HMS Pegasus by Landlubber Mike - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks for the reminder SpyGlass. Before gluing, I do plan to cut the rabbet, sand the bearding line, and add the mounting points  

 

For the bulkhead extensions, don't the ones on the upper deck serve as supports for the beams for the quarterdeck and forecastle?  

[Landlubber Mike]

Yeah, I was thinking that facing them might be the best option.  What a pain though

[Martin W]

Hi Mike --- I've been wondering about what to do with those extensions as well.  The ones in the waste do come out after you put the gunport strip on.  The ones supporting the q-deck and forecastle pose a different problem and a challenge to anyone thinking about kit-bashing.  I guess you could just cut them and replace them, but the planking would -- I believe -- still go between the bulkheads, not covering over them.  To run planking over them would alter the dimensions of the deck, making it even more crowded than it already it.  The stern extensions also pose a problem, mostly in that they're flimsy, and in opening up the cabin I've made them even flimsier.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

PS -- On the topic of the kit's wood, I'd say it's definitely adequate, and even better than the wood that came with my Rattlesnake.  But I do think boxwood is better looking.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Martin W

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Martin,

 

Yes, the extensions are going to be a pain.  I agree that the planking goes between the bulkheads and doesn't cover them.  I'm thinking that it might be easier to cut the extensions out now and install new ones, rather than wait until later.  Are you going to replace yours?

 

Boxwood is very nice  Maybe I'll go with pear as the wood of choice on the Unicorn, and boxwood for this build.  The only issue is that boxwood doesn't take stain very well, so I would probably need to use pear for the black items.

[aliluke]

This painting with wood stuff is starting to sound really complicated . I think I'm feeling better about painting with paint!

 

I think the bulkhead extensions are pretty critical to getting the gun port pattern properly fixed. I had a look at my hull - the extension at the fore end of the QD and the aft end of forecastle are highly visible but the rest of those under the upper decks are virtually invisible. I think you could get away with leaving these ones in place as they are and just stain them. Perhaps dry fit those upper decks and have a look - replacing them isn't going to be easy. Also I faced the breast beams on the QD and forecastle with boxwood + mouldings which reduces the painted effect and is very easy to do but it does make the upper decks slightly longer by about 2mm. The kit supplied beams are now completely invisible.

 

Ironically my stem and rudder are quite dark and, to closer match the boxwood, I would've preferred blonde. A pity we can't swap.

[Landlubber Mike]

You're right Alistair.  It all sounds great in concept, but then you start realizing the execution is a lot more complicated 

 

That's for checking on the extensions for me.  Replacing the pair sounds a lot more doable than replacing two dozen or so  

 

I'm happy to swap, but it might be a little more tricky for you

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Mike, I only removed the three waist extensions once the outer planking had been completed. I did partly cut thro' the pieces from outboard before planking and I added a strip of double sided tape to the outer face of the extension pieces.

 

With the aid of a veneer saw it was then easy to remove them cleanly and without splintering.

 

I left the final deck planking runs until this had been done.

Veneer saws are a very handy tool for this job.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[Landlubber Mike]

B.E., thanks for this information.  I considered pre-cutting the extensions from the outside (probably, subconsciously remembering it from reading your build log), and am glad to see it works.  

 

That veneer saw is really cool.  I was thinking of using a dremel, but the saw looks like a much safer bet. 

 

Thanks!

[Landlubber Mike]

In my quest to avoid using paint, I spent a little time experimenting with some black stains and dye stains that I had samples of - Varathane 'Ebony', General Finishes 'Black" stain, and General Finishes 'Ebony' dye stain.  I also have a small amount of Fieblings Leather dye, though we all know that works well to dye pear so I didn't test it.  It's always hard to accurately get the full effect of color on a digital picture, but here is a picture of the test - the big board is plywood, the small pieces are scrap pear, the longer dowel is from the Corel Unicorn kit (I think beech) and the smaller dowel is from the Pegasus kit (ramin).  I didn't bother to test the Varathane on the smaller dowel as it didnt have as much penetration as you can see.

 

 

The results of just trying one coat are interesting.  The GF black stain worked the best - very deep black that looked like the wood had been painted.  The Varathane and the GF dye stain were more like your typical stain effect, where it mostly highlighted the grain.  I would have thought that the GF dye stain would be the best, as GF markets the dye stains as having deeper penetration.  Maybe I needed to mix it more, I'm not sure.

 

I really like the GF black stain - you end up with a deep painted look, yet the wood texture is not hidden under a layer of paint.  Just the look I'm after.  

 

In any event, I thought I would share in case others are interested in a black look without using paint.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- that's a valuable experiment.  Two questions:  where did you get the GF stains, and have you seen them in brown? (I know, this sounds like I'm in a shoe store )  As I mentioned a while back, I would really like something to put on the plywood bulkheads, to make them look less like ply.  If I can't find anything, I'll follow Alistair's strategy of covering them with boxwood.  But those dyes do look interesting.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Hi Martin, 

 

I believe that I bought the General Finishes stains from Woodcraft (online).  They have lots of different shades, as you can see here:

 

http://generalfinishes.com/retail-wood-finishing-products

 

 

My best success for the black was using the "stain", rather than the "dye stain."  Maybe I needed to stir the dye stain a little more.  They have some interesting colors for ship building.  For example, they have a yellow that seems like it could work nicely as a yellow ochre replacement.  The great thing about using stains is that you don't get that painted on texture.  Some people thin down paints and paint 20-30 coats, but I'd rather put on one or two coats of stain and be done.

 

I'm not sure what I want to do with the bulkheads yet.  The downside of stains is that you don't get an even color across different wood types.  I'm thinking of removing the bulkhead extensions, and replacing them with stained wood of the same type that I will use for my bulwark planking and cannon carriages.  Still thinking about whether to do that before the hull planking, or after it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Martin W]

Thanks for the info, Mike.  There happens to be a Woodcraft store sort of close by, so I'll go check out their stains.

 

I removed the bulkhead extensions for my Rattlesnake -- not so much because I knew what I was doing as because I was following the practicum.  In the end it made for a nice appearance, but that  bashing required replacing a series of other bits & pieces, like the false QD deck.  For my Fly, I'm trying to keep to a kind of golden mean of making use of the good kit parts, but making my own if I can really do better -- and if it seems like it would be fun.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

The golden mean sounds like a good one.  I'm trying to use as much of the kit as possible too, but it seems like I find more stuff to replace.  I just placed an order with Jeff at Hobbymill for the Pegasus and for some supplemental wood for my Unicorn, and the cost does add up (thankfully, I've paid significantly below retail for these kits).  I think once I finish the kits on my shelf, I'm going to move towards buying good plans and go into scratch building.  My Unicorn is almost looking like a complete scratch build outside of using the kit bulkheads 

[Martin W]

Mike -- like you, I got my kit below retail, actually at about half price.  It was a deal offered by MSW itself:  a basic donation to the site got the kit.  Voila.   A scratch build is a dream for me, though pretty far off, as I'm still trying to master -- or maybe I should say just learn -- the essential skills.  When I look at the logs in the Scratch Build category, oh, my mouth waters.

 

Cheers.

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Small update on where I am now, which mostly involved preparation of the main keel.

 

 

I carved the rabbet and sanded the bearding line.  The MDF is interesting to work with - it was very easy to chisel the rabbet and bearding line, as the layers just flake off with little effort.  Sanding on the other hand seems much more difficult than if you were to sand plywood.  That should make fairing the bulkheads a real pain - I'll probably start with a sanding block, but I have a feeling that I will end up resorting to the Dremel or other power sanding tools. 

 

I also epoxied nuts into the hull for the pedestals.  I'm using two-inch #6 machine screws, which seem to work very nicely with the brass pedestals I bought from Model Expo.  Installing the nuts was actually easier than I expected.  The only issue that I ran into is that I goofed in installing them before I added the keel pieces.  It would have been a lot easier to drill the hole in one shot, but instead, I had to guess where the line was, and then ream the hole a little larger so that the screw had a clear path to the nut.  All in all, it wasn't that difficult though.

 

You'll see that I installed the stem and keel pieces at this time.  I went back and forth on whether to install them now or wait until after the first or second planking, but I thought that fitting them at this stage would make it much easier to ensure that the pieces were perfectly centered on the main keel.  I also decided to go with a black stem on this build, and used the General Finishes black stain that I tested earlier.  I was am happy with how it looks - a deep black, yet it doesn't have the "plastic-y" feel of a painted surface.  It also is easier to apply than paint, where I just used a piece of an old t-shirt to apply the stain and then wipe off the excess.  I did two coats, but I probably could have gotten away with one.

 

It's probably hard to see in the picture, but I have to add some shim pieces to the keel at the two connecting joints.  The pieces fit nicely together, but there was a slight gap.  I thought it would be a stronger bond to clamp the pieces at the joints, but now there is a very slight dip along the bottom of the keel at the joint.  So, I'll glue a small piece at the joint and sand the keel to a straight line.

 

I'm still debating the timing and general approach to replacing the visible bulkhead extensions with other wood.  I'm itching to glue the buikheads to the keel now, but it probably is easier to take care of replacing the extensions now, while the bulkheads are off the model.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

Quick question - the kit uses laser cut parts.  I've seen some logs where the builder sands off the charred areas for the purpose of ensuring a stronger glue bond.  Is that necessary?  I sanded off the char on the pieces I glue to the keel thus far, but maybe I should have tested gluing them without sanding.

 

Interesting thing is that it smells like burning wood as you sand off the char.

[vths]

Yep, it is highly recommended. It does not have to be absolutely clear, though. 

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks guys.  I didn't sand the char fully through, but it seemed to have been fine just taking off most of it.

 

Spyglass, that's an interesting approach on installing the stem later in the build.  I'll have to think about that one for my next one.  On the holding blocks, my nuts are wider than the 5mm keel, so if I added blocks on either side I would likely have to carve a groove into them.  The nuts are really epoxied in - I first added epoxy to the side and bottom of the nuts, and then once they were glued in tight, I added epoxy along the exterior to further seal them in.  I'm using the same stuff (Gorilla Glue 5 min epoxy) on some gardening equipment, and despite all the abuse, the epoxied parts are not going anywhere.  That being said, rather than putting blocks on the sides of the nut, I was thinking about small blocks of wood above the nut inside the slot on either side of the screw path.  That would help restrain the nuts from popping up, which I think is more likely than the nuts popping from side to side.

[Beef Wellington]

Spyglass, that's an interesting approach on installing the stem later in the build.  I'll have to think about that one for my next one. 

 

Mike, thats the approach I'm hoping to take on 'Jason', I'm hoping it will allow a cleaner angle between the stem and the hull, but time will tell.  Part of that decision was also was that I don't have my replacement wood yet but want to move forward.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Beef Wellington

[Landlubber Mike]

Mike, thats the approach I'm hoping to take on 'Jason', I'm hoping it will allow a cleaner angle between the stem and the hull, but time will tell.  Part of that decision was also was that I don't have my replacement wood yet but want to move forward.

 

I thought about doing it that way for that reason as well, and if I remember correctly, Bob Hunt's practicum recommends installing the stem after the first planking is installed.  It didn't seem to make much difference to me if I installed the stem before the second planking or before the first, so I just went with installing it now.  Plus, I wanted to get the keel pieces attached to fix the nuts in the main keel, and it just seemed more logical to add the stem so that the keel pieces were positioned correctly.

 

I'm hoping the rabbet helps make for a clean joint between the planking and the stem, but we'll see.  On my Badger I had a heck of a time with the planking at the stem, but I hadn't cut a rabbet nor had I pre-shaped the planks.  This time I plan to pre-shape the planks which should help.  

[Landlubber Mike]

Anything which ensures the nuts dont shift or turn - my nuts were thicker than the keel too - so i created a teeny notch in the blocks I placed by the simple expedient of clamping a large G clamp over the blocks both sides which produced exact fitting depressions !

 

Oh at the danger of telling granny how to suck eggs - you did keep a bolt in the nut and keep turning it as it set? - I had the dificulty once when i didnt do that and spent a lot of effort getting the adhesive out of the threads !

 

Couple of advantages of late placing of the stem.  First - obvious protection against sanding carelessness. The other is that the first planking curves are easier to get right if you can take the fore end of the strip right round to the other side. I usually place the stem after the first planking. 

 

The later the stern post goes in the better - as you sand the second planking you can keep offering the post up to check the plank lie against it but keep removing it to keep it protected from that really awkward sanding angle there.

 

Thanks Spyglass - I'll add some blocks which should help.  

 

Thanks for the tip on the threads.  I did do that when setting the nuts, and they turn freely thankfully.  I'm also planning on adding the stern post after the second planking.  For the stem, using long planking pieces I thought it would be easier to start by setting the planks into the rabbet, then work them around the hull, and filing off the excess after the second planking.  It didn't seem necessary to have the planks extend and get filed back at the stem as well if you have a rabbet, but I'll find out soon whether that was a good idea 

[Landlubber Mike]

I'm back in the shipyard after a little hiatus - had an out of town vacation/family visit (where I got to slip in a quick trip to Mystic Seaport to see the Charles Morgan), and then needed some time to recover from my family 

 

Last I left off, I was trying to figure out the bulwark frame extensions and how to "paint them with wood."  After a lot of thought, I came up with two possible approaches.  The first was to create new bulkhead extensions out of the new wood, and glue them in place.  The second was to create new extensions, but rather than replace the original extensions, I would cut a slot into the new extensions, thin down the original extensions, and then slide the new extension over the original like a sleeve.  

 

The second seemed to add a bit of work, and I wondered about the structural integrity of having the original extension thinned down, so I went with the first option.  Using my scroll saw, I cut out the original extensions along with a piece from the body of the bulkhead, and used that piece to mark out the replacement extension on the new wood.  After gluing on the new extensions, I went ahead and glued pieces of 3mm plywood on either side of the new wood.  I figured that will give the new extensions added strength, as I worried that the sanding of the bulkheads and the planking could stress the glue joint.  It seems pretty locked in now.  I'll need to do a little touch up sanding, but otherwise, that's all that there was to the process.  It takes a while, but I managed to knock out three bulkheads tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully this works out. The replacement wood that I'm using is Redheart from Jeff at Hobbymill - it's a really easy wood to work with, and reminds me a lot of Jeff's pear.    The wood is very tightly grained and machines well, but does have dark streaks going through it.  The streaks don't bother me, and I actually really like the look of it as a replacement for painting the bulwarks red ochre.  I think after it is oiled or otherwise finished, it will give off a more textured look than if I had painted it - exactly why I'm trying to avoid paint in the first place.

 

Unfortunately, this means I'll have to scratch the gun carriages as well.  

 

 

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

Those extensions will look a lot better than the original on the completed model.

 

Have you considered drilling a couple of holes through the new extensions in to the original and then use some doweling or brass rod to pin it? The holes will be blind and once the planking is done the end of the doweling will be covered and locked in place for all time. The extensions will not be able to move up, down or side to side locked this way.

[aliluke]

Hi Mike

This is very passionate work. I guess these are trials...bulkhead extension 6 is removed from my memory, bulkhead 5 might go as well - can't remember. Anyway I enjoy your commitment to paint without paint and I'm very intrigued to see how your approach unfolds. Paint is my friend for this complex build!

[jwvolz]

Great idea Mike!

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks very much guys!

 

Ian, I considered using the pin method, but I think adding the plywood blocks on either side should hold everything together better.  I found on my Badger that some of the pinned parts that required a lot of handling (like the spars), ended up loosening over time.  To answer your question though, I think properly done, the pin method could work well.

 

Alistair, some might say passionate, most would probably say masochistic   I think you're right about the bulkhead extensions in the waist area, argh!  I could have sworn that I saw some models with those extensions intact, but in looking at the instructions again, it appears that I was mistaken.  Of course, those were the three bulkheads that I started with last night (as they were easier).  I think at the upper deck level, only the extensions serving as supports for the quarterdeck and forecastle deck should remain.  Oh well, I got a little practice in at least before doing the harder ones.    

 

The other mistake I made is in adding the plywood supports now before the bulkheads were secured to the keel.  There is a 5mm thick frame that supports the upper deck that has to be inserted down on top of the bulkheads.  Easy fix in that all I need to do is sand the plywood off, but another consequence of not thinking ahead 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[Martin W]

Mike -- that's a very intriguing bash.  Even if you did do the waist extensions, at least you know what the procedure is, and that it should work.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[mtaylor]

Mike, a great idea and well-executed.  Since they have to come off, I guess you can call this part "testing". 

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks for all the support.  I wonder how all this "painting with wood" is going to work out in the end, but I'm a fairly stubborn person that likes a challenge, so I think I'm going to see this through to the end . . . .    

 

I've made a little more progress this week.  I finished the bulkhead extensions, and did the quarterdeck and forecastle deck beams as well.  I'm sure most of these items won't be visible once the two decks are added, but I figured I would go ahead and practice creating the parts, to give me a little bit of extra experience before cutting the important pieces which will be visible at bulkheads 4 and 8 (essentially, the rear of the forecastle and front of the quarterdeck, respectively).  They will need some very light touch-up sanding, but otherwise they are in pretty good shape I think.  

 

 

 

The whole process wasn't too bad actually - Jeff's redheart is a pleasure to work with.  I think I'm going to use redheart on my Lyme build as well.  It will be a little tricky given that the bulkheads are already glued to the keel on that model, but I think I should be able to manage.  One interesting thing was thinking about how I wanted the grain to run on these pieces.  I didn't pay much attention to that when doing the first three extensions at the waist that will be ultimately removed anyway.  But, I thought that if the grain of the bulwark planking ran from stem to stern, then it might look a little odd if the grain on the extensions ran perpendicularly.  So, I went ahead and made the extensions and the deck support beams all run horizontally.  In the end, it probably doesn't matter all that much, but it's probably typical of the things we obsess with in this hobby.

 

You'll see that I also added small blocks to lock the bolts for the pedestals.  I needed to cut a groove into the blocks as the nuts were a bit wider than the 5mm keel, but I think the nuts are now fully locked in.  I also had to taper the rear blocks given the narrowing of the keel at that area.

 

The exciting part now is that I will be able to glue the bulkheads into the keel, and start work on planking the deck and hull.  A slight detour in replacing the bulkhead extensions, but slowly but surely things are moving along.  

Edited September 21, 2014 by Landlubber Mike

[ianmajor]

Mike,

 

Nice work. I think the painting in wood will work well. For me the main thing is, if possible, to use the same batch (of each type) of wood for all of the ship to ensure even colouring.

 

Another point is not to spend an extended period (say 40 years as in my case) in completing the construction so that all the wood ages together - or you end up with an interesting spectrum of colours such as the pine on my ship!