Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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I've been off doing other things for a while. It's nice to get back to what my family call "boating" (to go along with my workshop which they call "the boat room"). I've made a cover for the hatch. I've kept the planking format I've been using for the deck, to allow air to get below decks so the oarsmen don't all collapse. It's not the same as the "criss-cross" halving joint method you see on the hatches of later ships - I have no evidence at all how such a hatch cover was constructed for a dromon (it's only an assumption it had one at all, otherwise how do you get cargo below). So it's planks with gaps between them, and cross-beams at intervals to support the planks so they don't deform or collapse when someone stands on them. Here's the frame for the hatch itself: And here is the frame for the hatch cover. (The other two bits of wood are for the ladder down to the lower deck.) Took quite a lot of mucking around till it fitted smoothly. Planking at each end. Intermediate planks Cross-beams Cover in place And lying on the deck with the hatch open. I'm just wondering whether I should also do a "border" around the top of the cover; does it look better with these battens around the perimeter? (they're just loose at the moment) Or should I leave it without them as in the pictures above? I'm just a bit concerned that without the perimeter battens it looks a bit too much like the duckboards you get in a sauna. Any suggestions welcome. Steven
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Clotilda, last US slave ship, found
Louie da fly replied to bruce d's topic in Nautical/Naval History
Interesting. If that's a picture of her in the background, she looks really built for speed. Steven -
That's very worthwhile information, Binho. I couldn't remember when this ship was dated to - I remembered there was a Roman vessel in there somewhere, but on looking this one up it turns out to be from the 13th or 14th century, so it's very good not only for Woodrat's model, but for those others of us also interested in ships of this period. An interesting thing in my view is the poop superstructure - the framework doesn't seem to have been squared off at all but appears to be just bits of tree trunk with the bark taken off. I don't think this is just an apparency caused by the accumulation of sediment, because the frames certainly look squared off. Steven
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Deciding on the deck features is a bit of a poser, which I'm currently puzzling over with my own build. No surviving deck = nothing to base the reconstruction on = mostly guesswork. I agree with Mark, though. A partially planked deck would simultaneously show the structure and the finished look of the deck. However, things which are on the centre line of the deck, such as the windlass, might require a different approach. It's looking very good, Dick. Adding the planking has yet again changed the look considerably. Are you going to completely plank one side? Steven
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Yes indeed. I've been there twice. So I've seen the Walls and the Golden Gate and been inside Agia Sophia and I know where the Yenikapi finds were discovered. I hope to go back one day. Lots still to discover that I missed out on before. Steven
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Thanks Mark (Taylor). Interesting point, Mark (Pearse). Unfortunately we'll never know. I think I'll stick with what I believe to be the simplest explanation - the miniaturist made a mistake. But I could be wrong . . . And yes, those faces are very expressive, aren't they? The Madrid Synopsis Historion was illustrated by as many as 7 miniaturists (the academics don't agree on this one) and in my view the one who did both of these pictures was the best of them. Steven
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That's the answer. Now all we need to do is find out what the question is. Steven
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Thanks Patrick and Fabio. Good luck with finding a place to stow the bars. That's not the way I see it. The miniaturist's job was to illustrate clearly what was going on as simply as possible. Introducing a banner with a cross above those known to be Muslims would just cause confusion. I just think he got it wrong. Not in the case of Byzantium. There were quite a decent number of secular histories written about this time, which though they gave lip service to the usual religious formulas, were pretty much simply records of what had happened. They suffer from the usual biases you get in "histories", but these tended to be political rather than religious - depends which faction you belonged to, or which political group. Steven
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The picture in my earlier post represents Thomas the Slav, who was making a bid to overthrow the Emperor and become Emperor himself, negotiating with saracens to get them to join him. Thomas would have had a flag to back up his claim to be Emperor. The banner with the cross on it is almost identical to that flying on the Emperor's own ship, and I think the illustrator who gave the saracens a flag with a cross on it must have been having a senior moment, and put it above the wrong set of horsemen. And then thought "Damn! Got it wrong! If I just pretend it didn't happen, probably nobody will ever notice . . . " Steven
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Thanks for the likes, everyone. Carl, it did cross my mind to make the ship weatherbeaten, like some of the amazing ships we see on this forum. But I'll have to keep that for future models. This one's supposed to be pretty. No, Pat. There's really nothing in any contemporary account or illustration. For heaven's sake, it's only an assumption that the word used in the sources for this thing really means what we think it does. The original Greek word translates as "fastener", or even "brooch". The triangular gussets sound like a good idea in hindsight, but I don't think I'll do anything about it. I think it would all be pretty strong in the real world - please note that each of the straps runs along a wale. The idea I have is that the straps are fastened at relatively short intervals to the wales (probably with nails or long rivets, but I haven't shown any fastenings because I don't think they'd be visible at this scale), and the forces of ramming would be transferred via the straps to the wales, which are among the strongest timbers in the ship. Steven
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Beautiful work, John. This build is a pleasure to follow. I'll have to find an excuse to come up and see the modelmaker's bench in operation in Sydney . . . Steven
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I've attached the "iron" (really cardboard) brackets for the spur and painted them to look like iron. First, a coat of black Then a thin layer of silver to make it look a little more metallic. I thought of doing some rust, but this is the Emperor's ship, and anyway the model represents it in brand spanking new condition. Here are the bars for the windlass all done. Still got to find somewhere to stow them when not in use. I've also found a banner that looks pretty cool. Again, from the Skylitzes Chronicle (mid-late 12th century). This one has a cross on it, known as a cross pommée or pommelée (like a pommel, the knob at the end of a sword hilt, that acts as a counterweight to the blade). This must be where the flag came from for the modern reconstruction painting that Nikiphoros posted earlier, but I notice they changed the pink to red - not manly enough, perhaps?). Still not sure if I'm going to use this one or the one on the ship in an earlier post, where everybody's hair is blowing in the wind . . (thinks: that would be a good name for a song . . .😉) [Edit] Can any native Greek speakers make out what the word is next to the group carrying the banner? It appears to be narakagoi, or perhaps oi rakynoi? (allowing for the 12th century handwriting), but I'm really not sure, particularly about the last few letters. I don't want to use a banner that turns out to be used by someone not Byzantine. [2nd edit] The word turns out to be "sarakenoi" = saracens, so obviously I can't use it. But so, why are muslims using a banner with a cross? All getting converted? Perhaps the artist just wasn't really thinking . . . Steven
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Beautiful work, Dick. I stand amazed at the thoroughness of your research and your ability to translate it into real-world modelling. Steven
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How did I miss this until now? Very impressive, Peter. And very fast work without sacrificing quality in the slightest. At the beginning of the build you commented on whether or not you had put the log in the right place. I assume that's because you're not building the model exactly the same as the kit, with no rudders etc. No problemo - that's what we call kit-bashing, and is usually better than how it comes in the kit because the builder has invested more care and attention - and research - into it than the kit manufacturers were prepared to. I don't usually follow modern builds - I'm more a mediaeval/renaissance guy - but this build is really beautiful. Steven
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Looking good, Chris. Steven
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I'd agree with you - those floorboards look too far apart. I think moving them closer together would be an improvement. I can't see part 18 anywhere, so can't help with the balustrade. Maybe some pictures of the problem? I've got Roth's book and you're right, it does have its limitations. It was written over 30 years ago, and things have changed a lot in that time. The build is looking very good. I'm looking forward to seeing more . . .
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A very nice collection, mate. keep up the good work. Steven
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Thanks everybody for the likes. It does help getting them, particularly when things get difficult (such as when I discovered I couldn't have the full complement of upper oarsmen😠). Druxey, yes I'd already thought of that, and I sheathed the spur in fake copper alloy sheeting. (Archaeologists used to call this stuff bronze, but they discovered its chemical composition was so variable that it could just as easily be called brass, so they changed the name). Mine is made of aluminium foil from the little containers the cat food came in, then painted with Humbrol "bronze" paint. Not sure if it's because it was an old tin (I bought it from a toy shop) or the fault of the paint itself, but it was very gluey and unsatisfying. However, it did the job. The front surface of the forecastle is also sheathed. John Haldon's 2006 experiment with it made it very obvious that heat shielding was absolutely necessary, and you could see from the video that a spur would have got covered with the flaming stuff. Steven
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Beautiful work, Danny. A real pleasure. Steven
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Thanks for the likes and comments. Nikiforos, the picture is a "13th-century manuscript illustration of a scene from the 11th-century First Crusade. Within the initial 'E' is a ship carrying the Italian-Norman nobleman Bohemund of Taranto (c.1058-1111), and Italian bishop Dagobert of Pisa (died 1105), as they sail for Apulia in Italy. Bohemond was one of the leaders of this first crusade by Christian Europe to gain territory in the Holy Land. Bohemund founded a Norman monarchy in Antioch. Daimbert, with Bohemund's support, became Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. The text is Old French. Artwork from a 1250s French edition of 'Histoire d'Outremer' by medieval chronicler William of Tyre (c.1130-1186)." I've installed the windlass - twice. The first time it was too far aft and didn't provide enough room for the first oarsman or two. So I dissolved the glue with isopropanol and drilled some more holes in the deck for the pins, and moved it forward, closer to the pseudopation (forecastle). It looks a little cramped for access to the pseudopation, but hey, it's a ship and sailors are good at getting into small spaces and around obstacles. I've also finally glued the spur in place on the bow. The model is getting complete enough to do this at last. I have yet to install the cardboard brackets which represent iron ones, connecting the spur to the wales either side of the bow. Probably in the next post. And I need to find a good place to stow the windlass bars, and make a couple of little ladders for the crew to access the pseudopation either side of the windlass. Lots of little details still to do before I can do things like add the lower oars, masts etc. And I've yet to summon up courage to make the 50 upper bank oarsmen. In fact, due to designing as I went along, there'll be only 44 of them because the poop deck ended up longer than in the original drawings, which didn't allow enough room for the "tent" and the steersmen. With the longer poop I've had to sacrifice the last three pairs of upper oars aft. Not much I can do about it so I just have to live with it. If I ever did a dromon Mark II I'd allow for this and make the ship just that bit longer, but it's not worth doing just for that. Steven
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Hi, I just came across this link which I hope is of interest. http://clandonald-heritage.hmstudiosllc.com/the-galley/ It's Scottish rather than Irish, but you might find it useful, particularly the sculpture with the ship on it. Unfortunately, there's no information on the date or origin of this artefact, but it's certainly very interesting.The towers on the castle look 14th century to me, and if the thing above the ship is a helmet, as I believe it to be, it is of a type (known as a barrel helm)which began to see use about 1250 and stayed in use for about 100 years. The text is rather partisan, and probably should be taken with a pinch of salt. But it brings up several references to Gaelic galleys before the advent of the Vikings. Oh, and following up on the seal shown in the above article, I discovered another link, with even more pictures of, and information about Gaelic (specifically Scottish) galleys - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_Óg_of_Islay And following up on Pinterest, some more pics, at https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/92112754860158326/ and if you click on the more interesting images they take you to subsequent pages with more ships of the same type. Hope this helps, Steven
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Greg, that's already looking good. I'm looking forward to another of your amazing builds. By the way, what size drill bit did you use for all those holes? Steven
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Looking really good, George. The quality of work, particularly at such a small scale, is really impressive. Steven
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