Do I need thes books, or just want them?

[Frank Burroughs]

Before I buy, can some kind soul weigh in on whether these books would help significantly. 

 

1)   Ship Models from the Age of Sail: Building and Enhancing Commercial Kits Hardcover – April 15, 2022 by Kerry Jang

2)  Ship Modeling Simplified: Tips and Techniques for Model construction from Kits by Frank Mastini

3) A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building by Richard, M Van Gaasbeek

 

Or, is all I need is the guild and the USB stick The NJR vols 1 - 60 I bought!

 

Please suggest any others.

 

models to build I have:

  building now:

     Revell CSS Alabama 1961 1/96 scale

     Model Shipways Shipwright 3 Kit Combo Series

 

  gathering dust:

    Revell USS Constitution Old Ironside Ship 1:96 Scale 

   Soliel Royal  Aurora Heller no. 6550 1/100 scale

 

  planning on buying:

    Revell Cutty Sark 1/96 scale

[Scottish Guy]

Can´t tell much about N^o 1 and for N^o 3 but I have N^o 2 and I can tell, it hasn´t been much help to me yet. Some of the things I knew already and some are not useful at all to me. But I have to say that the 1^st one and the 3^rd one sound interesting, especially N^o 3 sounds really interesting since I previous only worked with plastic models. Gaining knowledge is always a good thing to improve your own skills and models, that`s my humble opinion about it.

 

Unfortunately I can´t say anything about the NRG stick since I`m a member just for a short time myself and don´t have anythign yet from this material. But I can say that every additional source of knowledge, especially when interested in certain eras of shipbuilding (the originals) since procedures, designs and even some methods of building and equipment changed over the centuries.

You just can´t compare a yacht from the 19^th century with a modern composite or aluminum sail yacht, just not by the materials used. Also shapes of hulls improved over the centuries so yes, additional sources of knowledge and methods might be always good and often neccessary, when you want to be accurate and authentic about your scale model.

 

Just my 2c to this topic...

 

Micha

[druxey]

What type of ship and era are you most interested in, Frank? Also, kit, semi-scratch or fully scratch built? That would help define the question.

[VTHokiEE]

I can only give you my experience with the second book. I bought Ship Modeling Simplified: Tips and Techniques for Model construction from Kits by Frank Mastini when I was getting my first kit because it seemed to be highly recommended. The book wasn’t expensive but I didn’t really use it very much and I only read about a 3rd of it.

 

This forum simply provided more knowledge in a more searchable form than I found in the book. The forum has great examples of so many components of construction in build logs and many general questions answered in the other forum areas that I passed the book along to make room for others in my library. 

Edited April 14 by VTHokiEE

[uss frolick]

You need them. Now.

 

 

[Frank Burroughs]

I can wait.  Just spent a hundred dollars on wood and tools to make mast and spars.

Looking further into "Ship Models from the Age of Sail: Building and Enhancing Commercial Kits".

 

I do believe rummaging around in the NJR and asking too many questions will suffice for awhile 

[mtaylor]

The one book I use for starting any research has been Historic Ship Models by zu Mondfeld.    Usually it's just the starting point for a trip down a rabbit hold and ending up on my other books or on a deep web search.  

[GrandpaPhil]

I agree with @mtaylor.  I am on my third or fourth copy of Zu Mondfeld’s book.  It sits on my model table and is my quick go to (and my original starting point nearly 30 years ago if I must be honest).  Of my entire library, it gets used the most.

Edited April 14 by GrandpaPhil

[Jaager]

I don't think that you really want any of the three of them.

It is difficult for any single book to cover more than a specific era  for model construction methods.   Anything broad tends to be superficial.

 

The two volumes of the Ship Modeler's Shop notes are gems taken from the NRJ.

The basic skills are covered in logs or technical forums here - sometimes a chore to find -  but also to see variations on the theme.  There ain't no single "answer to it".

 

To stay out of a fugue state - it helps to specialize.  Once you specialize, your books should be reprints of contemporary books or books that show the actual practice.

Find out what was actually done and try as best you can to duplicate it at model scale.

 

Gaasbeek comes from a very special time.  WWI era.  There is also Estep and Desmond  and  then Charles Davis' misleading application of what was done for WWI as being relevant to any time before then.   For 20th century large wooden vessels - they are OK sources.   Except for a failed and panic based effort to overcome the U boat sinking of bulk carriers by using wooden hulls,  most large wooden vessels from then on were fantasy based replicas famous historical vessels.   These methods are much more reflective of iron and steel engineered hulls than the construction methods from the Age of Sail. 

Edited April 15 by Jaager

[Frank Burroughs]

Found Historic Ship Models by zu Mondfeld on Scribd.  Saved it, thanks.  Scribd is well worth the yearly fee.

 

Ship Modeler's Shop notes will have to wait until more money comes my way.

 

I like the era where sail passes to steam power.  Right now plastic models I like and Model Shipways Shipwright 3 Kit Combo Series are a start.  When my skills are up, a scratch build of a Three island Tramp Steamer.  Who knows what Ebay will bring in the years to come

[GrandpaPhil]

If you like transition era vessels, I strongly recommend Orel’s kits.

 

They have a very nice line of late 19th century ships.

[Frank Burroughs]

Orel’s kits looks like a few I would like to build.  The idea of paper models is new to me.

[allanyed]

9 hours ago, Jaager said:

It is difficult for any single book to cover more than a specific era  for model construction methods.   Anything broad tends to be superficial.

Totally agree with you Dean.

My library is in the neighborhood of 75 books, but there are fewer than ten that get used on a continual basis.  Basics include Lees for rigging, Lavery and Goodwin for details, TFFM for a lot of "how to" information, and Scantlings of the Royal Navy for dimensional information on virtually every part of every size ship in the RN from 1719-into the early 19th century.  Schooners bring out Chapelle.  The Articles Database here at MSW has a ton of information as well.

 

Allan

Edited April 15 by allanyed

[GrandpaPhil]

12 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Orel’s kits looks like a few I would like to build.  The idea of paper models is new to me.

They are like the old potato chip ad for me.

 

You can’t just buy one.

 

I have quite a few in my stash now and will probably buy more in the near future.

Edited April 15 by GrandpaPhil

[Frank Burroughs]

They must be made out of thick cardboard?  I'll YouTube a build.

 

[Frank Burroughs]

"TFFM for a lot of "how to" information"

TFFM?

[GrandpaPhil]

I use normal cereal or snack cake boxes for most of them.  
 

I used a thin corrugated cardboard box for the framing of my Solferino.

[ccoyle]

10 minutes ago, Frank Burroughs said:

TFFM?

 

"The Fully Framed Model" is a series of books that detail how to build an admiralty-style model. They are excellent books and well-worth the money if that is the type of model you intend to build someday. I say "someday" because fully-framed, admiralty-style models are right near the pinnacle of our art, and one should probably have some prior experience under one's belt before diving in.

 

Card models, if that is something that strikes your fancy, are much easier and cheaper to get into, but they're not everyone's cup of tea. They can be scratch built or from kits, and many kits have additional after-market add-ons available, such as laser cut frames and details. We have a card modeling tutorial available here in the forum, and if you search for "card" with our search engine, you will find many finished examples. As Phil has stated,the Ukrainian publishing house of Orel has many pre-Dreadnought types in their inventory.

 

Cheers!

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

TFFM for a lot of "how to" information"

Chris is of course correct that TFFM is based initially on building a fully framed model, but the volumes have a lot of application for any ship model in the days of sail.  Such things as proper planking in volume I, making various realistic small parts such as a ship's wheel or chain pump housing and much much more in volume II and rigging in Volume IV.    In the end no one book will answer address every ship, era or nationality. 

Allan

Edited April 15 by allanyed

[mtaylor]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

  In the end no one book will answer address every ship, era or nationality. 

Allan

Nor will one publisher have all the answers either.  Have a look at ANCRE's offerings for French ships.    So, we have to be open to our choices and the research  for them.   Start "small" and add books when you need them (much like the gospel on tools....

[Frank Burroughs]

The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich looks very good

[Scottish Guy]

5 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich looks very good

 

Unfortunately "currently not available" here in the UK but the expected price of GBP 99 I think is also a bit... overpriced. I always thought there is a pricebinding to books, at least in Europe it should be...

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Frank Burroughs said:

The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich looks very good

I believe that The Art of Shipmodeling has reached that pinnacle of universal reference work that it is simply referred to by its author's last name: "Frolich." I see where, inexplicably, Amazon has it for sale new for $70.00. That's a steal at less than half the price most of us paid over the last 22 years since it was first published. I'd grab a copy in a hot minute if I were you. There's a wealth of information in it. 

 

But beware! Do not confuse The Art of Shipmodeling by Bernard Frolich with The Art of Ship Modeling by Richard Mansir, which is an entirely different book. It's "Frolich" that you want to make sure you are buying.

 

If it's classic books on modeling technique and "tricks of the trade," I'd strongly recommend:

 

 The Techniques of Ship Modeling, by the late Gerald Wingrove: The Techniques of Ship Modelling by Wingrove, Gerald A. Hardback Book The Fast 9780852423660 | eBay There are always a few used copies on eBay (both hardcover and quality paperback) so shop for the lowest price, usually less than ten bucks used. 

 

Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Volumes 1 and 2 from the NRG. There are always used copies of these on eBay and Amazon. New copies are available from the NRG store through this forum. As for Volume 1, I'd advise you get a newer printing with the spiral binding which permits the books to be laid flat on a workbench or tabletop when working from them. The original binding was a glued spine paperback and the glue dried out and the pages come loose. My copy of Volume 1 is held together with a bulldog clip. I should bring it to Staples or one of those places and have them spiral bind it for me.

 

William Frederick's (1874) Scale Journey: A Scratchbuilder's Evolutionary Development, by Antonio Mendez C. This book was "remaindered" on eBay a couple of years ago for seven bucks a copy and I grabbed one. It's focus is radio controlled sailing scale models, but its content is a survey of technique, and it is full of subjects not found elsewhere, especially regarding tools and shop practices. It would take you years of following build logs on MSW to pick up but a fraction of the how-to-do-its in this book. Unfortunately, it appears to have become something of a collectable at this point and Amazon is now selling them for $47.00. If you watch out for a copy on eBay, you may get lucky and snag one for closer to the price when they were selling off the remainders new. William Frederick's (1874) Scale Journey: A Scratchbuilder's Evolutionary Development: mendez, antonio: 9780975577202: Amazon.com: Books  I checked eBay just now and see where they have three between $50.00 and $169.00! (Let this be a lesson to modeling library builders everywhere!) 

 

Plank-On-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging, Vol. 1: Scale Hull Construction and Plank-On-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging, Vol. 2: Scale Hull Construction by Harold A. Underhill. This two-volume set is a classic and there are lots of used copies on eBay for surprisingly reasonable prices. (Still in print, new copies run around $90 per volume!) plank on frame models underhill for sale | eBay

 

Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier by Harold Underhill. This is what I'd call the Bible of the last days of commercial sail. If you are interested in clippers and windjammers, as well as general rigging practice at the highest level of its evolution, this book is it. Used copies are available very reasonably priced on eBay.  Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier for sale | eBay

 

These titles are recommended for their treatment of general modeling practices and techniques more than for specific research data on specific types and periods. When your interest becomes focused on a particular type of vessel in a particular period, there are specific reference works that become "must haves," but they tend to be expensive (some running more than a hundred dollars and up) and sometimes very difficult to find. If you continue to pursue your interest in ship modeling, you will find yourself acquiring a library of some value and doing that easily becomes a related hobby in and of itself.

 

Edited April 16 by Bob Cleek

[Scottish Guy]

12 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier by Harold Underhill. This is what I'd call the Bible of the last days of commercial sail. If you are interested in clippers and windjammers, as well as general rigging practice at the highest level of its evolution, this book is it. Used copies are available very reasonably priced on eBay.  Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier for sale | eBay

 

Unfortunately no version of the book available in the UK. All I found are in the USA and the postage is ridiculous high, some are more than the book itself, so useless. I don´t pay USD 37.00 and then another USD 50.00 to get it to the UK and when the seller forgets about tax papers and custom papers I pay another load on top of that (had this experience with something from Germany where I paid almost three times the price of the item itself)

 

 

15 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I believe that The Art of Shipmodeling has reached that pinnacle of universal reference work that it is simply referred to by its author's last name: "Frolich." I see where, inexplicably, Amazon has it for sale new for $70.00. That's a steal at less than half the price most of us paid over the last 22 years since it was first published. I'd grab a copy in a hot minute if I were you. There's a wealth of information in it. 

 

No version available here in the UK, not on Amazon nor on eBay

[Scottish Guy]

Hi @Bob Cleek, you see me a bit confused. I only can see the quote of my own posting but not your comment?

 

[Scottish Guy]

28 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

But beware! Do not confuse The Art of Shipmodeling by Bernard Frolich with The Art of Ship Modeling by Richard Mansir, which is an entirely different book. It's "Frolich" that you want to make sure you are buying.

 

I know of the difference, unfortunately the search in the UK Amazon doesn´t bring up any results for the name of the author "Bernard Frohlich" nor under the name "Bernard Fröhlich". When I put in the name of the book I only get the result that it "currently is unavailable".

 

Edited April 16 by Scottish Guy

[Bob Cleek]

44 minutes ago, Scottish Guy said:

 

Unfortunately "currently not available" here in the UK but the expected price of GBP 99 I think is also a bit... overpriced. I always thought there is a pricebinding to books, at least in Europe it should be...

It was an expensive book when first published and seems to have remained so. Apparently, it was until rather recently only available directly from the publisher, Ancre, in Nice, France. The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich - Ancre There are now new and used copies available on U.S. Amazon (The Art of Ship modeling: Bernard Frolich: 9782903179847: Amazon.com: Books) and U.S. eBay: (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=The+Art+of+Shipmodeling+by+Bernard+Frolich&_sacat=0&_odkw=The+Art+of+Shipmodeling&_osacat=0)

 

Believe me, we feel your pain over here, as well. We have to pay the same exorbitant shipping costs from the U.K. to the U.S. that you apparently must in the opposite direction. I believe this increase in shipping costs was attributable to the fact that all shippers seem now to be sending everything air freight. Time was, you could order something from Europe and it might take three or four weeks to get here, but the shipping didn't break the bank unless you wanted to opt for air freight. Now it's all air freight whether you need it or not.  On top of that, you may also be paying the price for "Brexit," but I'm not really all that familiar with that issue, of course. Perhaps you might consider having a friend who is making a run to the South of France "smuggle" a copy back for you from Ancre.  It's really a valuable resource.

Edited April 16 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

9 minutes ago, Scottish Guy said:

 

I know of the difference, unfortunately the search in the UK Amazon doesn´t bring up any results for the name of the author "Bernard Frohlich" nor under the name "Bernard Fröhlich". When I put in the name of the book I only get the result that it "currently is unavailable".

 

Sorry for the confusion. I was in the middle of an edit, so you caught only the beginning of the post.

 

Check out the link I provided above to the U.S. Amazon and eBay websites and you'll see they are both offering new and used copies. Beyond that, I expect the cost of shipping is prohibitive. We keep hearing that in recent times on all sorts of modeling essentials. The cost of an item on the opposite side of the Pond seems to almost double when the shipping is added. We have U.K. books listed on U.S. eBay, so I'm not sure why it doesn't work the same the other way around. Is it possible the "not available" status is a result of some sort of E.U. customs issue?

[Scottish Guy]

5 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I believe this increase in shipping costs was attributable to the fact that all shippers seem now to be sending everything air freight. Time was, you could order something from Europe and it might take three or four weeks to get here, but the shipping didn't break the bank unless you wanted to opt for air freight. Now it's all air freight whether you need it or not.

 

I know and I like to remember the old times (not only because of shipping costs - a lot of things have been more nice in the past but that is another topic) but I agree, since everything is via air freight the costs increased dramatically.

 

6 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

On top of that, you may also be paying the price for "Brexit," but I'm not really all that familiar with that issue, of course.

 

I agree again, another bad thing that happened is Brexit which makes for us now the prices for items from Europe as well expensive since we are no longer part of the EU. On top there is the tax and customs fees.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Perhaps you might consider having a friend who is making a run to the South of France "smuggle" a copy back for you from Ancre.  It's really a valuable resource.

 

That might be indeed a possibility I have to sound out since a German friend of mine is visiting me in July, he has to travel via France, but maybe the book is even available in Germany and he could just bring it over

 

[Frank Burroughs]

Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier by Harold Underhill  have.

 

Scale Journey: A Scratchbuilder's Evolutionary Development, by Antonio Mendez on wish list Triftbooks

Plank-On-Frame Models and Scale Masting and Rigging, Vol. 1 on wish list Triftbooks

 

The Techniques of Ship Modeling by Gerald Wingrove bought $10.25 (including shipping) on Thriftbooks

The Art of Ship modeling by Bernard Frolich bought $67.74 (including shipping) on Amazon

Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Volumes 1 and 2 from the NRG $81.35 (including shipping)

 

I've been sleeping on Ship Modeler's Shop Notes, Volumes 1 and 2.  Your recommendation put me over.  The other two books were a good deal.  Masting and Rigging: The Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier i am struggling through.  Lots to take in at bedtime.

 

Never met a hobby book I did not need, right?