Planking glues

[ChiefCarr]

Hi everyone, 

I planked my first model, The Terror. I used rubber cement to attach the second wood, the sapele exterior. I want to coat with something to make the wood last longer because I'm afraid the rubber cement will fail after a while. I thought about painting over the top with a watered down wood glue "paint" so it may soak in a little and attach adjacent planks together. What has your experience been? Will the rubber cement be sufficient?  Short of a resin/fiberglass coat to really re-enforce my work what do you recommend? I appreciate all your help and advice! 

 

Thank you all! 

[ChiefCarr]

Here's a pic of the port side covered in this beautiful veneer

[mtaylor]

I'm not sure there's any coating you can put on the outside to keep the second layer on.   It might be a better option to add treenails to the planks.  

 

I know others will answer so wait and see what they say.

[allanyed]

Hi Carr,

WELCOME to MSW!!!!

 

For a first-time planking job, yours looks very nice.  I am curious as to why you used rubber cement instead of a glue that is meant for wood to wood.  

 

Cheers

 

Allan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[druxey]

Rubber cement is not, alas a permanent adhesive. It may last several years, but.... There are a range of options, but I use white (polyvinyl acetate) glue for most wood applications in model-making. Others may have other preferences, but I'd also avoid cyanoacrylate (crazy) glues.

[allanyed]

Druxey,

Is there a reason you use white rather than yellow (AKA Carpenter's) glue?    Obviously both work but I am curious as to how you made your choice.

Thanks

Allan

[wefalck]

This 'yellow glue' seems to be a Northamerican specificity. I didn't hear about it until joining this forum. Over here in Europe (or at least Germany) we use 'white' (PVA) glue, unless you really go for the old-style carpenter hide-glue.

 

'Rubber cement' in this context also would worry me, as I understood this to be a something with which you mount pieces of paper temporarily, so that you can be peel them off after a while.

 

Anyway, it is a nice tight planking job, that would deserve to be reinforced with dowelling to make it long-term stable. The dowels should be dunked into white (yellow) glue to keep them in place.

 

I found it always somewhat strange that people comment on someone having done a good job on a 'first' - why not, when someone works carefully, with patience, and follows the recommendations e.g. for planking layout? Also we don't know what other (woodworking) experience the person may have had already. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by wefalck

[mtaylor]

6 hours ago, wefalck said:

I found it always somewhat strange that people comment on someone having done a good job on a 'first' - why not, when someone works carefully, with patience, and follows the recommendations e.g. for planking layout? Also we don't know what other (woodworking) experience the person may have had already. 

I suspect that it's because most builder's "first builds" weren't up their own standards....  takes a bit of time to build skills with some having some skills as you point out and others (maybe most?) not having any.

[bridgman]

How would one add treenails to fasten veneer planking? Would the veneer be to thin for the treenails to 

hold it place.

A very nice planking job!

Bridgman Bob

 

[Jaager]

It is my guess, but perhaps Franklin was first on the market with yellow PVA and it gained enough of the market attract competitors.  Effective advertising and placement in how-to magazines did the rest.

 

As for the rubber cement - Over time the bond will fail. No surface treatment is likely to save it.

Bamboo dowels may, but there is not much backing support for them.  The wood species makes it more decorator than historical, so even brass pins could enhance the presentation. There is still the problem of not enough support thickness.

 

A more permanent  solution may be to number each plank.  Treat the hull with n-Hepane to solubilize the rubber cement.  Remove the planking.  Clean all surfaces of cement.  Then reapply the planking using PVA.

 

The re-application processes is a lot like the kit coming with pre-cut and pre-bent planking. Except that instead of a computer guided laser, it is a human guided tool.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Jaager

[Gregory]

19 minutes ago, bridgman said:

How would one add treenails to fasten veneer planking?

For most modeling purposes, 'treenailing' is for effect rather than fastening.

 

It is a convention that has evolved  in wood ship modeling  with no basis in accurate depiction for anything less than the largest of scales such as 1:24  and beyond.

 

With veneer or otherwise, when actual planking processes are not reasonably followed, with regard to plank length and butt placement,  the attractiveness of simulating treenailing rapidly diminishes.

[Jaager]

Just now, Gregory said:

For most modeling purposes, 'treenailing' is for effect rather than fastening.

For POF trunnels can add significant hold strength.   There are many contemporary models that use either brass or wood and some with both.  The diameter is out of scale.  No reference to support this, but I think that the choice of glue then was hide glue.  It would likely have been either a home made extract or a cottage made product - no QA.   Both English and French built models have doweling.  The patterns and numbers match full size requirements.   My money is on there being method behind most everything the old guys did.  It was a professional and shop built operation back then.

 

Pins and trunnels can be effective clamps also.  Although using bamboo trunnels to hold wet planks down can be tricky.  Some species of bamboo are strong and hold up to push pressure.  Some species are not so strong.  They bend  and crack.  The perverse aspect is that the softer species are much easier to pull and have a higher yield.  A high speed electric drill with industrial HSS bits of standardized diameters probably makes this much easier for us.    

[Gregory]

7 minutes ago, Jaager said:

There are many contemporary models that use either brass or wood and some with both.  The diameter is out of scale. 

Which would indicate it was a matter of fastening rather than modeling actual practice..

 

Understandable in the absence of PVA and CA..

[ChiefCarr]

18 hours ago, Jaager said:

It is my guess, but perhaps Franklin was first on the market with yellow PVA and it gained enough of the market attract competitors.  Effective advertising and placement in how-to magazines did the rest.

 

As for the rubber cement - Over time the bond will fail. No surface treatment is likely to save it.

Bamboo dowels may, but there is not much backing support for them.  The wood species makes it more decorator than historical, so even brass pins could enhance the presentation. There is still the problem of not enough support thickness.

 

A more permanent  solution may be to number each plank.  Treat the hull with n-Hepane to solubilize the rubber cement.  Remove the planking.  Clean all surfaces of cement.  Then reapply the planking using PVA.

 

The re-application processes is a lot like the kit coming with pre-cut and pre-bent planking. Except that instead of a computer guided laser, it is a human guided tool.

 

18 hours ago, Jaager said:

It is my guess, but perhaps Franklin was first on the market with yellow PVA and it gained enough of the market attract competitors.  Effective advertising and placement in how-to magazines did the rest.

 

As for the rubber cement - Over time the bond will fail. No surface treatment is likely to save it.

Bamboo dowels may, but there is not much backing support for them.  The wood species makes it more decorator than historical, so even brass pins could enhance the presentation. There is still the problem of not enough support thickness.

 

A more permanent  solution may be to number each plank.  Treat the hull with n-Hepane to solubilize the rubber cement.  Remove the planking.  Clean all surfaces of cement.  Then reapply the planking using PVA.

 

The re-application processes is a lot like the kit coming with pre-cut and pre-bent planking. Except that instead of a computer guided laser, it is a human guided tool.

I was thinking about this as the best solution. All the pieces will fit well, and I'll be able to glue them in the same spot they're in now. I tried a test of painting carpenters glue over the top to see if it would bond the edges and it seems to have done so. I really appreciate the help. I'll post progress and see what works! Thanks to everyone! 

[wefalck]

Just thinking: as it is RubberCement®, you migh be able to peel off the 'planks' one by one, clean the area (not sure what solvent works on the stuff) and place the plank back with PVA glue ... in this way, you keep the nice layout and if you break a plank, you can use the bits as template to make a new plank to fit nicely into the gap.

Edited April 8, 2022 by wefalck

[druxey]

Allan: PVA is colorless when dry, and aliphatic is slightly colored. Personal preference. That said, I do use yellow (aliphatic) for really critical structural joints. There is little difference in bond strength. but aliphatic is far more moisture resistant.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Rubber cement and other 'contact' cements have failed for me over the course of years, so are not recommended for applications meant to last for decades.  This is why I take exception to some kits showing the use of contact cements for model building.  'Just saying.