Lights (windows) framing material

[allanyed]

I am considering buying a square hole draw plate to make very small material for the framing of the stern lights (the windows, not the lanterns).  Does anyone have experience with using a square hole plate for wood and if the experience is positive, a recommended brand?  I see them in a variety of size ranges and prices from under $20 to $80.    In addition, based on your experience, what wood species work well?  I would love to use holly for its color, but would be OK with box or castello or other similar color species.

TIA

 

Allan

Edited April 28, 2022 by allanyed

[druxey]

The issue with square-hole drawplates is that they are designed for pulling metal wire through. It essentially squeezes metal; it doesn't cut. Wood needs to be cut or shaved; it really doesn't squeeze well! That is why a drawplate for wood, such as the Byrnes' is of a different form than a traditional jewelers' drawplate. I don't know of such a square drawplate design on the market.

[allanyed]

Thanks Druxey, I thought that might be the case.

Allan

[wefalck]

I am also only aware of the wire draw-plates for jewellers. As the cutting angle during 'shaving' is zero, this would require quite a bit of force to pull/push the wood through, as you cannot easily do this in steps, as you would do for round material. Also, getting it straight might be a challenge, plus the stability of the wood.

 

I gather a shooting-board and planing or sanding might be a better option, unless you want/can somehow machine them.

[BANYAN]

Allan, there are sure to be better solutions offered by the more experienced/talented builder but I used a 'splitter' tool generally employed by RC aircraft builders.  I cut some very tight grained wood in thin strips to the required thickness to form the 'molded' dimension, then use this tool to take off thin strip to form the width of the stile etc.

 

Below is a picture of the tool which I use with a jig clamped to a solid and straight edged cutting surface.  I form a fence on the edge of the jig or table to guide the tool having clamped the strip to the surface (ensure it is square to cutting direction), and such that the cut strip between the tool and the stock ( I find that minimises the splitting sometimes experienced - a sharp blade is essential .   Apart from the splitting, the other reason I have the cut piece restrained by the tool, is to stop it 'curling'. I hope that all makes some sense?

 

There are various types out there, the first below is the style I used but I have also seriously thought of trying those card style cutters available from Office Supplies.  The second image is a foam cutter that may also work?

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

[TBlack]

Allan,

You don't mention the final dimensions that you require. I have been able to get 1/64" on my table saw. Give it a try, especially since you don't need long strips.

Tom

[Jaager]

If a thickness that is almost thin enough to read thru is needed, a very sharp plane may get you a semi thick shaving.

A knife and steel straight edge for the other dimension.

A compatible wood species would increase the probability of success.  No loss to kerf, either.

You would need to research the type of plane that does this.  I expect it will need a high quality plane and a whole lot of practice.

Maybe White Pine, because the examples of long wide curls from a plane seem to come from Pine.

Holly, because it bends so well may be an option. 

Advantage Lumber still shows the low quality, non-white stock at $6.00/BF  and some stock that is more clear for $12.00/BF.

Holly that has been infected by Blue Mold is just as sound as normal Holly, it is just blue or grey.

[allanyed]

Thanks to each of you!

 

These are similar to methods I have used in the past and will continue to use.   I usually thickness sand a slab to the thickness I need (0.015 to 0.04 depending on the scale) then slice with a scalpel and straight edge.  I have ordered a slitter similar to the one Pat shows to give it a try.

 

I have a good stock of white holly I like to use for deck planking that I am also using for the light frames well.   It looks good, but castello has sharper edges even if not as "bright"      

 

Thanks again

 

Allan

[druxey]

I thickness a sheet of wood, rubber cement it to a sacrificial backing of either basswood or illustration board, then run it through the table saw using a slitting blade. 1/64" square in holly or Castello is no problem.

[allanyed]

Thanks Druxey!   Simple yet effective!  Are you using mineral spirits or alcohol to remove the strip from the backing piece? 

 

Allan

Edited May 5, 2022 by allanyed

[druxey]

Neither, Allan. The cut pieces strip off the backing easily and remaining rubber cement removed with a piece of crepe rubber or finger.

[allanyed]

Easy peasy as the saying goes. Thanks again Druxey

[starlight]

Hi Allan,

 

I recently posted about my own "poor-man's method" of making small square strip: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/31939-shaping-thin-strip-without-power-tools/

 

 

Essentially, I use a cheap set of calipers as a drawplate. This has the advantage of being infinitely adjustable to any size you want, and you can gradually step down in size to control the material removal rate. The metal jaws of the calipers do a decent job of shaving away wood if you keep the depth of cut small.

 

I was able to make some 1x1 mm strip for waterways using this method:

 

 

You probably have access to much better tools than I do, but hopefully you find this interesting nonetheless.

 

-starlight

[allanyed]

Thanks Starlight, very much appreciated. I have tried this in the past with minimal success.  1mm is huge unless working at 1:24 scale as the muntins at 1:64 and 1:48 are 0.4mm and 0.53mm respectively.   I bought the cutting device Pat suggested in his first pic (thanks Pat!) and it works OK.  Next up is trying the pre-thicknessed piece rubber cemented to a sacrificial piece as Druxey suggested as I have slitting blades for my small table saw.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful suggestions, they are all truly appreciated.

Allan

 

 

[allanyed]

Another question has arisen on the stern lights frames.   I have been playing with a 1:196 POF model that is a giant bag of frustration.  I have been studying methods described in books by McCaffery, McNarry and Reed.  Even with the help of the work of these authors it is EXTREMELY difficult for me compared to larger scales, but wanted to give it a try.

 

My question regarding the stern lights -- was there a standard number of panes in each light on a 32 gun frigate mid 18th century?  I have seen

12, 9, 6, and 4, but not sure if one or the other or all were used in actual practice on a ship this size.  This particular model is based on the contemporary drawings of Boston 1762 so will follow the contemporary plan below which shows 6 panes but is it realistic?   The frame work at this scale is particularly difficult to make at scale so I have gone with 32 gage white coated wire in lieu of wood.  I tried 28 gage but it is pretty far out of scale so all the frames have been removed and I now await the new gauge wire which, as in many things these days, is out of stock.  (Any leads on this would also be most welcome😀)

 

Below is the Boston plan and photos of  contemporary models of other 32s from RMG as well as my less than stellar results at this scale.

Allan

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by allanyed

[druxey]

Generally panes were no larger than about 9" by 12". Some contemporary models show sashes as well, just to up the game. You can see tis in one of the photos you posted.

 

If you are building at 1:48, you should  be able to use 1/64" square Castello or similar to form the dividing muntins. The trick is an accurate card pattern of each light from which to work. One method is shown in TFFM, Volume II. Cuttigng and gluing wood will be easier than wire!

[wefalck]

The size of the window panes would depend on what material/process was available at the respective time and region. If I remember correctly (didn't cross-check on Wikipedia ...) float-glass was invented at the end of the 18th century in France (the glass-maker, St. Gobain, are still one of the biggest manufacturers in the Western world). So, French ships might have had larger panes, then could be traditionally made by blowing a cylinder, cutting it up lengthwise and then flattening it out.

 

Thinking about the problem, I wonder, whether it would be feasible to cut the frame-pieces from styrene strips and assemble these on a drawing of the respective window, as David suggested. If you go for rectangular cross-sections of the strips, you don't need to bother with mitres. However, if you were giving them a profile with a scraper, you would need to mitre them - but this would be quite a challenge in 1:192 scale, I think. In a next step you can cut the individual panes from clear styrene-sheet, fit them carefully and then drop them into the grille with some liquid styrene-cement.

 

A 'cheaper' variant of the above would be to assemble the above grille with water-soluble glue on a drawing and then to cement a clear styrene-sheet onto the back. The drawing then can be removed by soaking the assembly in water.

[allanyed]

Thanks David and Eberhard.  I have used the methods you describe with success in the past but at 1:196, it is whole different ball game as the width of the muntins is about 0.008"   The smallest styrene I can find is 0.01 so a tad too large, but maybe workable.    I have a small supply of English boxwood and will see what I can come up with using that material and see how these all compare.   FUN TIMES!!

Allan

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by allanyed

[wefalck]

There are 0.2 mm sheets of styrene

 

I wonder, whether it would be possible to take a sheet of clear Perspex / Plexiglas and directly 3D-print the pattern of mutins on it, rather than on the usual base.

 

I personally have no experience with this kind of material, but some people draw out over a heat-source waste styrene from kits into thin 'wires'. This might be easier to work with, than wire. It probably needs some practice to obtain wires of uniform thickness.

[Gregory]

Common card stock is also about .01  I find it behaves a lot like wood..

 

How would you mill your boxwood thinner than .01?

[Roger Pellett]

Allen,

 

Have you considered square cross section brass wire?  It might be possible using a miniature table saw to cut slots in a block of wood to make a form.  The window grids would then be fabricated by soldering the brass wire joints. To avoid big blobs of solder very small diameter solder is available.  I just bought some .015in diameter solder.

 

Roger

[druxey]

Oooh! You didn't mention scale, Allan! 1:196 is certainly a very different proposition. Photoetch, perhaps?

Edited August 25, 2022 by druxey

[allanyed]

WOW, lots of great ideas to try.

Gregory, card stock might just work!  Thank you very much.  As to milling, I have thickness sanded various woods down to 0.01 and thinner with my Byrnes thickness sander  but it usually curls and is so fragile that it has not worked well for me in the past.   I have not tried it with English box but may give it a try.

 

Roger, I had not thought of your idea, but it sounds like another great one to try.  I would need to find a blade that will leave slots under 0.01 wide.  I have a blade on order that is 0.015 for making the gratings, but I need to see if there are slotting blades under 0.01.

Thanks to all, this has been an eye opener for me!!

 

David,  Yeah, 1:196.  Dopey me trying this but what the heck.   Know anyone that does photoetching? 😀  I gave up doing etching myself years ago.  Maybe time for another go at it.  Maybe better to go back to Litchfield at 1:64 🤐

 

Allan

Edited August 25, 2022 by allanyed