HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[AON]

Spent about 90 minutes visiting (at his invitation) one of our local model club members.  He understands this is my first ever scratch build ship and we both understand I know next to nothing.  As my wife said to me as I went out the door: I am so blessed to live so close to such a skilled model maker.  There are few real gentlemen and just plain thoughtful and sharing people in this world.

 

Came home and tore everything off the port side to match the starboard side to allow me to follow his suggestions.  I must admit it didn't hurt to remove them this time.  I believe I have become immune to the pain.

 

He recommended I consider making and spot gluing all the frames in place so I might remove them later.  They need to be marked (I'll do this at the heel) with their station numbers.  As a group are installed I should sand them to shape while I can still easily reach inside.  Once all are installed I can apply a batten at the proper distances above the gun decks and lightly mark off the gunport top/bottom openings in one step, marking an X on each frame to indicate what to cut out.

Then I should remove the frames and cut out each gunport individually.  The loose pieces above need to be lightly marked with station numbers on the same face as the lower portion, and indicate which end is the top (an arrow pointing upwards) so they get reinstalled properly.  Then (finally) reinstall them permanently. 

He also spent time demonstrated to me how make clean shallow cuts for the cills (sills) with a chisel, and described how he would make cills to match and fit, which was almost identical to what I had done (making the cills, not the cut outs).

 

So I am back to making the same frames, over, again.  I admit, that part just plain pisses me off.

It will be worth it in the end.  It will be worth it in the end.  It will be worth it in the end. 

I purposely haven't mentioned the gentleman's name as he doesn't share his knowledge or personal time for any acknowledgement.  He does it because it is his choice, because he can, and it seemed to him I might be heading down a road filled with aggravation.  Since he had been there many years ago, he might save me from some of it if I wasn't too thick headed to listen.  (Okay, I added the thick headed part because I know me).

 

Once again, thank you.

I hope to return the favour by sharing with some unfortunate modeller down the road... after I am blessed with some skill to share.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by AON

[mtaylor]

Good advice is priceless, Alan and I'm thinking it was actually great advice, not merely good.   Restarts are hard but on the bright side, you're not that far into the build yet.  Looking forward to see how this goes.

[BANYAN]

Great story Alan, there are far to few of these 'sharing' guys around.  I am happy to say that I have had a similar experience with a very experienced modeller in my club; his willingness to mentor and his patience are much appreciated - and as in your case he wanted nothing but to share his experience.

 

Look forward to your redos; they will be worth it.

 

cheers

 

Pat 

[SJSoane]

Alan,

 

Once I walk away from mistakes and eventually regain my composure, I think of my restarts as just practice. It sounds like you got some exceptionally good advice. My own gunports benefitted greatly from striking a line along the length of the hull, so I could see how each flowed to the next. Without seeing the overall line, it would have been too easy to slightly misalign and you would never know until it was all done and too late.

 

Having said this, I haven't quite regained my composure on my own recent Bellona mistake; I will follow your lead in this!

 

Mark

[AON]

Quite a bit has happened since my last post.

I am unofficially retired as of March 3rd (over a week ago).  About 9 months earlier than planned but my employer made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

 

Still making frames. Reached over the model and snapped the top timber off one that was still attached.  Remade it but none are attached as yet.

 

At the office I stood at my desk 90% of the time (one that adjusted) and now find my home desk computer screen height uncomfortable.  So yesterday I made a floating shelf.  It has been stained and needs a coat of Polyurethane before it gets mounted.  This is taking up room in the shipyard (playroom) so, as I cannot work on the ship at the moment, I decided to work on sketches for my figurehead.  I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but I also know this is going to take considerable amount of time, trial and error, to get right... so best start early.

 

After searching the web I decided on an image I liked and might be able to manipulate.

I inserted the image into DraftSight (a free downloadable early version of AutoCAD) and traced the image.

I worked in layers, hence the three colours to differentiate the layers.  I also used polylines and joined as many as possible.

I may have the back hoof too big.

I then inserted an image of my model's bow layout onto my sheet and traced it.  I suppose I should have made a DXF of the drawing, copied and pasted it in. 

DOH!   I'll do that next time when I get a better sense of the figurehead.

I scaled the wings smaller as they are a bit large.  Then I scaled Pegasus down leaving Bellerophon as is.

Then mirrored the whole thing so it was facing the same way as the bow and could be copied into my bow sketch.

I inserted this into the bow sketch, scaled it up to suit, rotated and took it in for a bit... let it soak in my brain.

Next I rotated Bellerophon, leaning him forward.

Rotated his right arm and both legs.

and finally shortened the spear.

I think she is getting there.  The spear isn't quite right.  Might need to fold the legs back at the knees.

I'll let this percolate a bit and come back to it later.

But you can get a sense of where I am going.

 

A special thank you to RMC for sending me some measurements off his Vanguard model and the optional 2nd Bellerophon figure head he had in his kit.

I've asked for a couple more measurements to help refine my sketch area.

 

Now I think I'll work on the 1:48 scale template drawings Gary requested a while ago (but I suggested he wait until I retired as I'd have more time then).

 

Then I have a shelf to put up, frames to make and install, take my car in for her regular maintenance....

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by AON

[AON]

here it is with the bow sketch from my build template (I made the DXF and put it in my sketch).

[druxey]

Before you go too far down this road, remember that the figure cannot project too far forward and is constrained by the bowsprit above and the lower cheek termination aft (red lines, approximate). Everything would be far more compacted, with minimal projections, such as wings or fully extended arms, to catch and be broken off.

[AON]

Tried to walk away but I just had to fold his legs back, shorten the wings more, shorten the pointy end of the spear, and clean up (simplify) the horses legs.

Now I need to let it rest a few days. Have been looking at numerous other figure heads and rigging and I was thinking along the lines of what you (Druxey) had sketched above.

Below is where I went. ... but I admit to liking your sketch a bit more.  It fits better, better scale, alleviates concerns for clearance of rigging and bowsprit.

 

At this time sketches cost nothing but spark ideas and give me something to try to whittle (or carve or gouge).  I think I have a far trip to develop a talent at this bit of wood magic before it can be considered I've gone to far down the road.  I am sure the first 5 to 10 goes would not have a chance to get near my bow!

 

Thank you for having steered me.

 

I have to ask.  How did you create such a nice looking sketch so damn fast?

(Talent?)

 

 

[druxey]

Just PhotoShop and a bit of experience carving figures...

[Beef Wellington]

Alan - I take my hat off to you, you really are doing an amazing job and overcoming challenges.  I would love to tackle something like this one day, and its all the more impressive because you drafted the plans as well!  I'll keep looking in and learning.

[AON]

Thank you Jason.  Very kind words considering how little I think I've done to date. 

 

I seem to be following the current and going in big circles.

I hope to break out of this pattern soon.

 

At this moment my floating shelf needs another coat of poly, my car cost me dearly (needed new rear brake pads and discs), and my latest plot of a figure head (version 11) is colourized and taped to the wall in front of me so I might ponder on it a bit.

 

[SJSoane]

Hi Alan,

 

Congratulations on retirement! More time for yourself, but less sand in the hourglass of life. That keeps me very motivated, although I am shocked at how time flies by. A friend defined retirement as taking all day to do something that only took you an hour when you worked....

 

Mark

[AON]

Hour glass???

I am trying to think of it as... I've got enough time left to become an expert in a new career... but what shall it be?

[BANYAN]

Congrats on your retirement Alan.  You may be swimming in circles at the moment but I am sure the eddies are taking you in the right direction. 

 

cheers

 

Pat 

[cog]

Retirement ...? You just entered the most busy time of your life, at least, that is what all the retirees make me believe!!! Enjoy and make the most of it.

[AON]

Mounted my floating shelf. Perfect height and matches the desk almost perfectly. The shelf is now out of the shipyard so I can get back to my frames tomorrow.

        

 

Completed my 13th version of my figurehead sketch. Pegasus is smaller and the body has been arched and rotated to pull the head closer to alignment inside the nose of the bobstay piece.  I stole Druxey's hind leg (the sketch off his horse!  I wouldn't want to be responsible for him being legless) and arm/spear arrangement.  The wings are much smaller.  Bellerophon is out of scale with Pegasus but he likely should be the predominate figure.  The flying portion of the cloak (scarf) is gone but I feel a wrapped version will appear on the actual figure. I believe I will go with this for now.

My wife keeps asking me if I feel retired yet.  I have no idea what that should feel like... I suppose that means I was ready.

[Jack H]

Hi  Alan O'Neill

I think it is necessary for you to consider the position of ...,so maybe you have to use the  full side view of bow?

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by hjx

[AON]

I should have thought of that!

I will take a photo off the original plan and insert it.

[druxey]

Ahem. This consideration was already suggested earlier and hjx is absolutely correct!

[AON]

[AON]

Okay....

inserted the JPEG image of the actual NMM plan and traced it, then scaled it to fit my build scale.

Manipulated the figure head items.

Here are the results.

I added dual dimensions (both imperial feet-inches): actual ship size versus my model size.

The model size is quite small.

[druxey]

Starting to look more plausible, Alan! I did see an image somewhere of Bellerophon where he is seated forward (as you have him) and Pegasus' wings are placed aft of his upper legs. If you are interested in more feedback, PM me. Otherwise I'll shut up now.

[AON]

David, I will always be interested in any and all comments, suggestions and help.  As you know I might circle around a bit before I agree or follow what was actually the best advice.  I call this my learning curve. It is steep and mostly my own doing.

I have about 20 different images of Bellerophon and Pegasus together and about 17 of Pegasus alone.  One has Bellerophon and a wingless Pegasus which in my mind is more believable as the wings represent speed and so do not have to be factual... but then there is the beast to contend with.

Of all of these images I've collected only one has the wings behind Bellerophon's legs and I am not a fan of how it looks but I imagine it may have kept his legs from getting beaten and chafed.

 

Here it is...

If you have a different one please send it over!

 

 

[mtaylor]

Alan,  are all those images of the figurehead reconstructions?   I was lead to believe from David Cordingly's book that there wasn't any contemporary paintings that had it visible.

[AON]

Good evening Mark,

I understand that there are no images of the original first figurehead on the first HMS Bellerophon.

I could only find a short simple description of it.

It, the very first, was damaged early in her career (7 years) and was replaced with a figure of only Bellerophon of which only the head remains at the Museum because the remainder was rotten and or partially destroyed as the hulk "Captivity" was being broken up. 

When replace in 1793, it was a time when the Naval Board was starting to cut spending and figureheads were getting hit so a simplified figurehead makes sense.

I can find no image/sketch/painting of the very first or any full image/sketch/painting of any replacement on the internet or books I have access to.  There is only a photograph of the head on display at the museum.

Having said that, I also imagine the head in the museum might not be the second figurehead head but possibly a third as she had 30 years service,  and had been in a number of notable battles prior to becoming a prison hulk.  But of course I cannot substantiate this.

I've read NMM has numerous original sketches of figureheads made for board approval prior to the carvers being contracted to work on them but they are not sorted, filed or catalogued as they are considered poorly made sketches... not worth the effort I suppose.

 

So the sketches I've created are my interpretation of the description: "Before it was damaged the figurehead represented Bellerophon as a nude figure draped in a red cloak riding Pegasus, his right arm raised, holding a javelin. The horse’s wings were spread." Source: NMM.

I have also read that they were all basically painted white, with very little colour.  So from the description I imagine only the cloak was red, Bellerophon, Pegasus and the spear were white.  Possibly the javelin (spear) was black(?).

Edited March 17, 2018 by AON

[druxey]

The spear would have been of metal: wood would not have lasted long under seagoing conditions.

 

I don't have the image I remember seeing somewhere with the wings aft of the legs. BTW, I'm Druxey, not David!

[AON]

Sorry about that Druxey.

I've been e-mailing and texting and tweeting all day and I got mixed up.

 

[Jack H]

1 hour ago, AON said:

Before it was damaged the figurehead represented Bellerophon as a nude figure draped in a red cloak riding Pegasus, his right arm raised, holding a javelin. The horse’s wings were spread." Source: NMM.

If a lack of historical pictures or objects, the description of historical documents is a credible way.

 

It's undeniable that the reference picture you sent is very spectacular,but if without the description from NMM, I'm more confident that the figurehead would not be so complicated-except 1st rate or XXX royal .Because of the evolution from 17th to 19th Century,the battleship became more and more concise on sculptures.And it's rarely seen that the limbs will excessive unfold-wing and horse's hoof .It is foreseeable that it will be a beautiful and spectacular figurehead,even I have an impulse to make it.

[dvm27]

Alan, from Figureheads of the Royal Navy, by David Pulvertaft. "Her figurehead was described as the naked figure of the young Greek hero, Bellerophon, riding bareback on the rearing winged horse, Pegasus, wearing a golden helmet with white plumes and a short red cloak flying back from his shoulders." (Citation Edward Fraser, Bellerophon, The Bravest of the Brave,  Wells Gardner, Darton and Co, 1909).

 

Didn't know if you have the above reference but thought I'd mention it just in case. So the wings were spread and rearing

[AON]

No I have not seen this.

Thank you very much.