TO PAINT OR NOT TO PAINT (Moved by moderator)

[shihawk]

As a new member and having browsed the general discussion section Im interested in hearing others opinion on finishing wooden kits without painting. My first build was a BLUENOSE and after sanding ,filling maybe 3 or 4 times i got the finish i needed to paint over countless hours of work planking . As my first attempt at planking I know it needed painting but my next and present build a CC CRUISER with a double planked hull i will leave unpainted and like the effect so much i would prefere not to use paint again .Problem is i have my eye on a VICTORY model and cant imagine what it would be like unpainted .Does anyone else feel the same or has built any unpainted large ships? Is there a section on this site already discussing this topic? If so can anyone point me to it . If not i would love to hear everones thoughts and opinions 

[twintrow]

The main reason I started building wooden ships is that I like the WOOD in the ships.  Painting them takes away from the "feel" of the ship I think.

Of course there are some ships that need a certain amount of color to fit the time frame of the model.  But generally I would rather not add paint.

I prefer an all wood look for the Endeavour for example, but see the necessity to paint a crabber, or even a Greek Bireme.

 

MHO

Tom

Edited November 4, 2013 by twintrow

[NMBROOK]

Welcome to the forum shihawk.I personally am not a great fan of paint on builds for myself.Where colour is necessary I try to use wood of the necessary colour.This is one reason why I wouldn't build Victory unless it was as launched,i.e.no Nelson chequer.However,but it does mean changing the kit timber,have a look at Vanguard by Alexey Domanoff in the kit build section.He has used timber to produce the stripes and IMHO looks ten times better than paint.

Kind Regards Nigel

[Bill Hime]

As a carpenter of the purest blood, I will avoid to the best of my ability to lay paint over wood. My goal too, is to use woods that natural color will celebrate the design without sacrificing the pedigree of the lumber used.

Perhaps a thinned wash with the represented pigment...just my thoughts

 

Warm Regards,

 

Bill 

[JPett]

Ahoy shihawk

 

It is a tough call but I believe this image shows it can be done

Edited November 4, 2013 by JPett

[catopower]

Hello Shlhawk,

 

That's a very good question and the funny thing is that I have been actually faced with exactly the same issue regarding HMS Victory and paint. I am building a model for someone and I'm trying to figure out a way to build it without paint. But, I don't like the way the ship looks without paint. Or at least the way the completed kit might look if I build it without paint.

 

Personally, I think the bias for no paint on a model is just a bias. It's all personal opinion and my own is that paint can frame a model quite nicely and create a contrast that can make the wood on a model stand out. Most ships never looked the way an all wood finish model looks, but that's fine if that's what you like. I'm thinking I'd like to build the Victory with natural wood tone for the yellow bands and for the area that would normally be coppered and then where it's black, I'd like to paint it. Then, that makes it easier to paint the stern galleries which might look a bit odd unpainted while using the kit supplied parts, at least to me.

 

In my experience, when someone asks what people think about a topic, they usually have something in mind and are looking for some encouragement to follow their own ideas. If you feel your model should be all natural, then that's the way you should build it, and if you think it needs some paint, then don't worry about it and go ahead and paint. There should be plenty of examples of both on MSW.

 

As for my case, I need to figure out a way to convince the owner that we'll have a great looking model with my limited paint scheme plan. So, unfortunately, I can't follow my own advice and just do it the way I want. 

 

But, good luck and regardless of what you decide, I'll be looking forward to seeing your build here on MWS,

 

Clare

[Patrick Haw]

Just My two cents worth.  Finish your hull just how you feel.  For my part, I am a Trafalgar buff and am building my Victory as she appeared to the French and Spanish fleet on that day.  She was painted

 

Patrick

[mtaylor]

In my opinion, you can paint completely, paint just bits and pieces, or not at all.  It depends on how you, as the builder want to represent the ship.  Hahn used fabric dye on some of his kits to stain the wood.  Others, stain or just a wash to suggest paint.  And then there's the full blown painting including friezes, statuary, etc.   There really is no correct or incorrect way to do it.

 

You can also paint with wood, such as ebony, boxwood, swiss pear, redheart, yellowheart and purpleheart.

 

When in doubt, follow your heart and do it your way.

[demonborger]

I personally think it looks best when a combination of paint, stain and natural wood/varnished wood is used.

 

Of course each person can do whatever they wish.

 

The paint adds some nice colour contrast i find.

Edited November 4, 2013 by demonborger

[Bill Hime]

To build anything with your hands is as much about art as it is an interpretation of history. What we create is as much about our soul as it is about our need to replicate something that already exist.

 

We are artisans, be free to interpret as you will...

 

 

Bill

[pompey2]

I guess that if you see us all as a logical continuation of a long established model boat building tradition then you wouldn't generally use paint. I agree that my greatest enjoyment is with the working of a wood model, that's what started me off. Having said that here I am doing a Victory and fully painted. There should be no reason why an individual doesn't mix and match as they think appropriate. Good topic!

 

Nick

 

[ca.shipwright]

You can "paint with wood". You can use bloodwood for the bulworks and gun port framing. You can use boxwood which is creamy color along with ebony for the Victory stripes. Or, if you don't or can't use ebony you can ebonize boxwood with a black sharpie and Wipe on Poly.

 

I have seen ship painted, natural or both. The most interesting was a model of the Endevour with just the royal blue stripe above the wales. Very pretty.

 

Michael

[demonborger]

If one had the resources and expertise then i agree that exotic woods for different colours will look perhaps the nicest. 

 

This link to a Ukrainian/Russian page has many fine examples of exotic wood in use, boxwood, ebony and pear produce a fine result.

 

http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/le_ambiteux/index.htm

 

For many the exotic woods are hard to source, or perhaps the builder is not quite ready to make good use of it, fortunately their is always paint, or a combination finish.

 

Looking at Chris Watton's 1/64 Victory you can see how good paint can look.

 

One of the nicest things about this hobby is the variety and freedom to create. Wood is an amazing material to work with, it can be cut, shaped, finished, replaced, stained, painted etc

Edited November 4, 2013 by demonborger

[amateur]

Problem with 'painting with wood' is that you will have to think of rather far-fetched solutions when the colours are not completely coinciding with the various pieces. e.g in Victory, the yellow/black striping doesn not correspond one-to-one with the strakes of the planking.

 

Personally I like the way Chuck Passaro uses paint: (look at his Conferderay): not too garish, but the colour-accents are definitely there.

 

Jan

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Wooden ship kit manufacturers seldom show a painted completed model on the kits box art. I think this practice has instilled the idea in some people’s heads that the finished kit should be left unpainted. I think the kit manufacturers actual intentions though are only to clearly depict the different materials provided in the kit and a painted model would disguise the different species of wood or white metal or brass parts the kit features. This aside, there is a lot to be said for the practice of leaving a model unpainted that has nothing to do with how kits are marketed. Demonstrating to the viewer a models true nature is best done without covering anything with paint. For instance it would make no sense at all to paint a bone model.  On the other hand I don’t think any serious plastic kit model builders ever leave any part of a finished plastic kit unpainted, their goal is to produce something that “looks like the real thing”, not to “demonstrate the true nature” of the styrene plastic the kit was made of. So I think the intentions of the builder dictate weather or not to use paint. I will point out though that there were no unpainted ships sailing the world’s oceans. Every exterior surface on a wooden ship was painted tarred oiled or varnished in one way or another in order to protect the ship from the elements and any wooden vessel that didn’t get some sort of surface coating would quickly be reduced to driftwood by the marine environment.

[shihawk]

Im glad i asked that question .At least now i know its not some daft idea i got into my head. I think as Jerseycity Frankie mentioned my previous countless  plastic builds left me thinking that a true modeller paints and finishes as the instructions dictate .With plastic kits how a model was painted was often more important than the actual building.Wooden kits well built may not need paint to look finished. I think i have finally got it .Im interested in the idea of useing different woods to obtain colour variations .This will need some research and maybe another interim kit to experiment on before my Victory .Thanks for the pointers to relevent builds on msw and any more info would be welcome.Will keep you all posted as to how it goes. 

[demonborger]

Yeah as above if the wales don't correspond to the black colour bands (like the Victory) then the structural integrity will be changed, unless you enjoy jigsaw puzzles - but then again as a builder you main not prioritize that over a wood finish.

[shihawk]

after a few days scanning the site i realise that many of you fellow builders have similiar ideas to myself and use paint to enhance where necessary  and omit when not.  My current build is still at a stage where i can experiment to a certain degree and have picked up a lot of ideas from build sites etc.   

[JPett]

Ahoy Shihawk

 

Just to confuse the matter a bit more there is painting bare wood or pre-treated wood. And let us not forget sanding it smooth or leaving it rough when not painting. Simply put there are a lot of options.

[shihawk]

my thinking is that it must be sanded if not painted not only for looks but sanded at scale may reprosent rough in full size  . On another point many members seem to have more than one build on going at one time .I know the feeling of overwhelming desire to start a new build but would be afraid if i did not finish my present build i would finish up with rows of unfinished models .Are there not problems finding the motivation to return to an old build? Plus mixing up parts from different builds .Maybe im not well enough organised? 

[JPett]

Ahoy Shihawk

 

I have two builds, actually three. I like going between different builds. Theses kits take a long time and I find a break from one build lets me come back to it with a better attitude. Especially if I am starting to stagnant. I have one main build and then at least one side build. There is a big difference between taking a break and quitting. It also is not for everyone.

 

As for the sanding, look at some of the manufacturer's pictures of completed kits. Many are shown with minimum sanding. I think it is a good look. I sanded the crap out my Rattlesnake build and it looks more and more like a plastic kit every day.  What I have learned is to sand the wood then wet it to raise the grain, once dry I hit it with the wipe on poly. A little late for the Ratt but she still looks good.

Edited November 8, 2013 by JPett

[shihawk]

sounds intresting might give it a go . Theres so many new things to try out i may have to start numerous builds after all   .

[HIPEXEC]

My Constructo USS Constitution is designed not to be painted. They provided contrasting colored woods to provide the drama. I'm determined to finish it un-painted, but it is tempting to plan painting so I don't have to be so careful with all that planking. Wood filler makes up for sloppy planking.

Good luck,

[mtaylor]

For those interested, look at some of Hahn's work and most of Frolich's works.  (Frolich's work here: http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/artdumodelisme/indexgb.html)  They do the "paint with wood" masterfully and I wish I had those skills.. maybe someday.   What they will do, if the plank changes color due to paint, they carefully fit wood in of the the color needed.  Usually ebony and either boxwood or pear, depending on who's work you're looking at.  I'm just in awe of that kind of work.  Frolich even does it on masts. 

[mog]

Like many have said it’s your build, do it your way.  I build for the builder, in my current build log rattlesnake by mog you can see I  hardly ever use paint,  stains  blended with different types of  wood gives  the build its own expression.  yes it goes against the historical look of the ship, but again for me this is a hobby, not a profession I’m not a master craftsman , simply put I let the build take its own course , some will hate it ,some will like it, at the end of the day the eye of the builder is what matters most.  just my thoughts. 

[shihawk]

Have just looked at some of Frolics work and i must admit it is incredable. Must find out more about different wood types and staining effects before i start my next build  . I had been thinking of the caldercraft Victory but now rekon i should do a smaller cheaper build and try experimenting on it . Or  i could buy different samples of wood and use different staining and varnishing methods  .Need to keep a good record of what method produces what finish.Will search this site  for ideas first, no point in repeating someones mistakes .[i will find an excuse to start my VICTORY sooner rather than later] 

As you say MOG its my build i can do it my way.I think i have finally got a plan worked out in my head, thanks everyone who posted coments as all advice is wellcome .Will keep you posted of my progress if anyones interested.

[ChrisLBren]

Frolichs method is a variation on the Belgian School - which exclusively uses Pear Wood.  He uses Ebony for all black areas, Boxwood for Carvings/Moldings, and Maple for deck.  He doesn't use stain or dye but relays on the beauty of these finished woods.  Its not really painting wood per se - which tends use more colorful woods such as bloodwood for bulwarks and several other exotic species in a build but more of a three tone approach - Dark tone, Mid tone and Light tone - which I personally find very attractive.  

 

Heres a link

 

http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/artdumodelisme/conf/confgb.pdf

[shihawk]

thanks for the info CRIS .Gives me even more to think about and sounds maybe even less complicated than the methods i had been considering.

[ChrisLBren]

Ebony is a bear to work with though - I prefer to dye pear with Fiebings Leather Shoe Dye to imitate it

[amateur]

The paint-no paint is one you can only answer yourself.

Frohlich is very mucht on the non-paint side. I took a small text-fragment from one of my books written by Ab Hoving (Ships of Abel Tasman), former head of the ship-department in the Dutch Rijksmuseum. He is using modelmaking as a way of discovering how ships at the time were build, and how they did look/could have looked. From tha point, he takes a very strong position in the paint debate:

Edited November 11, 2013 by amateur