US Brig Syren by Shazmira - Model Shipways - 1:64

[Shazmira]

Stupid questions time. I have moved on and thinned my bulkheads per the instructions. In reading the instructions it tells me to place my first bulwark plank and to maintain the proper camber of the deck while doing so. I had to look up the word camber and I understand it to be an angle. But does anyone have a photo of this inner bulkhead plank which shows the angle to the deck? I can't seem to wrap my head around it correctly and visualize what this should like.

[mtaylor]

Camber or sheer, Robbyn?   Camber is the curve of the deck from side to side.  The sheer is the curve from fore to aft.   I'm thinking the instructions mean sheer.   You might ask some of the other Syren builders.... 

[Shazmira]

Nope it specifically says camber. I want to lay the first inner bulkhead plank

[mtaylor]

Weird... I have no idea why the deck "camber" would matter then.  There's a waterway, right?  I'm thinking they meant the sheer because that curve will dictate how the bulwark planking runs.   I looked at Dubz build (bulwark planking starts on page 5) and it looks like his planking follows he sheer of the deck..  Same for Sal's (again page 5).  <scratches head><shrugs>  

[Burroak]

Shaz you might ask Chuck since he wrote the practicum. Hope this helps

 

Greg H.

[trippwj]

Even with a waterway, there would be a camber to the deck beams (and then to the planks). At this scale, it would be slight but a bevel on the lower edge of bulwark planks would accomodate it (take a little off the inner edge at the bottom to align with deck camber).

 

On the other hand, the sheer (fore and aft) would be more challenging to accomodate.

[_SalD_]

Robbyn,  I believe this is the paragraph you are referring to.

 

 

You only need to be concern with this if you don't have the 3/16" clearance between the top of the bulkheads and the gun port sills.  If you have less than 3/16" you need to sand down the tops of the bulkheads so the first plank will fit. When sanding just make sure you maintain the camber of the deck along the bulkheads from side to side, you don't want to just sand down the ends of the bulkheads because the deck won't lay right.  .  Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

Ah...that explains it... Sal, you are the man!!!

[Shazmira]

Thank you Sal! I guess I just needed to keep reading ahead and then it would have made sense.

Wayne, angling the edge at the deck is what I was thinking too, and I will have to do that, as the deck is curved as shown above in Sal's picture.

[Shazmira]

Progress has been made. I completed the planking of the inside of the bulwarks, and constructed, attached and painted my cap rails.

 

 

 

Then I attempted to move on to the next step which is to put in my margin plank, then lay the planks on the deck. Well....that is on hold, as I discovered the two laser cut pieces I used for the bow of my cap rail were supposed to be the margin planks at the bow. I attempted to use the cut outs as a template and cut them from some spare wood I had laying around, but I ran into all kinds of problems. If I used wood the proper thickness, then because the curve often goes against the grain, my pieces kept breaking. So I broke down and contacted Model Expo for a replacement sheet for those parts. Now I am waiting, waiting, waiting. lol

 

While I am waiting, I built the jig for stamping my copper according to Chuck's included plans. The jig itself was quite easy to build, the stamps however are proving more difficult. I made them, drilled the tiny little holes into which I dropped nails, but then of course when cutting the nails it was impossible to get them all to the same length. No problem thought I, I just used a metal file to bring them all to the same height.

However, when putting them to actual use, the imprint I am getting on the copper tape, is not very clear at all. I have never done coppering before, so I am not sure if it is my stamps, or my technique. How in the world do you get a nice clear "stamp" onto the copper tape?

The other question I have, is in the real world, this would have been done with plates (which have edges). When using the copper tape, how do you you make it look as if it is individual plates?

Any suggestions on coppering are wlecome!

 

[_SalD_]

Robbyn,

 

I had to slowly giggle my stamp back & forth and side to side as I pressed down to get a good impression on the tape.  I didn't hit the stamp with a hammer either like in the instructions but just pressed it down with my fingers.

 

I'm not sure I fully understand your last question but you do need to cut the tape into individual plates after you stamp them, they're about 3/4" long.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8410-us-brig-syren-by-sald-–-model-shipways/?p=300394

[Shazmira]

You understood my last question perfectly. I was not aware I had to cut the tape into small plates after stamping (so yes, I am in idiot). That thought actually occurred to me during the middle of the night and I woke up and went DOH.

I did try the pressing and rocking method as well, and got almost no imprint at all. I feel like my nails are too blunt, and as they are so close together in that tiny little space I do not have a file thin enough to try to "sharpen" them a it.

When I struck with a hammer, it felt like the stamp was "jumping" slightly and the results look that way as well, as some of the "rivets" appear double struck, you know what I mean, just a hair off on the second strike.

After I posted this I read through all the posts on coppering I could find in the "How Too" forum. I am thinking I will hobble my way into the basement today and go through my grandmas old sewing kit and see if I can find her old ponce wheel. I know using this will not leave the proper pattern behind, but I beleive it will be better than leaving the plates blank, as the instructions also suggest

[_SalD_]

I've never used one but I think the ponce wheel would be a good alternative.  And I think we've all had those moments, I know I have, where after you post something you slam the heel of your hand into your forehead and say 'what an idiot'.   

[dgbot]

I have seen this stamping done using a hard roller on the tape.  This technique worked.  I have also seen one modeler make a small press to get the pattern he wanted.  Unfortunately I was not able to take any photos.  It also depends on the scale you are working at.  Once your model is in a case will they be seen?

David B

[Shazmira]

I need serious help with the copper plaiting, see my plea for help http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/12838-copper-plating-help/ here, thanks.

[Ryland Craze]

Shaz,

​

​Check out Ken's (xken) USS Constitution build.  He is using pounce wheels to imprint his copper plates.  Here is a link to his build log.  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11935-uss-constitution-by-xken-model-shipways-scale-1768/page-9

 

Good luck on your coppering process.

 

 

[GaryKap]

Robbyn -

I am also building the SYREN and I would guess that you and I are at roughly the same skill level.  I recently completed the copper plating and am very pleased with the result.  It is one of the FEW times where I did as good as any of the other Syren posts here.  But I did things a bit differently.  To construct the stamps, I used the short brass nails with heads that are supplied with the kit.  I photocopied page 33 from the instructions and glued the "actual size plates" template to my wood block, drilling a hole at each black dot.  I then pushed a nail into each hole, with the heads all sticking out at the same level.  

 

When embossing the copper tape, I gave the block two good taps with a hammer.  BUT instead of cutting the copper strip into individual plates, I simply creased the tape where the ends of each plate would be.  A dull knife works for this - crease but do not cut.  I then worked with embossed copper strips that were typically from one to almost two feet long, removing the wax backing as I applied the copper to the hull.  I found that this resulted in a good clean even row of plates.  Also, this eliminated the problem with edges of the plates curling up that some build logs report.  You also need to know that the kit supplies much more copper tape than you actually need ( I worried about this).  So if a strip does not turn out well, you can easily re-do it without worrying about running out of copper tape.

 

I hope this helps.  If I can do it, so can you.  There is more than one "right" way to do the copper plates!

 

<<Gary>>

[Shazmira]

Do you have a build log Gary, with pictures of this process?

[GaryKap]

Hi Robbyn -

 

No, I did not start a build log for my SYREN.  One of my inspirations for my coppering method was the excellent instruction sheet on copper sheathing by  Gene Bodnar in which he uses strips:  

 

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/CopperSheathing.pdf

 

He also uses a pounce wheel.  I had success with the stamp method that Chuck describes in his Instruction Manual, so I went with that.  You can find pounce wheels on eBay if you decide to go that route.

 

<<Gary>>

[Shazmira]

Thank you Gary, I had seen that particular pdf. I did order a set of pounce wheels as well, as the stamps I made gave me blurry results on my tiles. I keep finding all sorts of U-tube videos and the likes, but they all lack what exactly I am looking for. Even the logs on here show me the keep area very well, but none I have seen show me how to achieve the curve sweep of tiles up the bow, which is where I am having the most issues. I can't seem to get my lines to curve naturally, either in going row by row, or using the brick method.

[Fam]

My personal experience, if this can help, starts here and continues in the following posts:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8675-le-colibri-by-fam-french-brick-de-24-scale-148-1808-pob/page-5#entry365548

 

Cheers

Fam

Edited February 22, 2016 by Fam

[Shazmira]

Perfect Fam, that was showing me better how to get the flat retangular plates to follow the curvature. Much clearer now, thank you!

[Shazmira]

 

So since I have this full sized coppering plan, I was thinking I could make copies and use it as a template. I could then cut my strips of copper to fit each of the rows shown on the plan, even those which narrow down to a point. Would this be a more accurate way to place the copper?

[mtaylor]

Uh, Robbyn.. I like the idea but don't copy what's on the plans with the copper.  The plans are flat and your hull is curved.  Line off the hull per the plans (much like spiling) and work the copper that way.  If you'll go to the Victory and Contitution sites and look at the copper, you'll see they are really "even" and straight. The copper has to be fitted due to the curve of the hull.

[_SalD_]

Like Mark said Robbyn using a 2D drawing for a 3D object won't work too well.  And the pointy plates are really not that pointy, they appear that way but it's because they are covered by the dressing belt, the last row of plates,

[Shazmira]

Well Crap! Here I thought I had a good idea...another "DOH" moment I guess. But thanks guys for pointing out the 2D would not transfer correctly to 3D. Guess I will just have to wait for my new Pounce wheels to come in, and start this process again. Really wish just once, I could get a new technique down correctly on the first try instead of tearing things out and repeating, 3 or 4 times until I get it where I can live with it. I know, I know, practice makes perfect right. Problem is my build time is so very limited right now, it is just frustrating as hell to make no progress whatsoever in 3 weeks of trying! 

[Fam]

Perfect Fam, that was showing me better how to get the flat retangular plates to follow the curvature. Much clearer now, thank you!

Shaz

sorry but I forgot a small but significant detail: French and British/US navies had different techniques to lay the copper tiles rows ... be careful to use the correct one!

Bye

Fam

[gjdale]

Just think of it as getting to enjoy the process 3 or 4 times Robbyn - not nearly as frustrating that way. And remember, it's not a race and we're a pretty patient bunch of spectators.

[src]

Robbyn, I wish I could help you with the copper but I havent done any coppering yet. I feel your pain with minimal build time, other than a couple of hours last Saturday I have barely touched my build since early December.

Hang in there you'll get it in the end, I dont know about you but I have a greater sense of accomplishment when I finish something I worked really hard to complete/master vs something that just fell together. Like Grant said "We are all a patient bunch here." Besides, this is fun remember?

Sam

[mtaylor]

I thought re-do's were part of modelshipbuilding?  Like sort of mandatory..        I feel your pain and understand it, though.