dafi

During my build on the Victory there is always some need to talk or to explore deeper, and one realizes, that many details are not properly defined and are much more judged merely by kind of mental cinema than researched facts. It started with a discussion in our german forum about the orientation of the free end of the shroud: Always left, always right or different depending on the side of the ship?!? Here we had a research in the common literature and the results were quite similar with: - for the cable-laid shrouds - Starboard side the free end pointing foreward, larboard aft - for plain- or hawser-laid shrouds - Starboard side the free end pointing aft, larboard foreward Background technically wise is that the rope always tends to curl in one direction and the free end should be crossing on the inner side, this leads automatically to the above mentioned orientations. If one simply flips the deadeye the free end would end up outside. And please do not refer to the shrouds star- and larboard having different twists: Forget it, that is a marine myth created by Mr. Monfeld and is already revoked by himself - not without some gnashing of teeth on his side ;-) Here some literature with the above mentioned orientation in green Schrage Rundhölzer ... page 81 Fig. 224/226 "Von außen gesehen wurden die Kabelweis geschlagenen Wanttaue von rechts nach links um die Jungfer gelegt, so dass an jeder Schiffsseite der Tamp hinter dem Want an der rechten Seite des Wanttaus zu liegen kam. Dort wo sich beide Parten über der Jungfer kreuzen, wurde die erste Bindselung angelegt und der rechts liegende Tamp mit zwei Plattbindselungen am Wanttau befestigt." Marquardt, Schoner in Nord und Süd page 128 Fig 41 "Bei kabelgeschlagenen war das Ende oberhalb der Juffer links beigebunden (an Backbordseite nach hinten weisend), während trossengeschlagene entgegengesetzt beigebunden wurden." Lee Masting and Rigging ... Drawing pages 40 and 42 as mentioned above (only one side shown) Petersson Rigging period Fore-and-Aft Craft Drawing page 16 as mentioned above (only one side shown) Petersson Rigging period shipmodels Drawing page 2 bis 4 as mentioned above (only one side shown) Harland Seamanship Drawing page 22 as mentioned above (only one side shown) Darcy Lever Sheet Anchor "The Lanyard has a ... Knot ... cast on the end ; which is placed the reversed way to what the end of the Shroud is: thus in Cable laid Shrouds, the ends on the larbord side lies aft; on the starboard side forewards; ..." Drawing page 24 as mentioned above (only one side shown) Boudriot shows the same orientation for the frensh (thanks to pollux for the information) The Victory in Portsmouth was shown the same way (at least until the actual rerigging) Nares, Brady und Biddlecombe only describe Cutter Stay fashion The only one telling the other direction is Marquardt in Eighteenth Century Rigs and Rigging, which contradicts his own Book Schooner Nord und Süd On this occasion I found some other useful information: - Max. distance of the big deadeyes twice diameter - Tackle about half the diameter of the shroud - Shroud not too tight around the deadeye - free end of the tackle passes through the gap of deadeye and shroud - free end not too long But it left me with some further questions: - The top-mast shrouds were plain laid or cable laid (cablets)? Plain laid would mean that the ends would be pointing the other way than on the lower shrouds. - The same for backstays? - The distance of twice diameter of the deadeye looks good on the lower shrouds lanyards. Is this applicable too for the topmast shrouds? There the distance usually looks much longer in comparison? - When was the batten on top of shrouds introduced to maintain their orientation? Marquardt only makes a small remark in the picture section telling "about 1800". - Was this also introduced for the topmast shrouds? popeye2sea already replied one hint: Steels, Art of Rigging simply states "Dead-eyes are turned into the lower end of the top mast shrouds, as the lower ones are into to lower shrouds. (Thank you mate!!!) Cheers, Daniel

I already digged the usual suspects and will soon give an account :-) XXXDAn

Thank you Mark and Popeye! I will put some further remarks*** and details over there ... It is getting tighter ... XXXDAn *** sorry MArk, no pun intended ;-)

Just added the difference inbetween cable-laid shrouds and plain- or hawser-laid shrouds in the entry upstairs :-) This leads me to some further question: - The top-mast shrouds were plain laid? This means the ends are pointing the other way than on the lower shrouds. - The distance of twice diameter of the deadeye looks good on the lower shrouds lanyards. Is this applicable too for the topmast shrouds? There the distance usually looks much longer in comparison? - When was the batten on top of shrouds introduced to maintain their orientation? Marquardt only makes a small remark in the picture section telling "about 1800". - Was this also introduced for the topmast shrouds? Cheers, Daniel

After some lenghty but fruitful discussion in our german forum about the orientaion of the free end left or right, forth or aft we found that almost all literature shows it the way that it is displayed: - for the cable-laid shrouds - Starboard pointing foreward, larboard aft :-) - for plain- or hawser-laid shrouds - Starboard pointing aft, larboard foreward :-) The opnly one showing it vica versa is Marquardt in his Eighteenth Century Rigs and Rigging, funnily, his other book Schoner in Nord und Süd shows it the "common" way. Some other information coming the way was incorporated immediately - Max. distance of the big deadeyes twice diameter - Tackle about half the diameter of the shroud - Shroud not too tight around the deadeye - free end of the tackle passes through the gap of deadeye and shroud - free end shorter And here we go Mark 2: before: After Still have to clear and belay the tackles to look less messy :-) XXXDAn

Wonderfully done ! XXXDAn

Harland´s Seamanship mentioned "Sword mats" on page 259 to protect the lanyards from chafing. DAniel

Love it :-) XXXDAn

Finally - finally - finally!!! Looks like you sensed the force growing Lawrence, I really found time for my sweety :-) First some hanging trials for the anchor ... ... just to realised that it is the point and not the fluke resting in the shoe. Then finally some rigging :-) *enjoy* Prepared some deadeyes this time not using toothpicks but using thin battens from the draw plate ... ... drilled and painted. Tried something new for the rigging procedure ... ... a round stick with the external diameter of the deadeye with a slot ... ... 4 times round and secured, taking down the ring ... ... and forced over the deadeye. Then prepared a new template ... ... stuck the deadeye into the hole and clamped it ... ... and made the two seizings. And what for ?!? Simply for that the last shroud does look good beside topgallant backstay, shifting backstay and royal backstay :-) And this is how it looks ... Cheers, Daniel

Some thoughts of mine: One important tool is missing in most of the models: The sailors! I find odd that loose ends lay on the floor. Either they should be held by someone or secured and stored. If one looks at most of the builds, the tackles lay unsecured on the floor, one wave and a whole side´s battery makes a visit at the companions on the other board ;-) Often seen, it appears also physically strange that the takle runns in a straight line from the block to the "cheese", no hang or slack to be seen ... For my build I decided to either have someone holding the tackles or to keep it lashed. Easy for the guns lashed for the trip, for the run out pieces and ready for combat, them being lashed and the lanyards placed over the barrel, as seen on Constitution and Victory. This keeps the floor clear. Just to add to the discussion: #472 Cheers, Daniel

Hy Einstein, Longridge is a great source for the Vic, but please do not forget, that he represents the knowledge of the 1960, means some 55 years ago! Cheers, DAniel

Nice start :-) XXDAn

Nice to have the boy back! XXXDAn

Have a look at archjofos marvelous La Creole. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/1029-la-créole-by-archjofo-scale-148-french-corvette-of-1827-scratch-build/page-2?hl=creole#entry22428 There are plenty of brass parts, mostly done without big equipment. Simply astonishing! Cheers, Daniel

Lovely work! Cheers, Daniel

Outstanding! Love it :-) XXXDAn

Looking forward! What scale is it? Cheers, DAniel

Finally had time to catch up: Wonderful work! XXXDAn

Hello Frankie, those were night signals, sometimes supported with false fires (flares). Adkin´s Trafalgar Companion describes those and the different variations of three to four lanterns. The lantern shown would have meant signal 22 for the british, no idea what it meant nor the significance for the french ;-) Hope this helps, Daniel

Those pictures with the furled stay sails just appeared only briefly near the time, when the stay sails were introduced. Not to be seen later on. Can it be they could have been permant fixes in the start before the preventer stays were used for the downholders? Anderson describes in The Rigging of Ships: In the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720 on page 256/257 that the sails "laced to their stays with thin lines passed the opposite way of the lay of the rope. They had simple tacks and probably had downholders." And I remembered some pictures of other occasions: early way of dealing with lateen sails The Legend of Saint Ursula (Italian: Storie di sant'Orsola) is a series of large wall-paintings on canvas by the Italian Renaissance artist Vittore Carpaccio, scene: Arrival of the Pilgrims at Cologne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vittore_Carpaccio_041.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Saint_Ursula Or something more modern. Also this picture should be known ... ... got the small detail ?!? What the hell is this guy doing there? Cheers, Daniel PS: And a small easter egg for all of you :-)

Oh Grant, I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry ;-) XXXDan PS: ... and you are doing grant :-)

Hy Grant, using the last hours of holiday to catch up with your progress: Very nicely done !!! Great way of closing my free time. :-) :-) :-) Cheers, Daniel

I already saw this in books as further protection. Normal one or just for Battle? So I would like to ask on top: When was this introduced? XXXDAn

Already looking forward to include this in my build :-) XXXDAn

Of course we like :-) :-) :-) XXXDAn