Mara thread - what colors do you use for fabricating ropes

[Sterling59]

Newby question...!!

 

I'm looking forward to having a go at making scale ropes with my incoming rope walk....

I had a look at the available colors for Mara thread - I thought there may be a few similar but different hues but the range is expansive!

What colors (numbers) do you use for standing and running rigging? 

Thanks!

 

Dale

[Y.T.]

 

 

[Sterling59]

Thank you Sirius, very helpful!

[SiriusVoyager]

5 hours ago, Sterling59 said:

Thank you Sirius, very helpful!

I think you thanked the wrong person.  I just liked the posts because it was good info for me as well.

[Sterling59]

Thanks YT!!

😀

[hornet]

I usually use black, brown, tan and sometimes grey. I tend to use cotton or linen rather than polyester. I usually pick up my threads an antique stores. (People collect cotton reels here in Australia.) 

Edited September 2 by hornet

[dafi]

My 27 cents as for the color, as seen at Hermione:

 

50-thousend shades of brownish grey 🙂

 

No one is alike the other and even the shrouds are not completely black 😉

 

XXXDAn

Edited September 9 by dafi

[dvm27]

With regards to color, what often begins as Manila hemp  starts to deteriorate as soon as it is hit by sunlight, rain and salt water. As well, rope is constantly replaced on on a ship over time so it would not be wrong to show several shades of tan and gray. Standing rigging was usually tarred so darkish brown would be appropriate.

 

If you're wish to be super technical regarding your rope, note the worming of the shrouds in the first picture. Even at 1:48 scale, wormed roped that is then served is smoother that non-served rope. But Archfoto is the only builder I've seen do that and it's way above my pay grade!

 

[Pirate adam]

Dale,

 

Below are a couple pictures of rope displays I have been lucky enough to come across.  The first is from the ropery at Chatham dockyard.  The second is from Mystic Seaport.  They show that even in new rope there is a pretty wide variety of colors that would change over time.  The ropes in the Chatham display are from left to right hemp, Manilla, coir, sisal, and synthetic.  The ropes from Mystic are labelled.  Some of the hemp ropes from Mystic are tarred as well.

 

If you are interested in rope making I would recommend doing a google search for the ropery at Chatham Historic Dockyard.  It is super interesting and there are lots of pictures of the process.  They continue to make and sell rope in the same facility used to make ropes for the Royal Navy in the age of sail.

 

Adam

[Chuck]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in this discussion...but as a devoted student of studying contemporary models, I noted that many of them if not most of them used Tan rope exclusively.  No brown or black for standing rigging.  Now this could be early restoration work that was the "model style" in the early 1900's but it does give a model an interesting look however inaccurate to history it may be. Additionally, I have also seen contemporary models with original rigging that are exclusively rigged with "hemp" colored tan rope as well.  So it adds another possibility.   Dont put yourself in the usual "box" of what is popular today or expected of you.   Think outside of the box and the results might just surprise you. Its no different than planking with pear below the wales and boxwood above them.  Its just a visual style.  I know that Culver was partial to this style and the vast majority of models at the USNA he worked on are rigged in this way.  I have long wanted to try this and still might do so on a future project.   Its quite interesting to me.

 

I am contemplating this very choice for my Speedwell at this very moment.   I am curious what a modern model would look like with such a rig.

 

 

 

 

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, dvm27 said:

With regards to color, what often begins as Manila hemp  starts to deteriorate as soon as it is hit by sunlight, rain and salt water. As well, rope is constantly replaced on on a ship over time so it would not be wrong to show several shades of tan and gray. Standing rigging was usually tarred so darkish brown would be appropriate.

 

If you're wish to be super technical regarding your rope, note the worming of the shrouds in the first picture. Even at 1:48 scale, wormed roped that is then served is smoother that non-served rope. But Archfoto is the only builder I've seen do that and it's way above my pay grade!

 

One question I have never been able to fully resolve which that picture brings up is worming without serving. Was it common for ropes to be wormed and tarred, but not served?

[Kenchington]

1 hour ago, Thukydides said:

Was it common for ropes to be wormed and tarred, but not served?

Yes, if "common" means many ships had some lengths wormed but not parcelled and served.

 

No, if you mean was much of the rigging done that way.  It was one treatment among several alternatives and had specialized purposes at particular times.

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

2 hours ago, Chuck said:

many of them if not most of them used Tan rope exclusively.  No brown or black for standing rigging. 

Note also, in the posted images, that much (not all) of the rigging is in left-laid cord of some kind, whereas almost all rope is right-laid. That departure from full-size practice (I won't call it an "error") stands out like a sore thumb once you have the eye for it.

 

Sure, any sailing-ship model is (today) a work of art rather than a miniature version of some full-size prototype. But, for myself, I don't see the artistry in misrepresenting the cordage.

 

Trevor

[dvm27]

In French Navy Board ship models I've noted that approach as well Chuck. I actually like the way it looks. According to M. Delacroix, the noted French naval scholar:

 

"In the French Navy, all ropes are tarred, whether standing or running. This color is reddish-brown. The color then changes with use:
- The color of the standing rigging dont change and even tends to darken with the successive layers of tar it periodically receives, turning a dark brown close to black.
- The color of the running rigging does exactly the opposite; the ropes lighten as they pass through the blocks, as they rub against other elements in the mast, and of course at the mooring points. The color of these ropes then becomes slightly lighter, towards a light brown.

 

The vast majority of models in French museums were re-rigged by people with limited knowledge. It is therefore not surprising to find beige ropes in museums."

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, dvm27 said:

In French Navy Board ship models I've noted that approach as well Chuck. I actually like the way it looks. According to M. Delacroix, the noted French naval scholar:

I agree with you...its just a model convention.   I like the way it look as well.  I do also like the look using historically correct colors too.   But again, its just an artists approach.  I do however think Henry Culvers knew what he was doing.  This seemed to be a very popular rigging style in the heyday of ship modeling from 1880 to 1930ish.

 

Check out the fine auctions currently being held.   A French model of Sirene made in France in 1880...It actually looks much older.  A steal at $14K.  Minor restoration and cleaning needed, LOL.  My wife would kill me.  Why in Gods name would someone ruin this patina by painting the port lids such a fresh bright red!!!!!  That makes me hurt a little inside.

 

https://www.chairish.com/product/21201899/large-ship-model-of-la-sirene-with-cannons-and-mermaid-masthead-france-circa-1880

 

 

 

[Gregory]

Just to add a bit more to what Chuck is saying.

 

Here is a model from the Science Museum.  It is the model referenced in Petersson's Rigging Fore & Aft craft.

I think the lighter rope throughout would be an interesting departure from most of what we see now.

[dafi]

Just to support Chuck´s and Greg´s observation: When I started to hit the french forums, I was surprised them not doing the "usual" diffentiation in color inbeteen the standing and running rigging. Even more they were surprised that we or better I did.

 

Eversince I orientate myself more on the style I saw on Hermione: different colors due to different level of tarring and also different bleaching by sun and salt.

 

To the question if parts are wormed but not served I would like to show you the pictures of Invincible´s stays, nice to see the different worming, serving and the differences of stay and preventer stay 🙂

 

The mainstay wormed the whole length, served around the masthead up to the mouse, the preventer no worming along the length but wormed and served around the masthead. All pictures taken from the Facebook site of Invincible wreck.

 

Enjoy!

 

XXXDAn

Edited September 11 by dafi

[Thukydides]

4 hours ago, dafi said:

The mainstay wormed the whole length, served around the masthead up to the mouse, the preventer no worming along the length but wormed and served around the masthead. All pictures taken from the Facebook site of Invincible wreck.

Those are some very interesting pictures.

 

The thing that stands out to me is the 3rd picture where it appears the double block has the same woven material over its strap as the mouse. Also the woven texture appears to continue down further on the rope in picture 2 not just over the mouse. I have never seen this before.

 

Thanks for sharing them.

[wefalck]

I think one needs to also differentiate between the time before around 1850 and after and the regions.

 

From the later 1830s or so on gasification of coal (gas for street and then domestic lighting and heating) and the production of coke for blast furnaces rapidly increased, initally in the UK and then on the continent. A byproduct from this process is coal-tar and -pitch, which is black, as opposed to the brownish colour of Stockholm tar.

 

From that period on coal-tar was increasingly used on ships, making the standing rigging black or dark grey when weathering. For the running rigging Stockholm tar may have been used still for a longer time.

 

The availability and price of coal-tar varied across the European regions. I would assume that Stockholm tar persisted longer e.g. in the Baltic area, as it was closer to the sources of Stockholm tar and more distant to the industrialised areas that produced the coal-tar.

 

Thus I would expect a stronger contrast between standing and running rigging from the second half of the 19th century on.

 

 

[Kenchington]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

coal-tar was increasingly used on ships

I won't say that is wrong but I find it surprising -- where tarring of cordage is concerned. @wefalck: Can you point to your source for the use of coal tar in ship rigging, before the era of museum ships?

 

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

For the running rigging Stockholm tar may have been used still for a longer time

There's scope for some confusion here.

 

When laying up new rope in a ropewalk, both hemp and manila fibres were always tarred with pine tar -- the Stockholm (actually made more broadly in Sweden and probably elsewhere around the Baltic) product being preferred. So far as I am aware, that has never ceased, though few ropewalks produce hemp or manila material now. (Whether other fibres were tarred is more than I can say. I'll guess that cotton wasn't and isn't, but I don't know about coir. Modern synthetics are not.)

 

That tarring of fibres when rope was/is made was/is standard. However, it would be unusual to apply extra tar to the outside of running rigging, once it was in place on board, aside from on servings covering eyes at ends and so forth. Surface tar along the length of running lines would gum up blocks, coat the crew in tar and generally create a mess. 

 

So we have standing rigging dark because of repeated application of tar to its surfaces, running rigging a lighter brown because its only tar is internal.

 

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

2 hours ago, Thukydides said:

the double block has the same woven material over its strap as the mouse. Also the woven texture appears to continue down further on the rope

That is interesting. 

 

I think it is pointing but maybe grafting (and please don't ask me to define the difference!). Ashley illustrated multiple alternatives as his #3550 to #3565, with others scattered about on nearby pages of his tome. But why go to the extra trouble n the eye of a stay, instead of just serving? Did it produce a thicker cover for the rope within? Was it more stable, if part was worn away, where long lengths of service can come loose?

 

Or maybe the ship's bo's'un was just showing off his skills and the pride in his ship!

 

Trevor

[dafi]

I still wonder if this block is a Stay Tackle Pendant / Fore hatch Tackle Pendant. Also it appears as it has an iron thimble around the stay. Often a sign that it should slide up and down. But there is a small seizing just beside that seems to block it - also what about the snaking in between the main and preventer stay. By the worming this block is attached at the main stay.

 

XXXDAn

Edited Monday at 07:10 AM by dafi

[RossR]

Does anyone have a source for a tan colored Gutermann Mara 220 thread.  I looked at Wawak where I have purchase Gutermann thread before and they only offer the 220 in 5 colors and in very large spools.  

[Chuck]

Not in the USA...unfortunately.

 

But these guys carry it along with even smaller stuff.  UK distributor.  Most are in Europe for the oddball sizes.  

 

https://www.williamgee.co.uk/product-tag/mara/

 

 

[RossR]

50 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Not in the USA...unfortunately

Thanks.  Unfortunately that now means tariffs.  I have been practicing your technique with 3/32 blocks.   Need the smaller thread.   

[Chuck]

On the bright side though...One bobbin will literally last you forever.  Get both the tan and the dark brown for serving and seizing and you will be set for life.

 

Chuck

[Chuck]

Choosing the right color…its a very personal choice.  Here are a couple of choices.  I am seriously considering NOT going dark brown for standing rigging on Speedwell as I mentioned earlier.
 

But rather than use the same Tan color I usually use for running rigging,  my thoughts were to go slightly darker with the tan.  Considering it will be used for both and after looking at so many models rigged in this style I am making some test rope and will choose one. Eventually.

 

Here is my normal tan alongside one that is a shade or two darker for this style of rigging.  Too dark?  Or is the light one ok?  
 

You are correct to ask which color but in the end it is a very difficult choice.  Excuse all the dust on the model.  That happens so quickly.

 

 

 

I am selecting my test threads based on this model...I like the color used here very much and it isnt very light at all.  

 

 

The Mara colors…

 

dark left and light right.  Note how similar they look below yet after laying up the rope they are quite different.   The 265 color appears much lighter after laying up the rope so this is why testing is needed which takes time and money unfortunately.  I am leaning towards the darker variety...

 

For dark brown I use # 682.
 

 

[Sterling59]

Chuck,

 

I've really enjoyed the expansion of this thread from what I thought was originally just a simple question, just goes to show how much fun everybody can have when the get involved with a hobby!!

 

The biggest problem I had was trying to match the on line MARA colours with pictures of models....nothing seemed to match up, which gels with your comment about colours looking different when laid up as rope. I'm dying to get going with my new Syren Ropewalk! 😉

 

The darker color on your test rope looks to match the referenced model very well and would look great on a light coloured model (opinion from a novice!) .

Maybe a shade or two lighter than you normal "tarred" might just give a little variation if you aren't sold on all one colour...

 

Thanks for all the information you freely share, it is really helpful!

 

Dale. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

You are welcome…what really helped me save money and pick the correct colors was simply to pay the extra 10 bucks and buy the Guttermann color chart.  Made with the actual

thread.   I have it and the colors are spot on.  Its still hard to pick a color though.

 

 

[Sterling59]

Ah ha!! Didnt know there was one! Will get it with my order....😀