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Lettie G Howard by captainbob - FINISHED - 1:48 - POB - schooner


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Yes, it's a sad day when we can't learn from our fellow modellers.

 

Steve

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 Bob and Steve this seems to be the order of the day.

 

Michael

 

 

Yes, it's a sad day when we can't learn from our fellow modellers.

 

Steve

 

 

As we learn from each other, do we become experts or jack of all trades?  The difference is that the expert learns more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing.  On the other hand the jack of all trades learns less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about everything.

 

Ah, well, just a thought.   :)  :)  

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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David,

 

Let’s look at what we as ship modelers need to know.  Basically we work in wood, but also glue, paint, metal, cloth, thread and string, some plastic, some paper and for R/C you need to know electric and control systems.  That sounds like a jack of all trades to me.

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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On the other hand the jack of all trades learns less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about everything.

So let us all hope that we are not named Jack.... no offense meant to the Jacks of the world.

 

So where is the Jack-staff located to bring this back to the build?

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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I don't think sail boats/ships ever had a jackstaff. 

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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Well according to the Random House Dictionary definition 2 is that a jack shaft is the shaft upon which an idle wheel or fair-lead turns. I thought that there were fair-leads on ships and boats :)

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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It is also a pole that stands in the bow of a boat upon which a flag called a jack flag flies.  They were used a lot on paddle wheel river boats to help with the steering.

 

Bob

Edited by Cap'n'Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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Hmm... you two are mixing apples and hand grenades.  One's saying jack staff, the other is saying jack shaft.  

 

"Jack not name.  Jack is job" --- Sweetums (Muppet Movie)

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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You're right. My error.

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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oh,  woe be to the names taken in context....I could name them.......but it would get rather jaded near the end ;)

 

is your name not Bruce

 

no, it's Michael

 

that's gonna cause a bit of confusion......mind if we call ya Bruce to keep it clear?

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

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oh,  woe be to the names taken in context....I could name them.......but it would get rather jaded near the end ;)

 

is your name not Bruce

 

no, it's Michael

 

that's gonna cause a bit of confusion......mind if we call ya Bruce to keep it clear?

 

Let's try to call you Ray, but we don't have to call you Johnson.   Reference for those who remember this -->  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LztZu5s0-QU

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

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G'day Bruce!

Have you seen Bruce?

No Bruce.

Edited by Bedford
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OK, if we’re through name calling we can go on.  So moving right along.  I want to do everything necessary to the hull before I finish the deck. I put down the seven planks that make up the king plank. Why it is raised above the other planks I do not know.  The bowsprit is mortised into the sampson post and just set in place.  I mounted the staples that nothing is attached to.  Also the bowsprit chain plates (is that the correct name?) have been mounted.

 

post-513-0-57129500-1396384387_thumb.jpg

raised king planks.

 

post-513-0-98199300-1396384395_thumb.jpg

 

post-513-0-67954700-1396384432_thumb.jpg

 

post-513-0-10611800-1396384442_thumb.jpg

The sampson post doubles as the crutch for the jib boom.

 

post-513-0-71224000-1396384456_thumb.jpg

 

post-513-0-99088000-1396384475_thumb.jpg

 

post-513-0-62222500-1396384487_thumb.jpg

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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very nice progress Bob!  bow spirit looks nice........planking too  :)    I wonder if the thicker planking gives more support for the masts?

I yam wot I yam!

finished builds:
Billings Nordkap 476 / Billings Cux 87 / Billings Mary Ann / Billings AmericA - reissue
Billings Regina - bashed into the Susan A / Andrea Gail 1:20 - semi scratch w/ Billing instructions
M&M Fun Ship - semi scratch build / Gundalow - scratch build / Jeanne D'Arc - Heller
Phylly C & Denny-Zen - the Lobsie twins - bashed & semi scratch dual build

Billing T78 Norden

 

in dry dock:
Billing's Gothenborg 1:100 / Billing's Boulogne Etaples 1:20
Billing's Half Moon 1:40 - some scratch required
Revell U.S.S. United States 1:96 - plastic/ wood modified / Academy Titanic 1:400
Trawler Syborn - semi scratch / Holiday Harbor dual build - semi scratch

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The planking looks good Bob, will you be adding any support at the edges where the planks but up to the cover board?

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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That brass piece on the bowsprit looks wonderful. I can't see solder marks. You didn't pull a Michael and carve it from a solid brass billet did you?

 

Details please?

BTW, is there a lower latch point for the bobstay? I don't seem to see one, or is there a bobstay? or is it attached another way?

 

sorry for all the questions....(not really, I like learning from the pro's) :dancetl6:

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Bob I am guessing that yuo made the bowsprit piece from a long strip and folded it in four places wrapping it around and then soldering the closed spaces between the two side of each tab. I could be completely wrong of course.

 

Michael

Current builds  Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8;      Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8;       Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8

Other projects  Pilot Cutter 1:500 ;   Maria, 1:2  Now just a memory    

Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8

Finished projects  A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100  

 

Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it.

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I like your brass parts Bob,

 

Deckplanking an bulwarks also looking great

 

Nils

Current builds

-Lightship Elbe 1

Completed

- Steamship Ergenstrasse ex Laker Corsicana 1918- scale 1:87 scratchbuild

"Zeesboot"  heritage wooden fishing small craft around 1870, POB  clinker scratch build scale 1:24

Pilot Schooner # 5 ELBE  ex Wanderbird, scale 1:50 scratchbuild

Mississippi Sterwheelsteamer built as christmapresent for grandson modified kit build

Chebec "Eagle of Algier" 1753--scale 1:48-POB-(scratchbuild) 

"SS Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse" four stacker passenger liner of 1897, blue ribbond awarded, 1:144 (scratchbuild)
"HMS Pegasus" , 16 gun sloop, Swan-Class 1776-1777 scale 1:64 from Amati plan 

-"Pamir" 4-mast barque, P-liner, 1:96  (scratchbuild)

-"Gorch Fock 2" German Navy cadet training 3-mast barque, 1:95 (scratchbuild) 

"Heinrich Kayser" heritage Merchant Steamship, 1:96 (scratchbuild)  original was my grandfathers ship

-"Bohuslän" , heritage ,live Swedish museum passenger steamer (Billings kit), 1:50 

"Lorbas", river tug, steam driven for RC, fictive design (scratchbuild), scale appr. 1:32

under restoration / restoration finished 

"Hjejlen" steam paddlewheeler, 1861, Billings Boats rare old kit, scale 1:50

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I agee with Jim.  These schooners were designed for hard driving .  The faster out the faster in.  The king plank was added to give more support to the hull.

David B

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First off, thanks for all the good comments and the likes.

 

Several of you made the same comments and asked the same questions.  So let me answer you all together.

 

The thicker planking is the king plank for added strength.  And there would be added beams below the deck to help support the masts.  I’m just surprise that the added thickness is above the rest of the deck.  It seems that it would be a cause for stumbling.

 

No, I’m not up to carving brass like Michael.  Besides this model is 1:48 instead of 1:8.  The brass piece on the bowsprit is made of .005” X .060” strip folded and soft soldered.  My soldering iron has a 1/8” chisel point.  I dab the joints with a liquid flux then place a small amount of solder on the flat of the iron and just touch it to the joint.  The brass being so small it heats fast and sucks the solder up into the joint.   Good guess, Michael.

 

There will be two straps on the bow at about waterline.  One will hold a line going to the end of the bowsprit the other will have a line going farther back where the second jib stay will fasten.

 

I hadn’t considered supporting the planking along the edge but I probably should.

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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I went back to page one and relooked at
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=Drawing:%20ny1621&fi=number&op=PHRASE&va=exact&co%20=hh&st=gallery&sg%20=%20true

It's kind of blurry if expanded but I see what your talking about.

So here's some rookie questions.
I've noticed that of most of the pilot boats with only a foresail and no jib that the foremast is set much farther forward. On the Schooners the mast seems to be set farther back which moves the connection point of the foresail at about the stem line (instead of the bow-end) and the end of the bow the attachment for the jig...flying jig. Was this a developmental stage of the pilot boats evolution into schooners, aside from the hulls reshaping?

On the solder job, its amazing. I guess the fold gives it that bulkier look which looks more proportional. I think I'll borrow that mention as I'll soon be starting the DSotM again and starting the rigging of her, since the longboat project is about finished.
Again looking at the Lettie pg 1 I see what appears to be the 2 connection points. So it that a cross design between separate shrouds and bobstay like below.

from Petersson's text

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Ah Keith, now you’re getting into the physics and design aspects of ships. 

 

First, the placement of the masts and sails are a balancing act with the underwater shape of the ship.  Let’s take the profile of the ship hull below the waterline, and let’s find the center of area of that shape.  We will pretend that our ship is a wind vane and place the mounting post at this center of area point.  Now it is time to place the sails.  It becomes obvious that if the sails are too far forward the bow turns away from the wind and if the sails are too far astern the bow turns up into the wind.  This same thing happens to a ship in the water.  The locations of the sails have to be balanced with the underwater shape of the hull or the ship will turn into or away from the wind like the weather vane.  It becomes a little more complicated than that when the sails have to be shortened in a storm and the captain needs to know which sails can be reefed and how much to maintain this balance.

 

“Was this a developmental stage of the pilot boats evolution into schooners, aside from the hulls reshaping?”  Every new design of any type of boat is an evolutionary experiment in that the designer really doesn’t know if the new design is good or not until the boat is in the water and sailing.

 

Back again on sails, the wind pressure on a sail can be great.  A breeze of 30 MPH produces a force of 3.5 lbs. per square foot on the sail.  Concerning a jib sail this force is taken by the jib stay that tries to bend away from the wind.  The force on the jib stay will lift the bowsprit right off the ship.  So they tied the bow sprit down at the bow of the ship and placed the sampson post at the heal of the bowsprit to keep it from pushing down through the deck. The fore end of the bowsprit still lifted so they put chains under the jib stay location to hold the bowsprit down and also lines on the sides to stop the sideways motion.

 

The sail plan you were looking at was the plan as the Lettie was when bought.  I want to build it as it was originally.  The diagram below shows the sails and rigging I will follow.   

 

If you still have questions feel free to ask.  I love discussing ship and boat design.

 

Bob

 

post-513-0-57551300-1396545739_thumb.gif

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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Thanks Lawrence, Your Victory is coming along nicely also.  I wish I had the room to try something like that.  Sorry you haven’t received the drawings of the Stone yet.  Hopefully before you finish the Victory.

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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Capt Bob, your Schooner is coming along magnificently. There is a series of books out there about Pilots and there history. They give a very detailed history of the evolution of the pilot boat.

David B

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Thanks David, is the series called "Pilots and their History" ?

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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Bob the books are Pilots: Pilot Schooner of North Amercai and Great Britain and Pilot: The World of Pilotage Under Sail and Oar.  both are by Tom CunLiffe 

David B

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Thanks David.  I'll look for them.

 

Bob

Every build is a learning experience.

 

Current build:  SS_ Mariefred

 

Completed builds:  US Coast Guard Pequot   Friendship-sloop,  Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard,   Spray,   Grand-Banks-dory

                                                a gaff rigged yawl,  HOGA (YT-146),  Int'l Dragon Class II,   Two Edwardian Launches 

 

In the Gallery:   Catboat,   International-Dragon-Class,   Spray

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You won't be disappointed Bob, I just luckily found both volumes on ebay in unused condition for $35 (that's a steal, plus free shipping).

 

They've been on my want list since I found that Vol 1 is available on Google books, although only partially. If I recall correctly PopJack pointed me at the google books as well as Tidewater Triumph: The Development and Worldwide Success of the Chesapeake Bay Pilot Schooner by Geoffrey M. Footner.
 
The quality of the full glossy pages of Cunliffe's set, I put up there with Frolich's, The Art of Ship Modeling sold by ANCRE. They are also full size like Frolich's work. Cunliffe was the chief editor and writer of several sections, but they are the work of many experts. The shear volume of contemporary paintings is worth the price, not to mention the text.  
 
Here's the link for google books vol 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=VNsGi3nmuaQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

and the 2 at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Pilots-Pilotage-Schooners-America-Britain/dp/0937822698
and
http://www.amazon.com/Pilots-Pilotage-Schooners-European-Watermen/dp/0937822760/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=13QMZCTWVCR6SWS555HE

The Footner text
http://www.amazon.com/Tidewater-Triumph-Development-Worldwide-Chesapeake/dp/0870335111/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1397065626&sr=8-5&keywords=pilot+schooners

Of course one of the best additions of late to my library is Chapelles, The American Fishing Schooners, 1825-1935. Its worth its weight in gold for the alphabetized diagrams of rigging details. I found it on ebay for $8.
http://www.amazon.com/The-American-Fishing-Schooners-1825-1935/dp/039303755X/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1397065626&sr=8-7&keywords=pilot+schooners

All these have been one reason the DSotM came to a halt as I delved into researching the Fore and aft schooner rig. One should also not forget Petersson's 2 excellent volumes. His Rigging: Period Fore-and-Aft Craft I have in pdf and its on my wish list in hardcover.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591147212/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=Z8PB5ZFM5FCH&coliid=I2S7O01XB8VDJL

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