Herzogin Cecilie 1902 by Jim Lad - Four Masted Barque

[BANYAN]

You're doing a grand job on this restoration John, looking good.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited August 21 by BANYAN

[Jim Lad]

Ian, Keith and Patrick - thanks for your positive comments. Hopefully I can keep her going to a good standard to finish the model for the National Collection.

 

Karel - thank you for your comments which you have given to help with the ongoing restoration and completion.  We are trying to complete the model as she looked when she left Port Lincoln in South Australia on her final voyage and have thus been careful to use only photographic evidence that we can date from this period. Photographs and cinema footage taken shortly after the ship ran aground are therefore very valuable to us.  We have found nothing to indicate that the anchors fitted at the time were of the Trotman pattern, and photos of the wreck indicate that the patent anchor was not on board at the time of the wreck, and therefore not on the ship when she left Port Lincoln. A spare fluked anchor can be seen secured to the after end of the forecastle deck in the photo you attached.  The 'Duchess' indeed had solid bulwark sections port and starboard at the forward end of the poop and across the fore end of the poop as far as the well deck ladders - the centre section was of the fore end railing was of steel pipe railing. Yes, we realise that the railing stanchions are out of scale, but as these were fitted by a previous builder, we have decided to leave them on the model for the sake of the model's historic integrity.  The top railing, however, is removed to be replaced by a wooden capping rail in the interests of historical accuracy.

 

Once again, thank you for your interest in this project.

 

John

[Zooropa]

If you go for that period, watch out that the railing of the break of poop has been altered after boiler explosion in belfast 1935, here, a glimpse of her new railings: 

I have no proof of evidence of Herzogin Cecilie was fitted with trotman anchors, but I have a heap of photo's of her final voyage. Among these photo is a trotman anchor visible but I can't garantuee that it was after 1935.

 

Karel

[Jim Lad]

Karel,

 

Thank you very much for that image. This ship never ceases to amaze me with the range of strange bits and pieces that were fitted. I wouldn't have believed that a railing like that would be fitted to a ship in the mid 1930's if I hadn't seen the image. It looks like Gustaf was looking for the cheapest way to repair the ship and found some old railing in his shipyard.

 

You obviously have access to an archive of photos that I've never seen before. You may be able to help me with some other fittings that I'm still trying to work out and can't find details.  What I still need are:

details of the pipes running to the water tanks on the starboard side of the donkey boiler house

information concerning a lightly built yard on the spanker topmast - it shows in Villier's photos from 1927 and was still there when the ship was wrecked. I suspect that it may have been fitted as a signal yard - that would be unusual, but I can't think of any other practical use at the moment.

photos of the hot bulb engine powered winch at No. 4 hatch. I have photos of a similar hot bulb winch fitted on the 'Pommern', but would love to have details of the actual winch fitted on the 'Duchess'

photos of the gangway (accommodation ladder) at the ship's side. She must have had one, and a gangway davit is clearly visible in many photos, but I'd love to see an actual image of it

clear photos of the underside of the lower yards as I suspect that the sheet lead block were individual single sheave blocks and not the more usual three sided spectacle blocks.

 

I know that sound a lot, but if you were able to assist us with any of this, it would be extremely helpful.

 

John

[BANYAN]

5 hours ago, Zooropa said:

I have no proof of evidence of Herzogin Cecilie was fitted with trotman anchors,

Hi Karel and John.

 

if you look at your earlier photo (post #59 second photo) commenting on the railing sizes etc. you can see the foot (well the flukes at least) of an anchor on deck.  To me, those flukes look like those of a Trotman anchor (or possibly of a Porter anchor which was the forerunner to the Trotman).  The crop of that photo (attached) certainly has the hallmarks of the early Trotman type anchor.

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited August 21 by BANYAN

[Jim Lad]

Pat, I think that's all part of the same anchor - the one that wasn't on the forecastle when she was wrecked. If you look at Karel's photo you can see another anchor behind the two crew members and extending off the starboard - that's the one that was on board when she struck.

 

John

[Kuparu]

Just in case it has not been mentioned already, some of the controversy over anchors and other fittings might be resolved by referring to "The Tall Ships Pass" by WLA Derby (1937).  Plenty of versions available through the usual on-line traders.  The second half of the book is devoted to Herzogin Cecilie and her loss and has both plans and many photos.  IMHO it is probably the best of the contemporary publications on that specific subject. 

[Zooropa]

Did you knew that the railing as fitted on Herzogin Cecilie in 1935 does still exist; it's fitted in front of a building in Salcombe, Building is called Fairhaven on Sandhills Road. North Sands, Salcombe. it has been altered to fit on the porch. I was there last summer and measured it up for my drawings. I also met Malcolm Darch there. Wonderful, he's also buidling a model of Herzogin Cecilie at the moment.

[Zooropa]

17 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Karel,

 

Thank you very much for that image. This ship never ceases to amaze me with the range of strange bits and pieces that were fitted. I wouldn't have believed that a railing like that would be fitted to a ship in the mid 1930's if I hadn't seen the image. It looks like Gustaf was looking for the cheapest way to repair the ship and found some old railing in his shipyard.

 

You obviously have access to an archive of photos that I've never seen before. You may be able to help me with some other fittings that I'm still trying to work out and can't find details.  What I still need are:

details of the pipes running to the water tanks on the starboard side of the donkey boiler house

information concerning a lightly built yard on the spanker topmast - it shows in Villier's photos from 1927 and was still there when the ship was wrecked. I suspect that it may have been fitted as a signal yard - that would be unusual, but I can't think of any other practical use at the moment.

photos of the hot bulb engine powered winch at No. 4 hatch. I have photos of a similar hot bulb winch fitted on the 'Pommern', but would love to have details of the actual winch fitted on the 'Duchess'

photos of the gangway (accommodation ladder) at the ship's side. She must have had one, and a gangway davit is clearly visible in many photos, but I'd love to see an actual image of it

clear photos of the underside of the lower yards as I suspect that the sheet lead block were individual single sheave blocks and not the more usual three sided spectacle blocks.

 

I know that sound a lot, but if you were able to assist us with any of this, it would be extremely helpful.

 

John

Most of your requests I have photo's of it. Except that of a ladder to acces the ship, I have no any pictures of that. I'll deal with them by subject.

 

[Zooropa]

Details of pipe running on the side of the boiler house:

 

Dont forgot the pipes for the salt water pipe line!

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[Clark]

I was very pleased to see Duchess Cecilie again. Four weeks ago, I had just been to the Maritime Museum in Mariehamn. It's well worth a visit, as the history of Gustav Erikson and Duchess Cecilie is presented there in detail. You can also see the last four-masted barque in its original condition, the Pommern (formerly Mneme). It is well worth a visit, especially as the Alands themselves are well worth a visit.   Enclosed is a photo of the bell of the Cecilie and a photo of the Pommern. 

[Zooropa]

I got some (vague) photo's of the hot bulb engine, the one of Pommern is the exact same type engine. so you can safely use the photo of the engine. 

[Zooropa]

[Zooropa]

1 hour ago, Clark said:

I was very pleased to see Duchess Cecilie again. Four weeks ago, I had just been to the Maritime Museum in Mariehamn. It's well worth a visit, as the history of Gustav Erikson and Duchess Cecilie is presented there in detail. You can also see the last four-masted barque in its original condition, the Pommern (formerly Mneme). It is well worth a visit, especially as the Alands themselves are well worth a visit.   Enclosed is a photo of the bell of the Cecilie and a photo of the Pommern.

 

 

I´ve heard a funny story regading this bell: 

When the germans had to sell Herzogin Cecilie as war repairments, they decided to strip Herzogin Cecilie of all her useful goods, They got caught and had to return all the items, except the ship bells. Germans was able to hide the bells. So when Gustav Erikssons bought Herzogin Cecilie, She was fitted without bells, and ship bells plays a major role in watches, so Gustav bought replacements. On Herzogin Cecilie, her bells had no text.

After this bell was transferred to Mariehamn, the conservators decided to paint "Herzogin Cecilie" on the bell.

I've seen (and heard) the original German bell.

[Zooropa]

Those "lightly built yards on spanker mast" was actually fitted for the wireless. Herzogin Cecilie was fitted with wireless around 1909. (also the reason why she had a motor house under the boat platform) In the book by villiers is a very good photo of that yard.

 

museovirasto.66200FF341F64442A7E4A2A762C50DBA-0-original.tifmuseovirasto.66200FF341F64442A7E4A2A762C50DBA-0-original.tif

[Jim Lad]

It's been a while since the last update, so here's the latest on the 'Duchess'.

 

In this first image there hasn't been a explosion on the forecastle, rather I've finally decided I can't live with the forecastle railing in the wrong position, so the after ends of the railings have been ripped out of the waterways in preparation for fixing inboard of the sidelights.

 

Here are the railings in their new position - still a bit of cleaning up to do.

 

This is the current state of the model. At least she's starting to look like a sailing ship (even if I do get questions asking whether she was steam ore diesel powered)

 

Before too much more rigging takes place, I'll need to go back along the deck correcting more errors that have become apparent and finishing off bits and pieces.

 

John

[Rick310]

Looking very nice!!

Rick

[FlyingFish]

Just enjoyed catching up with your restoration John. Great work!

[Dr PR]

John,

 

Those are awfully skinny smoke pipes! But at least there are four of them. But why are they broken up into two or three sections like that?

Edited September 5 by Dr PR

[Jim Lad]

The multiple sections helps the boiler fires to draw better. 😀

 

John

[Zooropa]

Herzogin Cecilie always had masts in three parts, like all old type windjammers. Kruzenshtern and Padua both have spike masts, mast and topmast in one piece.

[Jim Lad]

The 'Duchess' continues to move ahead, although it's difficult to see just what has been done as I'm completing deck details and correcting small items along the decks at the moment.

 

In the first image below you can see that the ladders from the poop have had their handrails corrected and they have been moved outboard to their correct positions, the fittings on the top of the donkey boiler house and the water tanks have been corrected and the gangway door has been cut. There is now a water pipe running along the port side and down the front of the poop bulkhead and the first section of the new wooden cap railing has been fitted.

 

It the wider view, the loosely coiled lines hanging over the side are the whips for two of the hoisting yard halliards, the winch drum ends have been painted and cargo runners fitted and, almost impossible to see, the winches have been turned around so that they are now facing in the correct direction.

 

There is a lot more small detail like this still to do. Once the new poop railing is installed I will need to fix the donkey boiler house and water tanks and finally work out the run of pipes between them and then get on with the cap railing.

 

John

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Looks great Jim.  So the Duchess didn't have Jarvis brace winches?

[Keith Black]

 Jim, your restoration work is a huge improvement and a  very commendable effort.  Is it possible to take a overhead photo of the Donkey engine showing details? TYIA

[Jim Lad]

Ian - no brace winches or other labour saving devices. As originally built she carried 100 cadets, so they weren't needed, but she must have been a heavy ship to work with the small crews that manned her in the wheat trade, especially as her yards were all steel!

 

Keith - I can get you an overhead view of the boiler house when I'm in next Monday, but there's no boiler in there!

 

John

 

 

[rwiederrich]

Goodness John,  I'm just now getting a good look at your restoration log.  Very fine work and refurbishment indeed.  What a task for sure.  As usual,......research, research, research.

Very impressive endeavor..

 

Rob

[Jim Lad]

Thanks for that, Rob. Every time I find something else to be done on the model I feel like Doctor Watson being chided by Sherlock Holmes - "You look, but you don't see".

 

John