Robert Hamlin Posted March 22 Share #1 Posted March 22 Hi, I am coming into this from a long career of fiddling with all sorts of things including models of all types. I am now approaching retirement and am in what my brother terms a STABLE condition (Stuff Accumulated Beyond Life Expectancy). I think its fair to say that many modellers have a stash that they do not really own....they are merely its custodian until the whole lot is released into the market again, and acquired by the next generation of optimistic custodians. The local auctioneer is familiar with this syndrome and claims that he rarely sells stuff, he merely rents it out for a few years and then back it comes again. It was at this auction house that the item that is the subject of this posting appeared. This is the large scale (1:50-1:64) Sergal model of the Great Harry/Henry Grace a Dieu. As it dates to 1975 or thereabouts I may well be its third or fourth custodian. The photo shows the state that it is in. The kits itself is complete and undamaged, bar the castings which are entirely missing. I paid about 45USD for it. However, the photo shows that it is in critical condition as the box is compromised with bits falling out of it. Parts of the model were scattered around the auction house floor, behind the cupboard where it was displayed and in the store area and a search recovered all of them, bar those elusive castings and the presumed contents of three mysterious empty tubes (These are pictured - any ideas?). This is both an impressive and rare model (production <100). The photo below of the full scale plans with the one foot ruler show the scale of it. As this is a waterline drawing the hull goes down perhaps another four inches. But it has no future in its current state, and I currently have no time to build it immediately. Such models can be 'reboxed' in cardboard banana boxes and the like, but my experience is that their prospects of survival remain grim. This is a pity, as it's an impressive model of a rare subject. I would think that if the production run of fifty years ago was under a hundred we may be looking at a global population of viable examples of maybe ten or less. Its size is its downfall, the thing is simply too big, heavy (10Kg+) and 'stuffed' for the structural strength of the box that it is in. Thus, wearing my custodian's hat, I intend not to build this model and make a log of it, but to restore it to its as manufactured condition (with a box that is visually identical but much stronger) and log that process here. In this case that means replacing all the boxes, interior packaging and castings with reproductions. As a package design specialist I have the graphic and prototyping facilities to do this and I have already done it many times. The photos below shows a restored Mantua 'Astrolabe' that was literally a pile of cardboard rags and a scatter of parts in several separate locations when acquired for USD10. It has now been restored to 'as sold' condition, and added to the custodial stash. If I do one a year when I retire, I'll be 147 when I'm finished - Do your own math! Rob CDR_Ret, thibaultron, mtaylor and 5 others 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted March 22 Share #2 Posted March 22 (edited) Rob, welcome to MSW. I must say, the niche you've made for yourself in this hobby is a first for myself to watch. Best to you in your endeavors and as far as the empty tubes, my guess is blocks. Glad to have you aboard. You should check out the below build log as it shows what your kit is missing. Edited March 22 by Keith Black Baker, mtaylor and thibaultron 3 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted March 22 Share #3 Posted March 22 Rob, after going through Johnny's build log I think you're missing the majority of the kit. This one may not be worth the custodial battle for space. thibaultron and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoyle Posted March 22 Share #4 Posted March 22 58 minutes ago, Robert Hamlin said: I think its fair to say that many modellers have a stash that they do not really own....they are merely its custodian until the whole lot is released into the market again, and acquired by the next generation of optimistic custodians. Scottish Guy, Baker, mtaylor and 4 others 1 6 Quote Chris Coyle Greer, South Carolina When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk. - Tuco Current builds: Brigantine Phoenix, Hawker Hurricane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandpaPhil Posted March 22 Share #5 Posted March 22 Welcome! Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Building: 1:64 HMS Revenge (Victory Models plans) 1:64 Cat Esther (17th Century Dutch Merchant Ships) On the building slip: 1:72 French Ironclad Magenta (original shipyard plans) On hold: 1:98 Mantua HMS Victory (kit bash), 1:96 Shipyard HMS Mercury Favorite finished builds: 1:60 Sampang Good Fortune (Amati plans), 1:200 Orel Ironclad Solferino, 1:72 Schooner Hannah (Hahn plans), 1:72 Privateer Prince de Neufchatel (Chapelle plans), Model Shipways Sultana, Heller La Reale, Encore USS Olympia Goal: Become better than I was yesterday "The hardest part is deciding to try." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Hamlin Posted March 22 Author Share #6 Posted March 22 Thanks for the comments. I cross referenced this model with Johnnie's very useful (essential in my case) log of the Great Harry before posting this thread, that's why I'm here guys. This one does seem to be all there, bar the castings pack, the poster (Yes [please if you can scan it Johnny) and whatever was in these tubes if the tubes are original - which they may not be. What I have that Johnny does not have is the clear perspex sheet to make the stand out of. The fittings, cut parts, planks/rods and the plans/instructions appear to be all present and correct. The kit has some very minor packing differences to Johnnie's but is otherwise identical. So it is worth restoring. The same can't be said of the Mantua Dutch gunboat that was the next lot in the auction ($5), but I'm going to fix it anyway just to show the World - call me bloody minded... Missing the castings would be fatal for some models (e.g. Royal Caroline). However, in this case the situation is redeemable because: 1) There aren't that many of them, and they are not 'fitted' to the hull. 2) They are not all that big/complex and many can be quite happily (better in some cases) replaced by available generic (Amati etc.) castings. 3) The originals are not of great quality, and some castings (eg the sheer hooks and grapnel) would be better fabricated anyway 4) Nobody knows exactly what was there, so we can indulge in a bit of artistic license (which will be recorded on a dedicated plans sheet with the new set when the kit is complete). In my view the originals are a bit 'rococo' and I suspect they are sourced from another model. I will take detailed shots of everything when I post the build log. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Hamlin Posted March 22 Author Share #7 Posted March 22 My guess for the tubes is the small super spars flagpoles etc. as these don't seem to be in either mine of Johnnie's model. But somebody may know better. present mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted March 22 Share #8 Posted March 22 Glad to see you signing on board with this motley crew!!! Allan Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knocklouder Posted March 22 Share #9 Posted March 22 Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Start so you can Finish !! Finished: The Santa Maria -Amati 1:65, La Pinta- Amati 1:65, La Nina -Amati 1:65 , Hannah Ship in Bottle-Amati 1:300 : The Sea of Galilee Boat-Scott Miller-1:20 Current Build: The Mayflower: Amati On Hold: HMS Pegasus: Amati Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snug Harbor Johnny Posted March 22 Share #10 Posted March 22 4 hours ago, Robert Hamlin said: Thanks for the comments. I cross referenced this model with Johnnie's very useful (essential in my case) log of the Great Harry before posting this thread, that's why I'm here guys. This one does seem to be all there, bar the castings pack, the poster (Yes [please if you can scan it Johnny) and whatever was in these tubes if the tubes are original - which they may not be. What I have that Johnny does not have is the clear perspex sheet to make the stand out of. The fittings, cut parts, planks/rods and the plans/instructions appear to be all present and correct. The kit has some very minor packing differences to Johnnie's but is otherwise identical. So it is worth restoring. G'day mate, (don't know if they say that in New Zealand) ... Ah yes, the GH build in limbo right now. That's because I'm preoccupied with restoring an aprox. 70 yr. old 1:100 model of the Gorch Fock (and going very slowly & carefully with it) - mostly because I needed to learn more about rigging in general, and clipper rigging specifically. There is value in this, even though I'm realizing the difficulties of working in a somewhat smaller scale. Hmmm, and there is also the 1:100 Billings Vasa (circa 1970) also in my queue. Then again, Louie da Fly did a much smaller Great Harry (1:150 scale?) and did an incredible job ... all depends on ones motor skills, patience and determination - as there are many fine examples of exquisite work on MSW. Too bad the castings are missing, as they add a lot to the Sergal GH kit. I take it that all the guns are there, which are more important, and the bits in the blue shrink wrapped castings holder can be re-created in other materials with some fiddling. As noted in what was in the log, the cannons seem to be about 1:88 scale, versus about a 1:65 for the hull. I did not want to build the hull provided because 1.) it IS a bit large and would need very large case, and 2.) the smaller scale cannons peeking out of that big hull just wouldn't look right ... seriously, Henry didn't arm his ship with 'pop guns'. I did a lot of work re-scaling and making a 1:88 set of bulkheads plus intermediate decks. I did not like the way Sergal "interpreted" the fore and stern castles, so I re-designed those. I'll put on my 'to do' list making drawings (on a grid) of the revised1:88 bulkhead set for the GH, so anyone on MSW who wants to do a scratch build can screen capture the photos to be posted and print them. Scanning the big poster just can't be done - its a monster, but still attractive. I did not see any tubes in the kit, but will have another look just to be sure I didn't miss anything. For a mid 70s kit without the benefit of the Mary Rose recovery, it IS impressive - and I think still worth salvage ... you did such a good job on the L'Astrobabe. And indeed, one can still build the Sergal GH kit as provided (the frames are well done and fit OK) to make a REALLY impressive 'big model' - even with the inaccuracies in the castles. But the top structures on the stern can be omitted, and the forecastle modified somewhat to make the result closer to the Anthony Roll, and contemporary artist's interpretations of it - in light of recent archeology on the Mary Rose. The GH was her 'big brother'. mtaylor, Baker and Keith Black 3 Quote Completed builds: Khufu Solar Barge - 1:72 Woody Joe Current project(s): Gorch Fock restoration 1:100, Billing Wasa (bust) - 1:100 Billings, Great Harry (bust) 1:88 ex. Sergal 1:65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snug Harbor Johnny Posted March 22 Share #11 Posted March 22 Aha, we were looking at the "kit review", which did not go into any building. I did start a Build log of 'Busting' the Sergal kit, and couldn't find it again ... until I stumbled on "content you've started" the code for the link I copied to paste below: Now you can see what I started to do with the Sergal kit, and there are more photos of kit contents. Louie was helpful in his comments. Now I have to get the box off the shelf and look at the contents again. Johnny mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Completed builds: Khufu Solar Barge - 1:72 Woody Joe Current project(s): Gorch Fock restoration 1:100, Billing Wasa (bust) - 1:100 Billings, Great Harry (bust) 1:88 ex. Sergal 1:65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted March 22 Share #12 Posted March 22 18 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said: I have to get the box off the shelf and look at the contents again Johnny, Looking at what Rob has in his kit, it doesn't look like near the quantity of wood your kit had. One wonders how much Rob's kit weighs with current contents? Rob said he'd follow up with more photos, that will be helpful. mtaylor 1 Quote Current Builds: Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted March 22 Share #13 Posted March 22 Hello Robert, and a warm welcome to the forum from across the ditch! John mtaylor and Keith Black 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted March 22 Share #14 Posted March 22 Keith Black 1 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted March 23 Share #15 Posted March 23 Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Regards, Patrick Finished : Soleil Royal Heller 1/100 Wasa Billing Boats Bounty Revell 1/110 plastic (semi scratch) Pelican / Golden Hind 1/45 scratch Current build : Mary Rose 1/50 scratch Gallery : Revell Bounty Pelican/Golden hind 1/45 scratch To do : Prins Willem Corel, Le Tonnant Corel, Yacht d'Oro Corel, Thermopylae Sergal Shore leave, non ship models build logs : ADGZ M35 funkwagen 1/72 Einhets Pkw. Kfz.2 and 4 1/72 Autoblinda AB40 1/72 122mm A-19 & 152mm ML-20 & 12.8cm Pak.44 {K8 1/2} 1/72 10.5cm Howitzer 16 on Mark. VI(e) Centurion Mk.1 conversion M29 Weasel 1/72 SAM6 1/72 T26 Finland T26 TN 1/72 Autoprotetto S37 1/72 Opel Blitz buses 1/72 Boxer and MAN trucks 1/72 Hetzer38(t) Starr 1/72 Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Hamlin Posted March 27 Author Share #16 Posted March 27 Hi, Thanks for all the replies. I will start a build log over the weekend and post a full set of unpack photos there and then go to work. mtaylor, Baker and Keith Black 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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