have just had a quick look and they don,t seem to have anything with a 10mm bore. So unless I have a spacer. I will however do as you have suggested and send them an email and see what they come up with. I do have in my spares a rotary saw blade with 300 teeth . So would this be classed as a slitting saw and could be used for  the likes of Castello Boxwood? Just a thought.Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

9 minutes ago, Jaager said:

The Wood Database url:

https://www.wood-database.com/wood-filter/

Fantastic. Just had a quick look at the Castello Boxwood. Lots of data/information. A lot of which went over the top of my head, However a least I can make a few comparisons. At some stage I will need to find out what the different terms actually mean. But once again thank you for all your help. Best regards Dave

[bruce d]

BORE REDUCING BUSH DIAMOND BLADE/WHEEL/DISC/SAW BLADE CHOOSE SIZE REQUIRED | eBay

 

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, DaveBaxt said:

a rotary saw blade with 300 teeth . So would this be classed as a slitting saw and could be used for  the likes of Castello Boxwood?

 

There is information on table saw blade selection in the articles database here.  Specifically:

https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/ByrnesTableSawTips.pdf

The blade part is generic and not just for the Byrnes saw.

 

Playing with the physics

Blade set -  the angle out from the blade disk for the teeth  -alternating R&L - it  increase the loss to kerf.  The greater the set the rougher is the surface of a sliced board.  It also eases the work that a saw most supply to get thru a board.

A slotting blade may have a high TPI and no set.  The design purpose is probably for shallow cuts thru metal.

No set = less loss to kerf, a blade disk that is in friction contact with the cut surface of the board.  The friction may burn the wood, heat the blade and it may wandered in a serpentine track thru the wood.

TPI - the cutting edge is a knife that shaves off curls of wood.  There is a gullet under the edge to hold the curls.  If the gullet fills part way thru a cut - the knife no longer cuts, it friction rubs.   I believe the "rule is 3 teeth in the thickness of the board being cut. 

Fewer teeth and the edge is probably an ax and not a knife - a hammer effect.  Too many teeth and the gullets fill before they leave a cut.

I theorize that higher density wood has less air and more material to remove.  This increases the work that a motor must provide.  There is more material per slice so the gullet fills more quickly. This means that the feed rate must be slow.  Fewer teeth gets you back to the hammer effect.

Blade thickness - a thinner blade produces less kerf.  It also heats more quickly and is prone to flex as it seeks the path of least resistance.  A balance is what is required unless loss to kerf is not a care.

 

 

[No Idea]

3 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

Fantastic. Just had a quick look at the Castello Boxwood. Lots of data/information. A lot of which went over the top of my head, However a least I can make a few comparisons. At some stage I will need to find out what the different terms actually mean. But once again thank you for all your help. Best regards Dave

Hi Dave - I get all of my Castello from Timberline and have found them to be fantastic.  If you give them a call and explain that you are making a model ship, I have found that they will send you the best wood that they can.  They have also custom cut lengths for me at 8mm which they do charge for and I also had to wait.  However it really was worth it.  Having said that I haven't used anyone else in the UK.

[No Idea]

Sorry I should have said that this is a 90 degree router bit for your Proxxon.  They are not cheap but its what I use 

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/router-bits/111107-1-8-inch-shank-carbide-tipped-v-groove-router-bit?item=86J0423

 

Mark

[Charles Green]

I've checked MSC (they have a UK branch), and they have 10, 40 mm dia., slitting/slotting saws with 10mm arbor holes - The arbor hole for each item, as pictured, is listed as 0.3937 inch, the Imperial 10mm equivalent.   

 

Go to MSC and enter Slitting & Slotting Saws.  When that category comes up, here will be a filter on the left side of the page.  At the top of the filter, select slitting & slotting saws, go down and select arbor, then high speed steel, then Hole Dia., 10 mm.

 

[DaveBaxt]

13 hours ago, No Idea said:

Sorry I should have said that this is a 90 degree router bit for your Proxxon.  They are not cheap but its what I use 

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/router-bits/111107-1-8-inch-shank-carbide-tipped-v-groove-router-bit?item=86J0423

 

Mark

This is probably the answer and at the moment I have not been able to find one here in the UK. Thank you again Mark for helping me out on this. Best regards Dave

Edited January 29, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

9 hours ago, Charles Green said:

I've checked MSC (they have a UK branch), and they have 10, 40 mm dia., slitting/slotting saws with 10mm arbor holes - The arbor hole for each item, as pictured, is listed as 0.3937 inch, the Imperial 10mm equivalent.   

 

Go to MSC and enter Slitting & Slotting Saws.  When that category comes up, here will be a filter on the left side of the page.  At the top of the filter, select slitting & slotting saws, go down and select arbor, then high speed steel, then Hole Dia., 10 mm.

 

Great stuff and thank you for your help. I have just had a quick look and they offer 40mm diameter which I assume will be fine even though it is half the size of the Proxxon saw blades (80mm) .Best regards Dave

Edited January 29, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

13 hours ago, Jaager said:

 

There is information on table saw blade selection in the articles database here.  Specifically:

https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/ByrnesTableSawTips.pdf

The blade part is generic and not just for the Byrnes saw.

 

Playing with the physics

Blade set -  the angle out from the blade disk for the teeth  -alternating R&L - it  increase the loss to kerf.  The greater the set the rougher is the surface of a sliced board.  It also eases the work that a saw most supply to get thru a board.

A slotting blade may have a high TPI and no set.  The design purpose is probably for shallow cuts thru metal.

No set = less loss to kerf, a blade disk that is in friction contact with the cut surface of the board.  The friction may burn the wood, heat the blade and it may wandered in a serpentine track thru the wood.

TPI - the cutting edge is a knife that shaves off curls of wood.  There is a gullet under the edge to hold the curls.  If the gullet fills part way thru a cut - the knife no longer cuts, it friction rubs.   I believe the "rule is 3 teeth in the thickness of the board being cut. 

Fewer teeth and the edge is probably an ax and not a knife - a hammer effect.  Too many teeth and the gullets fill before they leave a cut.

I theorize that higher density wood has less air and more material to remove.  This increases the work that a motor must provide.  There is more material per slice so the gullet fills more quickly. This means that the feed rate must be slow.  Fewer teeth gets you back to the hammer effect.

Blade thickness - a thinner blade produces less kerf.  It also heats more quickly and is prone to flex as it seeks the path of least resistance.  A balance is what is required unless loss to kerf is not a care.

Another terrific response. Hopefully now , armed with this information and your previous responses . I now have a better idea of what is required and will make a better choice when picking the type of wood and cutting disc for a specific application.Once again thank you for your time and patience. Best regards Dave

 

 

[DelF]

Dave

 

I use this set of Proxxon bits, which includes a 90 degree v-cutter. I believe it can be bought separately.

 

[DaveBaxt]

50 minutes ago, DelF said:

Dave

 

I use this set of Proxxon bits, which includes a 90 degree v-cutter. I believe it can be bought separately.

 

Mark I already own this set. However when I measured the angle of the cutter it is quite a bit less than 90 deg. But wondering if it may work anyway ?

Thank you once again for all your help. Best regards Dave

[DelF]

You might want to double check Dave. I used a digital angle finder to measure the v-cutter, and whilst it's not easy to get a reading on such a small bit, I doubt if it was  as much as a degree or two off a right angle. Depending on the application that should be accurate enough.

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, DelF said:

You might want to double check Dave. I used a digital angle finder to measure the v-cutter, and whilst it's not easy to get a reading on such a small bit, I doubt if it was  as much as a degree or two off a right angle. Depending on the application that should be accurate enough.

I will give it a quick run through some wood and see how the square masts sit in there . Maybe  I should have tried this before posting this thread and wasting every ones time. However I have no regrets starting this discussion as it has lead me into all kinds of directions and to some great information.

                          For the moment however I have just tested positive for Covid  and feeling a bit rough. Fortunately I have had three doses of vaccines so hopefully will be well enough to carry on modelling and it will be an excuse to self isolate in my workshop for 5 days or more. So hopefully something good will come out of this pandemic or at least for me . Best regards Dave

[DelF]

Oh no! Hope you feel better soon

[bruce d]

Dave, best wishes, think carefully before using power tools when ill (at the risk of sounding like my mother!)

[mtaylor]

I hope you have full and good recovery, Dave.  What Bruce mentioned is well worth thinking about.

[AJohnson]

Best wishes Dave, hope you recover quickly. 

[tkay11]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:06 PM, bruce d said:

BTW, when I had the FET I made a spacer/adapter to allow use of thin slitting saws (because I had some sitting around) and they gave a very good result on Castello and other not-too-hard woods

 

@bruce d: When I first saw this post, I briefly wondered what you meant by a spacer/adapter. I have used a number of jigs when cutting with the thin slitting saw, but haven't thought of them as spacers or adapters. Could you let me know what you meant? I'm intrigued in case I'm missing a neat trick.

 

Tony

[DaveBaxt]

39 minutes ago, tkay11 said:

 

@bruce d: When I first saw this post, I briefly wondered what you meant by a spacer/adapter. I have used a number of jigs when cutting with the thin slitting saw, but haven't thought of them as spacers or adapters. Could you let me know what you meant? I'm intrigued in case I'm missing a neat trick.

 

Tony

I think he meant a spacer to change the interenal diameter from the FET saw blades 10mm to the diameter of the blades used by a Byrnes saw ,so you can then use their blades. I would be interested to know a bit more about your spacer/adaptor for cutting the Castello Boxwood. I don,t suppose you have a photo ? 

[DaveBaxt]

On 1/29/2022 at 6:30 PM, bruce d said:

Dave, best wishes, think carefully before using power tools when ill (at the risk of sounding like my mother!)

Thank you Bruce and Sound advice as I am feeling a bit doped up at the moment. Just trying to go over everything I have learned in the last few days. Its like being back at school. Haha. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[bruce d]

9 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

52 minutes ago, tkay11 said:

Expand  

I think he meant a spacer to change the interenal diameter from the FET saw blades 10mm

Correct. I made mine but they are available on Ebay. 

For clarity, the spacer fits into the bore of the new blade and slides onto the arbour. It doesn't have to be tight, just a good sliding fit to keep the new blade dead centre on the arbour. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by bruce d