drilling hole through wire

[BETAQDAVE]

Looking for suggestions about best way to drill a hole through a 1.15mm brass wire for a 0.50mm wire eyebolt as shown below.  Also, that 1.15mm wire needs to be widened to about 1.70mm where the hole is.

 

[vossy]

Maybe out of left field, but how about taking it to a jewellers?

 

[druxey]

Presumably the wire is flattened first to widen it. Anneal to soften the metal, then centermark and drill.

[Dr PR]

Dave,

 

I hope you get a good answer!

 

I have tried 3D printing hand rails at 1:96 scale and they are so fragile that it seems that breathing heavily over then will break them!

 

I need to work with 1.5 ", 1.25" and 1" outside diameter pipe railings. At 1:96 that is 0.016" (0.4 mm),  0.013" (0.33 mm) and 0.010" ((0.26 mm) brass wire. Drilling a 0.013" hole in0.016" wire will require a milling machine with very little runout, and a very accurate table positioning setup (and a tremendous amount of patience). I think Sherline makes a machine that might work.

[Bob Cleek]

You might want to check out Model Building with Brass by Ken Foran. Model Building with Brass book by Ken Foran (thriftbooks.com) This relatively new book contains a wealth of information on the subject.

 

There are surely those with far more experience that I who will weigh in, so for what little it may be worth, if it is the "fork on a rod with a hole drilled in a thick spot just above the neck of the fork" in the diagram that you want to make, you might want to "do the math" first. While I can't tell from the drawing whether the hole is to be drilled through a "flattened" section of the rod or through a round sectioned "swelled" or "ball" section of the rod, either way, I don't think you can fabricate a 1.70 MM flat (or "ball") with a .50 MM (or slightly larger) hole on a length of 1.15 MM brass rod without adding material to the 1.15 MM rod stock. There doesn't seem to be enough "meat" there to work the available material do it.

 

I don't know if you have a suitable lathe, which would make the task relatively easy, but even without a lathe, the task is possible, but will take more care and time. Simply put, the fork, neck, and "ball with a hole in it" is formed from square bar machinable brass and the 1.15 MM wire stock is silver-soldered into a hole in the end of the "ball with a hole in it. As the part looks like it's not the only one on the model, machining it as explained below makes the uniform fabrication of a number of the same part a lot easier "on an assembly line" basis. You can modify the following suggestion to suit the tools you have available if necessary. 

 

1.)     Cut a section of solid machinable square brass bar stock of the exact square section size as the forks and as long as the distance between the open end of the fork and the "ball with a hole in it, plus a suitable length to permit drilling a tailstock center and parting off at the end of the "ball with a hole in it."  If the forks are not square in section, use square stock the same size as the widest dimension of the fork. If you can't find square bar stock exactly the size of the fork's (widest) outside dimension, use square bar stock of the least-oversized bar stock available. 

 

2.)     Using machinist's "Prussian blue" or alcohol soluble permanent marker ink, carefully layout the placement of the two holes necessary the shape of the fork ends, the "notch" in the solid square bar to be removed to form the two sides of the fork, the shape of the ends of the fork sides, the "neck" of the fork, and the diameter of the "ball" section.  If you must use bar stock that is oversized and/or the fork is rectangular in section, layout the amount of waste to be removed to reduce the fork to the proper outside dimensions taking care that the amounts to be removed are equal on both sides of the stock retained in order to retain the concentricity of the forks, the "neck" and the "ball with a hole in it. Also mark the dead centers of each end of the section of bar stock.

 

3.)      Preferably using a drill press or mill/drill (preferably with an x-y table) to ensure perpendicularity, drill two holes of the required diameter(s) entirely through the flat-sided solid bar stock in the appropriate locations, one to form the eyes of the fork and one to form the hole in the "rod." (These two holes are drilled parallel to each other through the centerline of the bar stock.) Carefully drill a suitably sized center hole in the "ball with a hole in it" end of the bar stock to accommodate the lathe tailstock center, which would preferably be a live center if one is available.

 

4.)     Chuck the fork end of bar stock into the lathe headstock and mount the tailstock center into the other end of the bar. Turn the shapes of the fork shoulders, "neck" between the fork shoulders and the "ball with a hole in it," and the "ball" itself following the layout forming the "shoulders and neck" of the fork and the "ball" shape as per the layout and the detail of the part shape as you've laid it out. (The .50 MM hole will end up exactly in the middle of the "ball" section if your layout and drilling was accurate.) Turning the "ball" shape can be done using a file to shape it by eye (and template), by a custom half-round cutting tool, or a template and "duplicating" attachment on the lathe, or even a "ball turner" if one is available. However, the shape of the end of the ball where the hole will be drilled to insert the 1.15 MM wire must be decided first. If it is to have a "sharp" transition, the end of the ball can be perfectly round. If it is to appear to transition gradually to the diameter of the 1.15 MM wire, the curved transition will have to be formed when turning the ball. The completion of the forming of the end of the ball, however, is best done by parting off the surplus end of the bar and doing the shaping "in the open" free of the tailstock center. When the "ball with the hole in it has been parted, but the "bottom end" not completely turned, leaving the workpiece in the headstock chuck, place a tailstock chuck holding a 1.15 MM drill bit in the tailstock and, using the tailstock advance, drill through the center of the end of the ball end and through to hole in the ball. Then finish the turning of the ball end. If a curved shoulder transition between the ball and the 1.15 MM wire is desired, a short piece of the 1.15 MM wire can be inserted and the "shoulder" between the ball and the wire worked right up to the wire to turn a seamless transition. Note, however, that there isn't a lot of "meat" in the "ball" to hold the 1.15 MM wire. The larger you can make the "ball," the more space there will be for the 1.15 MM hole. By your measurements, there will only be .275 MM on either side of the 1.15 MM hole into the 1.70 MM ball. This won't matter once a good silver-soldered joint is making it all one piece, but the size of the hole will impact the appearance of the ball and you may have to do some drawing and planning of the shape of the ball so the appearance of a "swelled ball on a 1.15 MM shaft" is achieved. An experimental "dry run" on the wire to ball connection is probably indicated and it may be necessary to turn down the diameter of the 1.15 MM wire to provide a "peg" at the end to be soldered into a smaller hole in the "ball." +

 

5.)       Remove the workpiece from the lathe. If the fork is smaller than the bar stock on two or four sides, carefully remove the excess material to yield the proper dimensions of the fork. This is a piece of cake if you have mill or even a drill press with an x-y table as it is light work.  Otherwise, a flat belt or disk sander or file should do the trick. With the dimensions of the fork established, shape the ends of the fork (simultaneously) using whatever tools are available. (They appear to be half-rounded.)

 

6.)    After forming the ends of the fork sides, using a mill if you have one, or a jeweler's saw and files if you don't, remove the waste center of the solid bar to form the space between the two fork sides. This is tricky If not using a mill.  Using hand tools demands that care be taken to cut sufficiently "wide of the line" to permit accurate filing or using abrasive tape to ensure straight and perpendicular faces of the jaws on either side of the open space between them. The "slot" between the fork sides has to be accurately machined if the resulting fork is to look good. Accurate layout is essential. If the slot cannot be milled, a drill press (preferably with an accurate x-y table) can be used to drill a series of suitably sized holes through the square stock to remove most of the waste between the fork sides. Assuming the "waste removal" holes are accurately drilled, they can provide a valuable index for hand-shaping. The bulk of the waste can be roughly removed by sawing with a jeweler's saw to "connect the holes" and files can rough out the rest, taking care not to remove any material deeper than the edge of the drilled holes. Once "roughed out," machinist's "Prussian blue" or an alcohol-soluble permanent marker can be used to mark the faces of the exactly drilled "waste removal" holes. Thus marked, final shaping can be completed very accurately using the "bluing" to indicate the desired "flat" to be formed.

 

7.)    Polish the part as required. Clean the part well as per standard silver-soldering procedure paying particular attention to the inside of the 1.15 MM hole in the end of the "ball with the hole in it. Insert a suitable length of 1.15 MM wire in the hole in the end of the ball to a depth which is not less than the inside edge of the drilled hole inside end of the 1.15 MM hole. This is essential to provide as much of a contact surface between the two parts as possible for the solder joint as discussed above. Silver-solder the two pieces together.  Using a drill and/or a round jeweler's file, remove the end portion of the 1.15 MM wire inside the hole in the "ball with a hole in it" so that the inside of the hole is smooth all around. Remove any excess solder from the face of the piece. The silver-solder joint on the face of the "ball" and inside the hole in the ball, should be invisible if you are better at it than I usually am.  

 

As usual, it's easier done than said. Hope this helps.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Drilling a 0.013" hole in0.016" wire will require a milling machine with very little runout, and a very accurate table positioning setup (and a tremendous amount of patience). I think Sherline makes a machine that might work.

A milling machine is the only way I have been able to do this kind of operation with a high degree of success.  If it is as small as yours I chuck the bit with about a mm protruding from the chuck so it will not flex.  If the hole needs to be deeper, I at least get the center mark where it should be then can bring the bit out further. 

 

I love my Sherline, so a good choice based on my own experience, limited as it is. I know that you know, but for others that may not have had the experience, HIGH quality bits are a must.  

 

Allan

[bartley]

I have done this on 2 mm brass rod with a good success rate.  My technique was:

 

1. I used a mill to ensure the hole was vertical.

 

2, I used a V bar and centered the drill bit on the V before clamping the rod into the V

 

3. I used a Kyocera bit as they a very sharp

 

4. You can file a very small flat on the side where the drill will enter but I did not find this necessary.

 

John

[Roger Pellett]

I like to drill with conventional HSS Drill bitts.  I use my Sherline Lathe fitted with a milling column and sensitive drilling attachment.  This allows me to clamp the object being drilled in a vise secured to the lathe cross slide to accurately position the drill bit over the center punched mark.  I do not have the touch for using carbide drill bitts.  They usually shatter on the first hole.

 

My current project involves cross drilling a .020” hole through a 1/16” brass tube.  I need 48 of these tiny pieces.  I decided to drill them as a row of holes along the tube, the individual pieces to be cut apart later.  I filed a flat on the top of the tube and center punched each hole location.  I had bought a brand new set 61-80 Gyros Brand wire sized drills from Amazon. I chucked the correct sized drill bitt and started drilling.  Each of the first 8 holes took forever even with considerable pressure on the drill.  Different lubricants and drill speeds made no difference.  Frustrated, I rummaged around my tool supplies and found a similar sized no-named drill bitt bought long ago.  It drilled through each hole like it was butter. 

 

The Gyros drills heavily promoted by Amazon are Chinese Imports. I just ordered a set of Made in USA replacements.  

 

Roger

[Bob Cleek]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

The Gyros drills heavily promoted by Amazon are Chinese Imports. I just ordered a set of Made in USA replacements.  

Right you are. Gyros is another Chinese pirate product. The "real deal" original is the U.S. made V.F. Rogers Drill Bit Set - #61 to #80. However, V.F.Rogers, the original manufacturer, doesn't seem to be in business anymore. MicroMark is selling the Rogers Drill Bit Set which they say they get from Excel hobby knives company. Excel's catalog says they are made in the U.S.A., but I don't know if Excel is now making them or just wholesaling them or what. They've been around for a long time. Another mystery thanks to the world of "offshoring" and Chinese import tool clones. 

 

$30 from MicroMark. The Rogers Drill Bit Set, #61 - #80 (Set Of 20), 20 drill bits from #61 to #80, Includes an indexed drill bit stand, Ultra-sharp high-speed drill bits (micromark.com)  $30.00 USD from MicroMark.  $53.51 USD from Excel Hobby Blade Corporation, which makes or wholesales them these days. 20 Piece Drill Dome Set – Excel Blades You can get individual wire gauge bits from McMaster-Carr, but they aren't cheap! drill bits | McMaster-Carr.  MicroMark sometimes sells little plastic tubes with ten or a dozen wire gauge bits of the same size at dramatically reduced prices as "loss leaders" when they have their big annual sales. I bought the whole range of 20 bits for the Rogers' stand in tubes of ten from MicroMark some time ago. So far, they seem to work fine. Buying them singly to replace broken bits in the drill stand can get painful quickly. McMaster-Carr wants $5.54 USD apiece for an 80 ga. 3/4" long uncoated HSS bit and $1.39 USD for a 60 ga. 1 5/8" one. I don't doubt that the McMaster-Carr bits will cut better and be better all-around in terms of quality control, but I have no idea if they break any less than the cheaper (and probably Chinese made) bits from the hobby outlets. There's a break-even point there somewhere, but I have no idea whether paying top dollar for U.S. made commercial quality bits is worth the money for general modeling use. 

 

Original V.F. Rogers Drill Bit Set. Note "Drill Stand" embossed on top of base center, not "Gyros" letter "G."

 

Original Rogers drill stand bottoms: Manufacturer's ID and patent number: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Roger Pellett]

I’m used to the Real Rogers Drill bitts and still have my Rogers stand.  The replacement drills on order are Chicago Latrobe, supposed to be made in the USA.  We’ll see.

 

Roger

[BETAQDAVE]

    While I did manage, with a heavy needle, to make a center mark and start drilling the hole in the wire with a bit in a machinist’s pin vice, it was very slow going. At first, I was actually making some progress, but after 10-12 minutes or so, the result was a hole less than ¼ of the way through and a broken bit.

    I took out another drill bit, but this time I left the bit extended just 5mm to reduce the amount of flex and used this battery powered General drill that has low RPMs but high torque.

 

    It was easier to maintain a steady alignment with the hole than it was with the pin vice especially since drilling metal usually takes quite a while. However the primary problem I encountered was the fact that the bits appeared to be quite dull. This was evident when I tried to drill a hole for several minutes through a flat piece of brass that barely made a scratch. With the larger sized bits it’s easy to see if they truly are sharp, but unless viewing through a microscope, these tiny bits would be difficult to confirm that they really are.

    While I have several tiny HSS bit sets from various sources including the original V.F. Rogers Drill Bit Set with the domed cover, I can’t seem to get any better results with any of them.

    Has anyone here had any better luck with ceramic bit sets or the 1/8” shank bits with the plastic size collars on them? At this point I would be willing to pay a bit more to get better results.

[Bob Cleek]

It's been my understanding that the 1/8" shaft "plastic collared" micro-bits are designed for drill presses and break very easily when used in a pin vise. I must confess that I have never used them, though. 

 

Brass comes in different hardnesses, and some alloys are easier to work than others. Have you tried annealing the brass you're working on? Sometimes that helps the bit "bite" into the metal better. Just thoughts, for what they are worth. 

[Roger Pellett]

 

 

Brass Work Hardens.  This means that when deformed at room temperature it gets harder.  This can happen when the drill fails to bite And just sort of massages the surface that you are trying to drill.  So, trying to drill with a dull drill can make it even harder to drill later with a sharp drill.  You might try annealing the piece with the partially drilled hole to see if it makes a difference; heat to dull red and quench in water.

 

Are you clamping the piece that you are drilling in a vise?   You should be applying a reasonable amount of pressure to get the drill to bite and it’s much easier to do this if the work piece is immobilized.

 

I have had zero luck with the 1/8in. shank plastic collar carbide bitts.  Just looking at seems to cause them to shatter.

 

I am not familiar with ceramic bitts.  

 

Roger

[wefalck]

Actually, there are brass-drills out there with a steeper helical angle and differently ground cutting edges ...

 

Another option would be watchmakers' spade drills. These are made for use with reciprocating drills, i.e. Archimedes drills, but also work with electric drills. In the US a source should be Otto Frei (https://www.ofrei.com). Watchmakers, actually used to make them themselves from steel wire.

 

A further option are so-called EUREKA, straight-fluted drills, also from the watchmaking realm. They are stronger than the spade drills, but these days they seem to be expensive and difficult to find.

 

I very rarely use carbide drills for hand-drilling and mainly only in the watchmakers' lathe, where there are very stable conditions with no lateral forces.

 

[Roger Pellett]

My present project requires a lot of holes drilled in brass and I recently needed to restock my supply of smaller sized wire sized drill bits.  After reading previous posts here about jeweler/ watchmaking tools applicable to our craft I decided to investigate spade bits. Google search only resulted in umpteen offers for spade bits in fractional sizes (1/4” and larger) intended for rough carpentry work.  

 

I checked a watchmaking tool source (I believe Otto Freil) and only found something called a Pivot Drill Bit that looked like it might be useful.  This looks like a piece of pointed wire with two sides filed flat.  I might experiment with one of these in the future.  It appears that the watchmaking trade may have been invaded by Carbide too.😠

[wefalck]

Yes, the watchmakers called this inter alia 'pivot drills'. And you are right, carbide drills invaded this trade as well, as it allows to drill watch/clock pivots (i.e. the arbors of wheels etc.) without tempering and then re-hardening them, as was done traditionally.

[BETAQDAVE]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:20 PM, Roger Pellett said:

I am not familiar with ceramic bitts.

While not a drill bit, the Admiral ordered these ceramic bladed box cutters on line for me.  At first I was a little skeptical, but I gave them a try and was pleasantly surprised.  I found them easier to grip than a standard cutter and it really cut through heavy cardboard quite easily.  Not to mention the fact that despite its sharpness, it was much more durable than I expected and safer to handle. 

 

 

So...I wonder if ceramic bits would have similar properties.

[Roger Pellett]

Dave, Thanks for posting those, I particularly like the handles.  With neuropathy I have lost a lot of strength and feeling in my finger tips.  Sometimes it seems that I spend more time picking up tools from the floor than modeling.  Worth giving them a try.

 

Roger

Edited December 30, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Roger Pellett]

I checked EBay last PM and found dozens of offerings for Pivot Drills; not expensive.  Maybe I’ll buy a set.  I have a number of old machinist tools and I really enjoying using whenever I can.

Roger

[N80FTY]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:21 PM, BETAQDAVE said:

Looking for suggestions about best way to drill a hole through a 1.15mm brass wire for a 0.50mm wire eyebolt as shown below.  Also, that 1.15mm wire needs to be widened to about 1.70mm where the hole is.

 

Hi Dave, The picture looks like its flat  wire.

 

But as you stated its round you can do this in 3 ways I've used in the past.

 

1, you can heat the brass and fatten it, Once flat drill out the hole to 0.60mm. Leave a wooden round dowel hand made to 0.60mm in the hole and reheat and reshape the brass back to a round. The wood will singe and shrink slightly leaving you around 0.54mm of a hole.

 

2, Do you have a mill.  If so you want to run it around 6000rpm and peck at the piece you want to drill at. Think woody woodpecker but very very gently. If you can find a spade bit for brass it wood help a lot as it is a perfect V shape, so you will get the point exactly centre to the wire.

 

Crazy idea, and I don't know exactly what you will use them for but you get brass needles, you can then solder them or melt them to the brass your needing used with.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Andrew

[wefalck]

 

[No Idea]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:52 PM, Roger Pellett said:

My present project requires a lot of holes drilled in brass and I recently needed to restock my supply of smaller sized wire sized drill bits.  After reading previous posts here about jeweler/ watchmaking tools applicable to our craft I decided to investigate spade bits. Google search only resulted in umpteen offers for spade bits in fractional sizes (1/4” and larger) intended for rough carpentry work.  

 

I checked a watchmaking tool source (I believe Otto Freil) and only found something called a Pivot Drill Bit that looked like it might be useful.  This looks like a piece of pointed wire with two sides filed flat.  I might experiment with one of these in the future.  It appears that the watchmaking trade may have been invaded by Carbide too.😠

Anything that involves watchmaking then from what I've read on the forum wefalck is the man and I would take his advice.  If I'm drilling into brass I always use cobalt drills.  I don't know the availability of these in the US but here in the UK I can pretty much get any tiny size and they last for ages.

[BETAQDAVE]

    I’ve been trying to use a small torch for both soldering joints and/or annealing metal. This is the unit below that I’ve bought which burns butane.

    Unfortunately, it was a little awkward trying to operate with one hand and maintain a continuous flame.

    First off, a tiny safety lock situated just below the blue trigger button on the right needs to be clicked down before igniting the torch and it was difficult to get at unless you have a long thumbnail. (A small straight edge screwdriver works better for me.)

    Next, the trigger button needs to be pushed in to ignite the flame, but at the same time you also have to depress and push the chrome lever forward on the side to engage the continuous flame feature. By the time the ignition trigger is released to engage that feature the flame goes out!

    I’ve even tried it with two hands, but after a dozen more tries the flame went out every time. To add to the frustration, now it doesn’t want to ignite at all. At first I thought it had run out of butane, but after refilling it and depressing the trigger several times, I can hear and smell the release of gas, but there is no longer any ignition at all.

    At this point it appears that I’ve just wasted about $35 for a defective torch. So I find myself a little leery of ordering another one of the same model.

    Despite my experience, supposedly 1298 customer reviews gave it 4.5 out of 5 rating and read as follows:

Customers like the value, quality and size of the torch. They mention that it's great for the price, an excellent little butane torch and that it makes an awesome cigar lighter. They are also satisfied with size, and ease of use. However, some customers have reported issues with hardness. They say that it doesn't light on the first shot and that the igniter doesn' t work anymore.

    So, apparently I’m one of those 0.5 out of 5 customers. I guess my question would be whether anyone else here has found a similar product that actually works as advertised. Right now I’m considering the RAVS-2001 model # RBT018 which seems to be a nice one, but then I’ve been fooled before.

    I'm trying to use it to remake that anchor davit since my drill still refused to make that hole and annealing the wire at this point would melt the solder that is already holding the flats on the end of the davit.  If all else fails I may just fake the eye bolt and glue or solder a split ring on the bottom side.

Edited January 2 by BETAQDAVE

[usedtosail]

Dave,

 

I also had a torch like that which was hard to light and never stayed lit if I did start. I then found this pencil torch which works a lot better. You have to use a lighter to light it but it only has one switch that you don't have to hold down.

 

[wefalck]

Proxxon offers a very similar model and I have used this without issues for 20+ years. It’s also found in many restaurant kitchens, used to caramelise the sugar on créme brûlee.

 

Edited January 2 by wefalck

[Toolmaker]

Dave, I have that same make and model and it has worked fine for as long as I can remember. Maybe ask for an exchange unit.

I don’t use mine for soldering but I like it for hardening, annealing etc. I also use it with that tip you are showing for heating wood planks or the like needing removal. Works a treat for softening the glue.

[BETAQDAVE]

    Well, I did bite the bullet and ordered the RAVS-2001 torch from Amazon for about $23 with free shipping and it arrived just 4 days later.  I will probably write up a review of it later, but since it actually works as advertised, I’ll be too busy in my shop making a new davit. 👍

[BETAQDAVE]

    Well, I gave up trying to salvage that first attempt to make the davit since trying to anneal the 1.15mm wire at this point would only melt the solder that was already holding the flats on the end. So, after receiving my new functioning torch, I came up with a different method that would work with my limited tools and skill working with metal.

    This is a rough sketch of my idea of how remake the end of the davit. It solved the multiple problems of drilling that hole, fattening the sides of the wire, and adding the flats on the end at the same time.

 

    After annealing some 1.15mm wire and 1.7mm wide 0.075mm thick strip of brass, the wire was bent into shape and the brass strip was folded in half over some 1.15mm wire. The next step was to clamp and solder the strip to the end of the wire as shown being sure to use enough solder to fill the gaps on the top and bottom between them.

    A scrap of 1.15mm maple was slipped into the gap between the sheet for support and maintain the alignment between them and a 0.50mm hole was drilled through for an eye bolt. Then the folded over end portion on the right of the strip shown in green was cut off and filed into its finish shape. While the newly fattened portion of the wire on the left was clamped in my vice, the top and bottom areas of the strip and solder in green were filed off flat to the surface of the wire.

    Now that there was a wider surface to work with, it was clamped in the vice, a heavy needle was used as a center punch, and that pesky 0.50mm hole that created such a problem before was finally drilled for the other eye bolt.

    The final step was to just file away the remaining brass sides shown in green into their rounded shape. Making a pair of eye-bolts from some 0.50mm brass wire, which were cut to the proper length to leave just enough exposed to glue a very short portion of some hollow thin wall brass pipe to serve as the nuts.

    Thanks to all of your suggestions guys. Apparently those drill bits I used actually were sharp, the annealing process really did make quite a difference!  Here is a photo of the assembly as it stands now with its brace added.

Edited January 26 by BETAQDAVE