Roar Ege by Scottish Guy - Billing Boats - 1:25

[Scottish Guy]

6 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Micha, this is your first build, not you last. Very few new modelers hit home runs on their first build. I daresay the majority of first builds go into the rubbish bin or are set alight as was my first model when I was very much younger. Take this build for what it is, a learning experience that will make your second build easier and more enjoyable. 

 

Thank you Keith for the kind and honest words. I didn´t expect to do a home run here, it was what it is, a build to learn and an indicator of what I still have to learn. I will even keep this build, despite it is a bad build (in case I can´t somehow fix it) and put it on display in my work room as warning memorial about what I had to learn.

The next build might be better, I hope it will be better because I learnt a lot already and I learnt where my experience is well formed and where I´m missing skills and experience.

 

Micha

[Keith Black]

 The next WILL be better, I promise. 

[Cathead]

2 hours ago, Scottish Guy said:

But what do you mean by using the tunnel vision? I don´t understand this one. Sorry for that.

"Tunnel vision" is an English idiom meaning you focus narrowly on one thing. So the idea here is that you focus only on making this model and don't worry about broader concerns. So it's like your model is in a tunnel and you only look at that, and the tunnel walls block out all the other worries beyond the model. I speak some German but am not sure what the equivalent idiom would be.

[Scottish Guy]

3 minutes ago, Cathead said:

I speak some German but am not sure what the equivalent idiom would be.

 

The GErman equivalent would be "Tunnelblick" and I knew what it means but not explicit in this situation, but now I think I know it. That I shouldn´t think about any future build but only the one I´m building right now. At the moment I don´t think about any new build lol just the Roar Ege.

That´s a lie, I still have in mind about the next model, what kind of ship. But I´m not even sure if the next model would be a plastic or wooden kit. I´m waiting for a 1959 Revell Cutty Sark kit but I would prefer a wooden kit though... so yes,

 

I should focus on the current build, not an anything else at the moment.

 

Micha

[Jaager]

What I mean by tunnel vision in this situation is to focus on building Roar Ege as close to the way that Billing as designed it.  I think that any time and effort spent on trying to augment or add realism would be better spent on a later project.  A time tested, perhaps THE time tested, path into scratch building is to augment a kit with more sophisticated elements.  I think that this particular kit has too much that is too far from real.   It would be like starting in a deep hole.

 

In preparation for composing what is real (or at least my admitted limited knowledge of what is real in Viking practice), I scanned all of the Viking kit build logs.  Which are authentic looking?

At least as far as the hull and the planking - which is pretty much my area of focus.

Realistic seems to be  Marine Models Dragon class solid carved, Dusek Gokstad,  Dusek Knarr, Artesania Latina long boat.  The sheer of all is sort of flat.    Anything but realistic Billing Oseberg, Roar Ege,  and Amati Drakkar.

 

I thought that the impossible planking of Amati: 

and Roar Ege, which is a bit less cartoon -  and pointing out that the planking was freed from Oak trunks/balks using a maul and wedges - I don't see how an individual smith could fabricate a saw.  For your kit, the green box is the plank that this plank would have to be spilled from:

That these extreme - probably for show - stem and stern were large carved timbers - not actual planks: 

And these two links are from logs here:

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/29710-skuldelev-wreck-3-viking-knarr-by-antyronnen-billing-boats-120/   post 4  pic 4

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20332-viking-longship-by-binho-dusek-scale-172-model-based-on-the-11th-century-skuldelev-2-wreck/  post 1  pic 4

 

That the planks had lands in the carved piece: 

Then I realized that the kits with these extreme curves on their planking were never intended to be realistic.  It is a cynical method to avoid having to deal with providing the proper stemson and sternson.   At least for Roar Ege,  I think that the planks are far too wide.   The extreme twist that includes countervailing  directions for the kit planking at each end  is something that I see as being a frustrating combat for a builder.

 

Being totally outside my Universe,  I am not qualified to rule on which short cuts are acceptable in a kit.

 

Oh,  about one of my POB terminology complaints -  on most POB ships, the central spine fills the midline of the whole hull. Usually it reaches up to the lowest deck being included in the model.  For Roar Ege, that part may only be as much as the actual keel.  In this situation naming it "keel" would be correct.   The possible horrible part would be if it is plywood, with end grain showing where it should not be.

 

😉   This is meant to be fun.   Even if we were part of a university naval architecture department/museum and hair splitting stroum und drang  - actual models are no longer in favor.  Those decisions seem to be in the control of individuals who have the equivalent of a life long continuous release LSD depot somewhere in their body.

 

Edited May 6 by Jaager

[Scottish Guy]

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

What I mean by tunnel vision in this situation is to focus on building Roar Ege as close to the way that Billing as designed it.  I think that any time and effort spent on trying to augment or add realism would be better spent on a later project.

 

Unfortunately I have to agree with you here Dean. The kit is started and is far from reality or being authentic. When checking the replicas that have been built you can see that the Billing Boat has nothing really to do with the real Skuldelev ships expect maybe the shape (which ship doesn´t).

 

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

I think that this particular kit has too much that is too far from real.   It would be like starting in a deep hole.

 

Again I have to agree with you. To get this kit to a level of being somewhat authentic you would have to build it from scratch and shouldn´t use the kit in any way (tbh. you should avoid that kit if you want something authentic). However, I started it and I will finish it but like you said, I will focus on getting it finished, will learn by the mistakes I´ve done and will progress with the next project.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jaager said:

Then I realized that the kits with these extreme curves on their planking were never intended to be realistic.  It is a cynical method to avoid having to deal with providing the proper stemson and sternson.   At least for Roar Ege,  I think that the planks are far too wide.   The extreme twist that includes countervailing  directions for the kit planking at each end  is something that I see as being a frustrating combat for a builder.

 

I don´t understand the intend of these kits since they are not even close of being authentic or realistic. I also don´t understand the intend to make the builders life even harder than it should or could be. There are ways to manufature the kits in a more authentic look and way and it might even make the build easier than these pretty tension to glue planks. Also the spine / keel build could have been much easier than the way they do it. I´m a bit looking forward to the 1:20 kit of Billing Boats called "The Skuldelevs" which seems more authentic than the newer version in 1:25. Not sure yet, since I just had a brief look over the kit, nothing to deep yet.

 

Anyway, I´m very grateful that I was allowed to meet you here Dean. You are a really kind and amazing well of knowledge and wisdom and even more grateful I am that you are willing to share all these knowledge to a beginner in wooden kits. I bow before you for this generous behaviour of you.

 

Micha

[Cathead]

34 minutes ago, Scottish Guy said:

I don´t understand the intend of these kits since they are not even close of being authentic or realistic.

These aren't the only ones, I can point to lots of model kits that are laughably, cartoonishly, unrealistic even when it wouldn't be hard to make them at least reasonably accurate. But my guess is that it isn't felt to pay off to put the extra work into making a model good. Same answer for improved materials.

[Scottish Guy]

3 minutes ago, Cathead said:

These aren't the only ones, I can point to lots of model kits that are laughably, cartoonishly, unrealistic even when it wouldn't be hard to make them at least reasonably accurate. But my guess is that it isn't felt to pay off to put the extra work into making a model good. Same answer for improved materials.

 

I get the point, but then they should name them different. But I somehow I can understand the idea of the manufacturer, they just try to save money and also make as much as possible money out of it. But a bit of authencity would be somehow appreciated especially when they intend to be a kit of historic background.

 

Micha

[Keith Black]

 Micha, look at it this way. Kits are for acquiring the skills necessary to eventually being able to scratch build a model. If you buy a kit that has an accurate hull, you can kit bash that kit into bringing about historical accuracy through the historically correct deck furniture, guns, and rigging. Above all is enjoying doing something in your free time as you journey through life. if it ain't makin' you happy, don't continue to try to pushing string uphill, alter the equation in a manner that puts a smile on your face.    

[BrochBoating]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Kits are for acquiring the skills necessary to eventually being able to scratch build a model

 

Not for everyone they're not. 

 

Micha I rapidly came to the conclusion that a great deal of kits are junk which haven't been invested in for years, often decades. Modern kits are entirely different but few and far between.

 

[Cathead]

4 hours ago, Keith Black said:

If you buy a kit that has an accurate hull, you can kit bash that kit into bringing about historical accuracy

That's essentially what I did with my Dusek Viking longship. Used the model as a base and made lots of changes to improve the accuracy and appearance. The kit still saved me a lot of effort over scratchbuilding but the result was much better than the out-of-the-box version.

[mtaylor]

I'll kick in with my $.02 (US) for what it's worth.   Kits are basically either something someone wants to build for their mantel or maybe some they just like doing.   For other, they are a starting point to rework the kit into something realist to the actual ship.  Nothing with either reason.  As far as kits go... for example, the Vasa... or Victory.  Lots of them around from different manufacturers.   Accuracy.... is kind of "meh" for almost all of them but are a few that are really detailed and accurate.   Two of the kit makers (Syren and Vanguard) pride themselves on accuracy.   The key is that you get what you pay for and accuracy is one of the variables along with materials.

[Scottish Guy]

Hi folks, just a wee update. I didn´t give up on the project, it´s just a wee break because of my return to work and the garden (that´s the unfortnate circumstance when having a bungalow with front- and back garden. But I will come back and finish the ship for sure.

 

I don´t give up guys, don´t worry...

 

Micha

[BrochBoating]

It's definitely been a week for being outside up here. Garden work maybe not so much fun!

 

[Scottish Guy]

23 minutes ago, BrochBoating said:

It's definitely been a week for being outside up here. Garden work maybe not so much fun!

 

Hi Simon, can hear you. I hate the work I´m doing (painting the fence). Other garden work is fine but painting a fence? Unfortunately it has to be done because the last three years it hasn´t been done

 

Micha

[GrandpaPhil]

But, just think about how nice the fence will look and all the vegetables will taste after they grow.

 

I planted mine yesterday.

Edited May 14 by GrandpaPhil

[Scottish Guy]

* Chapter Seven *

 

The Fail or How to save the messed up built?

 

Hi all, I´m not sure how to go further with the build. My job took away some of my time in the last few weeks, now I got back some spare time, the build is dried and I tried to put the ribs in place... but that looks really tough since  messed up the planking.

 

 

Unfortunately the planking doesn´t sit correctly so I can´t put the rib in place. I can´t even stick it onto the keel because there is not enough space between the planks and the keel to place the rib.

 

 

 

Also it is visible that the ribs don´t even touch the planks, therefore I couldn´t connect (glue) the planks to the ribs or the opposite way around. I´m wondering if I just should glue the ribs in place even if they don´t touch / connect to the planks? By trying to place rib 6A into place one of the sides just broke off

 

 

 

The space problem exists on both sides of the ship, here to see that it also doesn´t give enough space for rib 8A to be set in place because there is not enough space between the planks and the keel.

 

 

 

In both directions I barely can set the ribs in place, also the keel is at some spots to thick so I can´t slide the ribs in place without breaking them.

 

 

 

A close look at part 6F and 7F, it´s easily to see that part 7F won´t fit in place and you can see the gaps in the planking itself but also the missing space between the keel and the planking.

 

 

 

Here you can see as well the not properly attached and glued planking on the opposite side of the ship. Also gaos between the planks which shouldn´t be. The planking hasn´t been done properly so I messed up the entire build.

 

 

I have to admit that I´m clueless what to do. I´m honest, I ordered another set of the Roar Ege to try another approach of the build or just to check what I could have done different. I might even create another LOG to show a complete different approach for further builds by other builders.

 

But right now I don´t know if the build can be saved or if it is a piece of garbage ready for the bin? I would like to save the build, maybe I can try to de-glue the planking and attach them different, more acurate? I hope you guys can give me some advise, especially if you agree with me to "de-glue" the planking.

 

Micha

[Keith Black]

 Micha, tear it back. Remove the planking if possible and see how that goes. If you can't remove the planking maybe we can come up with something that will help you save the build. 

 

 Off the top of my head, if the planks can't  be removed, you might try building up the inside keel height. you could also remove rib notches and or make new notches. Isn't the keel covered? If so building up the keel hight wouldn't show.

 

 Glad to see you bought another Roar kit. Even if you manage to save Roar 1.0 it's always going to bug you. Building Roar 2.0 will go much better because this time you're aware of what you need to do and where the pitfalls lie.  

 

 Proceed forth with great vigor......and have fun with it. That's what all this is about, finding enjoyment working with your hands. 

[Paul Le Wol]

Hi Micha,if you are good with the overall shape of the hull, perhaps you could make your own ribs by building up 1/8 x 1/16” strips of basswood. If you can make some wedges to fill the gaps you could then build up the ribs with as many layers of wood as you need to make it look the way you want it to. If that makes sense. Lots of work 😀

 

[Keith Black]

6 minutes ago, Paul Le Wol said:

perhaps you could make your own ribs by building up 1/8 x 1/16” strips of basswood.

 My thoughts as well, Paul. 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  This is yet another 'ah-ha' moment, and one that occurred to me previously ... as I have this kit (and the 1:25) Oseberg as well.  The Oseberg kit has more 'bulkheads', as the entire deck gets eventually covered - and nobody can see that underneath the construction is not that of the original, but a technique similar to most plank-on-bulkhead models.  Some of the MDW builders have installed extra cross pieces (false ribs) between the bulkheads to make the deck planking look much better - but still, with no visibility below deck is shouldn't matter what construction techniques are used.  The outside appearance is what counts.  Thats a plus for the Oseberg kit, but doesn't apply to the Roar Ege.

 

  Building the Roar Ege in halves would have the advantage that the keel would not be bent ... BUT  there is the difficulty with fitting the notched ribs into a hull that has already been planked (whether done in halves or as a whole) AND having the notches align exactly with the planks.  The odds are low that this will happen UNLESS the forms planked against also have these notches.  BTW, there are not enough forms !

 

  I've considered this for some time, and now see the 'fit' problem you have at present.  Note that this same problem will apply to the old 'Vikingskibbe' 1:20 kit ribs, and they have to be cut out from flat stock as well.  My thinking was for that kit, that paper templates would have to be custom made one at a time for each location on the pre-planked hull before tack-mounting to better flat stock in order to cut out custom ribbing that would then fit at their respective locations without gapping (much).  I suppose this could be done for the Roar Ege kit - so why have laser cut, notched ribs?  They also would have to be 'faired' at least somewhat to conform to the geometry of the planking as it narrows.

 

  Yes there is a real challenge to the Roar Ege kit, since the building forms as so few and they are not notched.  So what can any prospective builder do (like me)?  Step one - and here I go busting another kit - is to lay the ribs that coincide with a pair of building bulkheads to see IF the respective bulkheads COULD be notched appropriately (that is, the same as the ribs to be later inserted) BEFORE any planking starts.  If not, then new bulkheads that will match the notching on the paired ribs (for later installation) must be made from other stock.

 

  I note that the cross sections provided by Billings are too few, and NOT to scale (the same size) as the model to be made.  These would have to be sized on your printer (not too hard a task) to get proper sized cross sections.  THEN, cross-sections would have to be drawn full size for all the other locations that will get ribbing (so one needs some drafting skills).  Note that the 'notching' of the building bulkheads does NOT end where the ribs will stop - but continues up the side of the hull all the way to the top !  Once the other cross sections have been generated and checked against the laser cut pieces for each location, then additional building bulkheads have to be fabricated with notching that corresponds to the planking positions on the cross sections. ... WHEW !

 

  The building bulkheads have to be assembled at the correct distances, strengthened by notched fore-and-aft pieces - much like many POB models.  The height of the building bulkheads need to be higher, so that there is a straight line across the top to facilitate the re-enforcing notched braces.  It looks  like the kit has a 'curve' in the building frame - perhaps to conserve material ?  Once all the above is done (for both sides, if building in halves, or alternatively - as a single, full, building jig ... the notched bracing (plus a few well placed reinforcing blocks) will yield enough rigidity to the rig that the keel will not bend) ... the jig needs to be 'faired', as any POB kit has to be.  THEN, the lapstrake planking can be done accurately - although the ribs to be installed later will also have to be faired to fit them in 'just right'.

 

  Now comes the comparison with the Woody Joe Khufu barge kit ... (you know I'd throw something like this in eventually).  If you check my completed build of the kit (1:72, but would have been much better in 1:48) they designed an ingenious building jig where the ribs for the planking are incorporated into the building bulkheads ... but still attached in places where they the rest of the bulkhead is 'snapped' away later.  I really appreciated this way to build that kit, and there weren't too many quibbles about certain other aspects of fitting things together.

 So the idea hit me that the "new" Roar Ege building bulkheads (that have been 'busted' into existence) could be carefully cut out to accommodate the notched kit ribs.  Then only the notching on the bulkheads above the ribs would have to be done.  Since there would be nothing connecting the ribs with their respective bulkheads, small pieces of thin stock glued to both sides of the 'mother' bulkhead in a couple of places would keep the ribs in line with the mother - that would be lifted away vertically after the planking is done - leaving behind the ribs (that would be glued to each mating plank as built).

 

  That way, when the building jig is faired, the ribs will also be perfectly faired at the same time (no fussing later).  As long as the builder does NOT glue planks to the building bulkheads above the ribs, the jig will lift away.  As planking proceeds, light cuts or scoring can be done on the planks near the bow and stern to simulate the original - that had solid-carved ends with lands that the shaped hull planks fit into.

  The 1:20 "Vikingskibbe" has the bow and stern built up from pieces - and I suppose that once bonded they simulate a piece carved as a unit.  But this 'stack' is dead-flat for-and-aft, and may show a 'kink' where the hull planks join them.  Duplicating the base end-plank on the 1:20 model to double the thickness would provide enough material to taper the entire piece - so that all the subsequent pieces will have an 'angle' to them.  This might eliminate most of the slight 'kink', and some additional hand shaping/tapering would do the rest.

 

  The Roar Ege does have 'impossible' strakes that provide a smooth transition at the ends (yet a extra piece butted to the garboard strake needs to be added, then tapered to "nothing", so there is no 'gap' when the next strake goes on) ... but, as mentioned above, scribing a 'false' staggered butt join at bow and stern will simulate solid carved ends.

 

  Please accept my apology for an over-long response (I rarely can say anything in 25 words or less), but aside from outlining techniques that might actually give a good result for the subject kit - I would not expect any beginning builder to think of these alternatives ahead of time ... only in retrospect.  The extra time to have engineered a better building jig, along with better, full-size cross-sections and MUCH better instructions would have likely raised the price of the kit by 50%.  I think it would have been worth it.

 

  Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the show?

[Keith Black]

Johnny, thanks for taking the time. Good on ya.  

[Scottish Guy]

13 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Micha, tear it back. Remove the planking if possible and see how that goes. If you can't remove the planking maybe we can come up with something that will help you save the build. 

 

Hi Keith, thank you for your answer. I was thinking the same but can´t think of a save and proper way to remove the planks of the ship again. I´m scared they will break since they are pretty flimsy. Also I´m not sure if they not will break on the stem / stern since there is the most glue. I used CA (super glue) for the planking.

 

 

13 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Glad to see you bought another Roar kit. Even if you manage to save Roar 1.0 it's always going to bug you. Building Roar 2.0 will go much better because this time you're aware of what you need to do and where the pitfalls lie.  

 

Yeah, it´s more like an experiement, so I can maybe build them beside each other, giving others the opportunity to learn by my mistakes and finding the way to do it a save and acurate way.

 

 

13 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Proceed forth with great vigor......and have fun with it. That's what all this is about, finding enjoyment working with your hands. 

 

I mentioned it once before, I like a good challenge and that is a challenge but I also want to have ONE Roar Ege on my shelf lol so yes, I wish I could finish one at least. It always will be fun

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

11 hours ago, Paul Le Wol said:

Hi Micha,if you are good with the overall shape of the hull, perhaps you could make your own ribs by building up 1/8 x 1/16” strips of basswood. If you can make some wedges to fill the gaps you could then build up the ribs with as many layers of wood as you need to make it look the way you want it to. If that makes sense. Lots of work 😀

 

Hi Paul, not sure if I completely understand your approach but somehow it makes sense. The longer I think about it, it starts making sense just not sure how to perform the action.

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

8 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  This is yet another 'ah-ha' moment, and one that occurred to me previously ... as I have this kit (and the 1:25) Oseberg as well.  The Oseberg kit has more 'bulkheads', as the entire deck gets eventually covered - and nobody can see that underneath the construction is not that of the original, but a technique similar to most plank-on-bulkhead models.  Some of the MDW builders have installed extra cross pieces (false ribs) between the bulkheads to make the deck planking look much better - but still, with no visibility below deck is shouldn't matter what construction techniques are used.  The outside appearance is what counts.  Thats a plus for the Oseberg kit, but doesn't apply to the Roar Ege.

 

Hi Johnny, thank you for your very detailed and acurate answer . No need for an apology. I agree, the Roar Ege is a bit different since the keel and ribs are not covered like with the Oseberg. SO everything is visible on the Roar Ege. An interesting approach with the additional ribs.

 

 

8 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Building the Roar Ege in halves would have the advantage that the keel would not be bent ... BUT  there is the difficulty with fitting the notched ribs into a hull that has already been planked (whether done in halves or as a whole) AND having the notches align exactly with the planks.  The odds are low that this will happen UNLESS the forms planked against also have these notches.  BTW, there are not enough forms !

 

I agree that the (when reading the instructions more than once and taking time to let this kauderwelsh sink in) half build way might be good. On the other hand I think the full build, which I did acciendtially is much easier and when performed acurate and with more calmness much more efficient. Also I´m thinking by using a proper jig, I ordered the Hobbyzone Professional Jig, so the keel and frame can be kept in a straight line so there should be no warping or bending of the keel.

 

Also I think maybe a better approach would be to use not only the "bulkheads" which will be removed anyway, but also to glue in the ribs to give the planks later on a proper shape. The advantage would be that the ribs have the notches where I can place the planks properly but the "bulkheads" don´t have any notches. I also could nail the planks into the ribs to keep them in place and I could do both sides the same time, so the build will be more equal and "mirrored" if that makes sense.

 

Micha