kirill4

Good dy Bill,

My name is Kirill,

I'm from Saint-Petersburg... from that one ,which is in Russian Federstion :)))

there is another way of rigging... it looks more close to that You posted early

you could scroll couple of pages, starting from post #360

https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5418&start=345

Good day Bill,

Yes, this is what I meant ,in general...

To make process easy, easy to adjust individual shroud length, You could use

*piece of carton with drown lines of the shrouds on exact positions.

*On the same piece of carton upper deadeyes could be secured temporary by piece of wire, they need to ge secured at their places as well

*than free end of shroud running purt need to be turned around deadeye and secured.

*in this way each shrouds could be adjusted to the nessasary length and secured - I use CA gel for final fixation and than apply a few turns of very thin tread above place where I used "CA gel"

*when length of all shrouds adjusted in this way, we could remove wire which temporary secured upper deadeyes to the carton sheet and lanyards could be installed 

*other side shrouds could be made in similar way...

*when both side done ,we could made final adjustments of the lanyards and shrouds tensions...

*finaly we could attach ratlines using the same carton with drown positions of ratlines

as soon as galleon deadeye have triangle shape, there is not ness-ry to make" troat seizing" but round seizing only... and free end of the shroud after final fixation ,

will run to the other side of standing prt of the shroud compare to the shroud secuiring in normal way - with troat seizing and round shape deadeye...

there are other methods of securing shrouds exists,

shown by You

when upper deadeyes connected to the preinstalled lower deadeyes by pieces of wire cutted to ness-ry length of lanyards or paper clip

and than running end of the shroud passed around upper deadeye and secured in ness-ry position with troat seizing( in case of round deadeyes) and round seizings...

when upper deadeye is turning in , type of the rope need to be considered - is it cable-laid rope or hawser-laid rope...

on the galleon model we don't need to use sheer pole...

when You will turn in upper deadeye, shroud better to keep in "relaxed " shape and don't upply too much forces during final lanyards adjustments to avoid shrouds twisting and turning under load...

I would like to offer you some other way to make shrouds... I saw it somewhere on the shipmodels sites and than try to use this methid on my model...actually it was very simple  to use it

from post #32

Good day Bill!

How do you plan  to fitt shrouds and stays?

I asked due to your very perfection style of making / painting hull of the model...

I saw a few models of very big scale displaied recently( mostly Wasa's models)...and our colleagues demonstrated some interesting methods of making shrouds...which didn' t make good natural appearance at the end...

frankly speaking I don' t  understand why they used this way of making shrouds ,which is more suitable for the shrouds of models in 1:200 and less scales,but not for such big scales, by my opinion...

In such big scale You could reproduce almost natural way of making shrouds and stays and making ratlines knots... all what just need some patience, couple of tweezers , CA , and paints...

There shroud loops above mast tops need to be made , with seized loop need to be done...

than upper deadeyes need to be installed by using cartoon patern plates  with marked upper desdeyes positions,and upper deadeyes temporary secuerd by thin wire ,shrouds location and ratlines positions need to be drown...and than, just need to make all ness-ry connections of all  components need to be made...

But I saw our colleagues made shrouds complitely assembled on the table and than try to fitt it on the masts.,with cutted off loops :(((

..and final results looks not so good by my opinion...still don't understand why don't try to do the same things ,spend same skills and time ...just do the same job in little bit different way...?

So, what is Your plans regarding rigging? :)))

classic!

there are a few links for various written works and studies devoted to 16-17 ship building... oops,sorry, direct links were already given by Backer

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/Uxt8/b6Lu2ZZKr

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/FwxT/jrM6vVqTq

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/WejJ/SsqeAg8Cg

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/dBCL/7YizAZCFB

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/cdG4/8PiyPcSGZ

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/zybz/mLi9ZgaQC

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/7Jkk/P5EVxgBMA

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/4VWW/ZDKKpXoaM

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/AT9D/RD4f3MQpW

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/qZPN/5pA8oUrho

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/wtWt/df1kKHdKL

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/za1C/j55UJkF7K

Dear Backer,

Thanks for the links!:)))

As we could see there are a few modern things implemented on replica bu authority requests which couldn't be seen on contemporary vessels of that period - steering wheel, foot ropes, some of ratlines made from wood planks...

in that book which I refered early author of the Mayflower replica explained why such modernization were done ...

Fully agree with You! :)))

Good day,

Before repaint ,it better  to be tested on some piece of plastic or back side of the decks plate for example ,using the same paint  as before...

If result will be good, than model could be repainted ... or if there is a risk to destroy painted , just leave it without repaint...

also , first may be need to paint all surface by same dark brown color,and to repaint white after?

Good day,

Dear Bill

By my opinion, 

there are two ways,

A

if You making exact model of replica Mayflower II , than bottom part need to painted as You did, as they did it on real replica

B

 if You making just hystorical model of Mayflower , as piligrimm vessel , than 

entire botom part of the hull need to be painted white...

No, not white but let's say white-grayish  ...

- this white -greyish color will simulate color of protecting substance which used in 16-17 centures to protect under water part of the hull against ''sea worms''...

of cause this will be very simplified simulation of protection coating, when model will be painted this white-grayish,

while real underwater coating consisted of several layers of different materials finished with thin wooden planks or even ,more often, lead sheets...

I think creators of  Mayflower II replica did this white color painting for hystoric acuracy only, but real underwater modern protection layer has this red-brown color...

I don't think we need to reproduce it( this two color painting underwater part) on the model...

 And as I know, in this time there it was not ness-ry to draw waterline in modern style yet... just to paint grey-white entire hull till first strake...

detailed and very interesting information about construction Mayflower II  and 17 centure shipbuilding You could find in this book , writen by creator of Mayflower replica

Good day!

Nice painting job, very accurate!

Нave question about under water part color...

Never see before such color scheme for underwater part, white-black? ...as I know in Tudor time under water part  usually covered with a dark, black-brown compound- such color You could see on Antony roll fo example, but later on ,starting from Elizabethuan period , components of this compaund were changed,and color became white-greish color... on the model it could be shown as white ( with add of grey and ochra color...)

This combination of both colors looks very unusual...

Why did You use such two colors scheme?

Dear friends,

To All of you,

Merry Xmas and happy New Year !!! 

some considerations about rigging coloring... in the begining, when I didn't know too much ... I did it  paint, treads, by  mix of acrylic paints and acrylic varnish... I used syntetic treads " gutermann" without furs... but this acrylic coat is not too resistant stays on treads, and need to be restored again and again after intensive manipulations with rigging trough the blocks...

But later on I 've found more interesting technique to use oil artistic painta and oil for coloring model rigging 

how it looks like You could see on D.Shevelev models/// https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=71120

posts 284 -286

https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=71037&start=270

And... 

if You don't know yet... there is one more recent recearch made by our collegae,reconstruction based oj Aker/s  ideas

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t6619f952-Alternative-Rekonstruktion-der-GOLDEN-HIND.html

I could guess it will be interesting for them of us...who interesting in galleon models :)))

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t6619f952-Alternative-Rekonstruktion-der-GOLDEN-HIND-11.html

Yes!!! Agree!!

And there is one more briliant book abt May Flower  ,in my opinion, of couse ... may be, not only my

Good day,

Fully agree with that !

Need to make some precautions to avoid bend them...!!!

when I was busy with standing rigging I tried don't apply tension at all, or did it:

*as minimum as possible just sufficient to keep lines of stays and shrouds strait but no more.

I used preliminary painted treads by mix of acrylic paints and varnish...

but later on I knew that much better to paint treads by mix of  artistic paints and artistic oil...

sometimes it was very usefull to paint treads such as crowsfeet of mizzen lifts for example, after installation -this way it will be much easy to make them strait and aplly paint after final fixation...

*some stays(mizen and bonaventure masts and some top masts stays) I fitted at place in reverse order for convenience- started to fitt them from lower stay parts and complete installation and final stay tension adjustment on the mast top...

  in my version of galleon stays it was possible due to I didn't use stays mouse but imitation of seized or spliced eyes...

*all running rigging I try to show slacked wherever possible.

To have rope making machine - great idea !!!

treads will looks more realistic and You will have all rope sizes You need on your model !!!

some type of rope making machine, of very simple construction,could be made at home even from cartons sheet and pieces of thick steel wire without gears...

there are a few pictures of museum 's Vasa rigging reconstruction - You could see positions of the shrouds and stays loops above masts tops ... more or less similar rigging arrangements could be reproduced on the GH model ... just will be less sails and ropes, but basic remains the same!

7_b rigg rekons.pdf 6_b riggfästen mm.pdf

Dear bosco72,

Thanks for the link!  I see there are more interesting books  available , Thanks!

    Regarding your model, my remarks most probably just about  one of your  "...do I have an eye for detail..."   

in this particular case - details of rigging, I could say, basic rigging details

Actually there are a few basic rules for making correct rigging, there is a certain sequence in rigging which need to be followed.

    I think making rigging according  these rules will be not more complicated(I mean time consuming and manipulations with treads) job than You already did now ,with installed shrouds and stays , in this part which You shown us.

    The only difference will be in corectness, from this point of vew , may be there is sense to start making rigging in correct way strait from begining, don't spend time for irregularities,

irregularities which need to be corrected  later on , on the next model? or they could be learned like first experience and than reproduced on the other models again ? :)))

I understand we make a lot of simplifications in plastic model rigging, but general rigging appearance on the model should be correct by my opinion...at least it should be interesting to make it correct way not less than... accurate assembling or painting for example...:)?

   I remember , before start rigging  my model ( let's say first and only one my model where I tried to understand galleon rigging,how it could be arranged, how should it work...and reproduce my "understandings " in model rigging :)))) I 've spent a few weeks to read R.C. Anderson book(book which I knew a few days before start galleon project), and later on start making my rigging plan on paper follow information page by page from this book, and third stage it was making model rigging...which is continue till present time :)))

 Sorry for that lirics

Back to your model,

I think book of R.C. Anderson will be more suitable for galleon rigging than Mondfeld book which is almost about everything in model making and nessesary information need to be trawled, in this respect Anderson talking more specific about 16-17 rigging.

In my opinion Mondfeld could second source of information in priority...

Oh!:)))

Right here ,this forum 

Good day,

Dear bosco72,

Studing your model pictures I saw You did your standing rigging in some  wrong way...

sorry for that stupid question,may be You did it in purpose or why?

*it looks like You did all shrouds and stays of the same thickness( sizes),normaly they must be different in sizes!

*wrong way of location shrouds loops and stays...normaly it should be  secured above tops plarform,on the mast tops, but You placed them  under top platforms...

   If there is intention to make rigging in more right /correct way, I would like to recommend You to read this easy for reading  books( Anderson and Mondfeld), in this books You could found condenced information practically regarding each important rope of rigging of 16- 17 centure vessel.

   A  few readen pages will serve you very good when You will be busy with  rigging your model.

 There You could find information about purpose and sizes of each important ropes and rigs of the old fasion vessel as well as tables( in Mondfeld book) with rope sizes in proportions to rigs/or main mast dimension/ diam.

  Below I gave some simplified picture with precalculated rigging rope sizes, calculation based on information from this books.

 There is exell table for automatic calculation ropes sizes of standing rigging as well

Main stay size( diam) calculated in proportion to main mast diam.

0.166 of main mast , all other ropes sizes calculation based on main stay diam.

Wish You all the Best!

Kirill

on the pictures dimensions given in mm

roughly says , they could be used for the your model scale, strait from pictures

standing rigging thickness.xls

14 hours ago, Landlubber Mike said:

Great job!  I hereby nominate your log as the most epic on MSW  

Good day Marc,

Totaly Agree with Mike🙂!!!

This is fantastic project, such deep research of the subject and than brilliant reproduction findings on the model!!!

I deeply admired for your work and this approach to business !

All the best!!!

Kirill

Good day Cpt_Haddock!

Your Vasa looks very artistic!!!

Good job !

Thank You very much Ron for attention and warm comments , I 'm glad You like it :)))

Dear Bill97,

I'm sorry for delay with answer , for some period I didn't have access to the net... this kit is not rare, I saw a few firms did repack of this kit -AOSHIMA- IMAI series Large Sailing Ship No8;No12,

LEE 0886, scale 1/100

even russian Modelist repack it - Моделист 110016 1:100 Spanish Galleon (Испанский Галеон),

in case of difficulties to find it ,than most easiest way to find rare models - wisit Radek site https://www.hismodel.com/articles-category-5 ... sometimes it looks like he has everything I could wish to find( regarding plastic models of sailing vessels) !!! :)))