Matrim

Greetings! When working on kits I tended to paint once the part was complete (so the wales when the wales done) but not wait until the end as rigging etc gets in the way.
 
On my first kit i did this then covered the entire model in talcum powder in an erroneous attempt to mark the water line. Then I had to paint it again plus wash out bits that should not be painted. (Did look good as a 'ghost' ship though...)

Greetings! When working on kits I tended to paint once the part was complete (so the wales when the wales done) but not wait until the end as rigging etc gets in the way.
 
On my first kit i did this then covered the entire model in talcum powder in an erroneous attempt to mark the water line. Then I had to paint it again plus wash out bits that should not be painted. (Did look good as a 'ghost' ship though...)

After retiring from a life at see (34 years) a while ago and now once again taking an interest in ships. I have taking to modelling. I have already started my first model boat and just completed the bulkheads to the two part keel , faired the bulkheads and in the process of filling in and shaping  in the stem and stern and shaping to take the planking. Already I have thought i should perhaps taken more care with the above proceedures. Unfortunately i have not carried out some of the procedures explained on this web site as they weren't mentioned in the instructions . I am now also wondering to extend the block filling between bulkheads further aft  as this to me seems to me to be the area of greatest change and think the planks would benefit from further support.
   Although a good way off painting  anything I did wonder at what stage do I start painting, ie do I start painting some areas such has the hull etc prior to completion or do I wait until the model is completed? I have already taken lots of ideas from this forum and and find most of it very informative however I am finding some of it I have to read the articals several times for it to sink in. Sign of old age .Haha.
                    

Save your money and your sanity. "Plank crimpers" are next to useless. 
 
Go to the Articles Database, https://thenrg.org/resource/articles, and read everything in there on planking. Then go to YouTube and watch Chuck Passaro's plank-bending instructional videos.
 
Then you're good to go.
 
 

Hi all,
 
A short while ago, we added a map system to MSW. This allowed you to add your location/town/city to the system which would then add a pin on our global map. When we updated MSW, this became redundant as it was incompatible. 
 
We have now installed Community Maps to MSW, which works in exactly the same way as the previous. This will allow you to find any member close by, who has also added their location. A great tool for finding if there are members near you for joining any clubs perhaps, or kit trades/sales etc. 
 
This is an entirely voluntary application, meaning you manually place your location pin into the map. You can do this manually or get the system to grab your location and drop the virtual pin for you. 
 
If members added their location, this could be an invaluable tool as well as a generally interesting feature here at MSW.
 
This is a members-only facility. To access it, click this dropdown:

 
You will also see an extra area on your profile page, like this:
 

 
 
If you added your pin to the previous version, you will need to DO IT AGAIN. Our apologies.
 
Have fun with this. I'm going to spend a little while playing around with it.
 

Thanks for the encouragement and tips guys! I’m going to try dissassembling everything, straightening it all out, and then dry fitting before I re-glue everything.
 
I’ve been using wood glue (Elmer’s brand). Would isopropyl alcohol work on that too? Taking a quick look online it says warm water with vinegar or denatured alcohol.
 
Is PVA preferable for these types of kits?

Gidday Alberto.
I will add my comments, for what they are worth, the isopropyl alcohol is a good idea if you used P.V.A. and wish to take things apart. Personally I would start over as the warped keel needs to be straightened or remade. I understand your budget constraints as I operate on a shoestring myself. I can only reinforce Stevens comments above. I learnt the hard way in my exuberance re dry assembly before finally gluing up. 
Most problems can be overcome and by the tone of your post you have a very positive attitude which is admirable.
As I stated these are only a few of my personal thoughts. Others will undoubtedly offer other remedies or approaches. 
I wish you all the best in your build.
P.S. I found the intro fascinating.
Mark.

Not to worry, Alberto. There are very few things that can't be mended with a bit of work, and even the best of us have sometimes forged ahead where angels fear to tread and had to go back and start again. Stick with it; you'll get there.
 
Regarding the bent keel, there are various posts on the forum on how to fix such things (though of course unfortunately I can't remember where I saw them). If worst comes to worst, it might be necessary to make a new one. Is the keel made of ply? If so, it's not an inherent twisted grain problem as I faced when I started my dromon.
 
If you used PVA (white) glue on the frames you can dissolve it by soaking in isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). Both that and methylated spirits (ethanol with 5% methanol otherwise known as wood alcohol) are commonly called rubbing alcohol, but isopropanol is the only one that works on PVA, as I discovered to my cost.
 
One thing is that you've learned an important modeller's lesson. Don't glue unless you know you've got it right. You'll find a lot of modellers "dry fit" things together before they add glue. It can prevent a lot of heartache.
 
And don't give up because something occasionally goes wrong. With patience and perseverance you'll get there, even if you have to retrace your steps once in awhile. Speaking for myself, and I'm sure for everybody else on the forum, there's no build that ever goes perfectly. And as your level of skill improves and your own standards for your work raise, you'll find ever new and more interesting mistakes to make!
 
Having said all that, I'd like to add that you've chosen a beautiful ship to build. I'm sure it'll turn out to be something you'll be very happy to have done.
 
Steven     

Hello everyone, this is my first build log and my first model of any kind in over a decade. I used to do plastic. My only experience with woodworking was shop in school, and helping build some sets for plays in University. This will be my first wooden ship build ever. I've chosen Dusek's 1:72 scale 11th Century Viking Longship kit. It seems relatively simple, with minimal planking and rigging. Hopefully it is a good starter ship!
 
I'm a big fan of these later Viking ships since seeing them at the Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde, Denmark. It's really worth a visit if you are in Copenhagen and are looking to do a day trip. Roskilde is a nice town in general, with a beautiful Gothic cathedral.
 
In the 1960's during the construction of a sea wall near the village of Skuldelev in the Roskilde Fjord, five well preserved Viking ships from the mid to late 11th Century CE were discovered. The archaeological excavation and investigation of the site determined that the ships were probably sunk intentionally with the aim of blocking the channel, as it was the most direct navigable route to Roskilde. At the time, Roskilde was one of the most important Royal and Ecclesiastical centers in Denmark - Roskilde cathedral is still the burial site of the Danish monarchy, in fact. The ships included an ocean going trader of the 'knarr' type (Skuldelev 1, which Dusek also sells a kit of), a large ocean going warship of the 'skeid' type (Skuldelev 2), a small coastal trade ship (Skuldelev 3), a smaller coastal warship of the 'snekkja' type (Skuldelev 5), and a fishing boat (Skuldelev 6).
 
This Dusek model is based on Skuldelev 2:

Skuldelev 2 measured approximately 30 m in length, with a breadth of 3.8 m, an estimated displacement of 26 tons fully loaded, and a shallow draught of about 1 meter. They estimate it had about 30 rowers on each side and that it could perhaps carry an additional 40 warriors, for a maximum complement of 100. This makes it one of the largest Viking warships found to date (I believe a larger one was found in Norway since then, but it's much less complete). It was built entirely of oak. Construction can be dated by tree rings from one of the oak timbers to about 1042 CE, and from analyzing the wood further they were able to tell it was built in Dublin, Ireland. Eventually it made its way to Denmark were it was sunk in the fjord around 1070 CE. These ships were clinker built, using shell first construction with relatively few frames which were inserted as the shell was built up. The overlapping planks were nailed together with iron nails, and were fixed to the frames with treenails. While we were at the Viking Ship Museum, they were working on a new replica of the coastal trader Skuldelev 3 using only traditional tools and techniques, as they've done with all their reconstructions:
 

 
Skuldelev 2 is the least well preserved of the five ships. The bow and the lower midship area are the most intact, including the mast step and the stem post. The stem/stern posts of this era are very interesting and quite different from the ones on the earlier Oseberg and Gokstad ships found in Norway. As you can see above, they were one piece and carved with fake planking lines, with notches for accepting the actual strakes. Not sure exactly what the reasoning is for this development. Here is a closeup of the stem from the Skuldelev 3 wreck, and it's parallel in the Skuldelev 3 replica under construction:
 

 
Both a replica and a model of Skuldelev 2 can also be seen at the Viking Ship Museum:
 

The replica is called the Sea Stallion of Glendalough and I think she's a very sleek and attractive looking ship. She's fully sea worthy. In fact, they sailed her to Ireland and back in 2007-2008! There is even a BBC documentary about the trip, showing how dangerous open ocean voyages on these ships could be - they were initially delayed by storms in Norway, and when they eventually did set out they were caught in a different storm. One of the crew members got hypothermia, the rudder strap broke, and so did one of the shroud pins. They had to be towed by the support ship for awhile until the storm passed and they could fix everything! Looked pretty cramped (you sleep on your rowing bench), cold and miserable. Can't imagine sailing to Iceland in one of these. There's some videos on YouTube showing her in rough seas and under sail. In earlier sailing trials they were able to get her up to 11 knots, but they reckon she could do 15-20 - so she was a fast ship. The results of the rowing trials aren't available yet, but the replica of the smaller warship Skuldelev 5 managed about 3.5-5 knots, so I'd imagine it would be similar if not faster.
 
The Dusek kit does not have the complex stem/sterm post of the actual ship, but that's fine since it's a small model! Most of the parts are laser cut in plywood. Dowels are supplied for the masts, spars, oars, and shield bosses. There's some long pieces with square or rectangular sections for the benches and some internal longitudinal supports. I think it's a very good quality kit, but it's my first one so I don't have much to compare it to Here's when I first opened the box, showing how it was packaged:
 

The manual is well illustrated with good instructions, and some nice full scale plans are provided too. My only small quibble with the manual is there are some grammar issues, but nothing that makes the instructions unintelligible.
 
Last weekend I had the house to myself, so I eagerly got started...but it's been rough! I got too excited and did too much without thinking things through, despite reading the warnings on this board beforehand. You live and learn, I guess!
 
 

So I started by laying out and gluing on the stem and stern pieces (front is on the left). I noticed there was a bend in the keel, and using an iron with a steam function I was able to iron it out, mostly. I only saw the trick of soaking it and weighting it much afterwards, unfortunately.
 

Here's where things started going really bad. Before gluing the frames to the fake deck as per the instructions, I tested out how a few of them fit in to the keel. The keel slots were too narrow however, and one of the frames got stuck and snapped. Luckily I was able to glue it back together without much trouble. I then preceded to widen the keel slots and tested the fit with a scrap piece of wood of the same thickness as the frames. I didn't test the frames again because I got too afraid of snapping another one.
 
I did not consider that the slot in the frames might need widening as well... so I glued the frames to the fake deck, and the next day after it all dried I started popping the frames in to the keel. Of course, popping means the fit is too tight. So I tried to get the frames out, but they wouldn't budge, and when some of the rear frames did come out they came out fast and partially snapped the fake deck. Gah! Since these frames are only to guide the planks and have to be cut out afterwards anyways, and since the fake deck will be covered with veneer, I decided to just glue everything down as is and get on with it...and that's when the bend in the keel came back with a vengeance!

As you can see, it's pretty nasty! Does anyone have any advice on what I should do? Should I try disassembling it and starting over? maybe with a scalpel I can loosen the frames. I was thinking I could also the clamp the keel so it's straight and then do the planking only on one side first, to pull the bend outwards and straighten it out. Then do the planking on the other side later?
 

I've started on the oars and shields too, since there are 60 of each of them. I'm on a budget, so I've been using a power drill, a small file, and sandpaper instead of a lathe. I had two oars snap in this first set of fice, but I was able to glue them back together. They are going to be bundled on deck like on the picture on the front of the kit, so I'm not too worried if they don't look nice - I'll put the ugly ones at the bottom. I'm more just trying to get a handle on turning wood in general. For the shields, I've had trouble with the bosses. The razor saw I have is not fine toothed enough, and the 3 mm dowel has been falling apart when I try to cut out a small piece for the boss. This weekend I'm going to search for a better saw!
 
So yeah, this is where I'm at. Not a good start at all! Haha. This is a learning experience though, so I figured I was going to make a lot of mistakes to start off with. Can only improve from here, right?
 
- Alberto
 

Phil,
 
No direct answer to your question, but do you have access to this book?
 
Lots of well drawn illustrations.
 
Roger
 
 

I made a simple one that worked for some Holly,  but It was nowhere close to being a spec based kiln.
 
1" foil faced sheathing cut up to make a 4 sided box.  The end pieces were Home Depot craft 1" Styrofoam.  It was in a wall shelf, so it was just a push fit.
Heat source - 200-300 Watts of incand. light bulbs.  The bulbs ought not to get close to the foam or touch the wood.  I only had wire clamp bulb fixtures, but next time I would get ceramic fixtures -
I used a computer muffin fan for exhaust of water vapor.  The loose fit was the air intake.
There are low cost probe moisture meters and I used a battery thermometer that saved the highest temp.  It was in my garage, so the temp was affected by ambient.
 
I did not want to cook the Holly, I just wanted the temp to be higher than what Blue Mold would like.  I was in no hurry to season it, but that mold invades quickly.
It was already too late for the stock that came out of my cousin's wood pile,  But unlike what mold did to some Apple I stored incorrectly (oatmeal instead of wood in structure) 
infected Holly is still sound.  It is just not white.  But my cousin's Holly is yellowish anyway.  Like Apple,  Plum is going to have sugar in its transported water.  My take home lesson from
the long ago Apple experience =  slow seasoning of 6-8" logs will have problems from mold as well as being prone to splitting - especially if the cut ends and branch cuts are not completely sealed.
I was in my early 20's and had never seen a bandsaw, much less know what one was for.

Any fruit wood is usually an excellent choice.  The best time to harvest is usually when the tree is dormant.
It will probably be harder that Cherry,  close the Apple - which is King.
For hull planking, you will have to see the actual planks re: the color and uniformity. But for anything else, fittings, furniture, catheads, beams, etc. it will be excellent.
The harvesting technique has been covered in this form several times.
The short list is:
seal the ends - old paint will serve  do it ASAP
debark - insect larvae that bore live there.  Drawknives were designed for this but freehand bandsaw is less actual work, but can cost more wood
Get it into billets soonest if you can.  A free standing bandsaw is the more efficient tool to do this.
Sticker - good ventilation and air circulation - in a covered location or an atic  Access to a kiln gets the seasoned wood more quickly. Air drying = 1 year per inch in thickness.

Apologies if this has been talked about, but a search here only turned up passing references to plum wood.  I have a plum tree that I planted about 12 years ago that is getting to its end of life.  Between black knot and plum curculio and my daughters no longer climbing trees,  I'm thinking it's time for it to go.  How good of a wood for shipbuilding is plum?  Comparable to cherry?  If there's value to it, what's the best time to cut it down and how should I treat it after cutting it down?
 
It's an Asian Plum (Shiro) grafted on European rootstock.  The trunk root stock is about 2-1/2 feet long and 10 inches in diameter before branching.  The primary limb coming off the graft is about 6-8 inches in diameter.  Plenty of wood, just wondering if better for the firepit or modelling.

Cheers ASAT. I don't know know, though, I love Chuck and CAF's models, they are great, and lot more technical than mine. But I try to design with the novice in mind, and hope they can build something that looks great out of the box without too much 'kit bashing', like we're used to with the older mainstream kits.
 
ETA - Forgot to mention, bulkheads and bow/stern patterns are thicker MDF and keel is 3mm, to be clad either side, like Duchess of Kingston for etched details and rabbets.

First, the bulkheads or frames have to be sufficiently rigid to withstand sanding without moving. They must also be set up accurately, but that probably goes without saying. If they move too much, you can put temporary (or permanent if it won't ever be seen after planking) blocking between the bulkheads to give them more rigidity.
 
What works for me is to use a "sanding board." This is a batten of suitable size and width with sandpaper of a suitable grit (120 for rough shaping) glued to one face of the batten. If you want to get fancy, you can glue knob handles on the smooth side of the batten at each end of the batten. This flexible batten is then bent across a number of bulkhead edges or frames and the "high" end of the face of the bulkheads or frames are sanded down to the "low end," which defines the shape of the hull. I generally will mark the "low" edge face of the bulkheads or frames, if not the entire face, so that i can readily see what has been sanded and take care never to sand beyond the "low" edge of the bulkhead or frame. Using the "sanding board" will permit you to fair the bulkhead edges accurately from any direction across the faces of the bulkheads or frames. Where there are bulkheads or frames that require a significant removal of material, you can also carefully cut larger amounts of material using a small spokeshave or other edged tool, but taking great care not to remove too much. Always "work up to the line" with your sanding board. 

I have done a lot of searching but haven't been able to find the information I'm looking for.  I am starting to fair the bulkheads for the Winchelsea project.  It's a large project and I know fairing will take a while but I'm curious what techniques, tools, jigs (perhaps) or other methods you use to accomplish the fairing.
 
Right now I'm using a few different sanding blocks with 60 grit paper.  I also have a Dremel with a flexible shaft but I'm afraid of removing too much material.  I also found that the bulkheads get in the way of the handle so I can't remove material at the proper angle using a sanding drum.  Do you use a different kind of attachment?
 
Using the sanding blocks moves the bulkheads quite a bit back and forth as I sand.  Do you have any special techniques to keep them more rigid?  I'm using Chuck's suggestion using binder clips on the bulkhead extensions as to not break them off.  I have one bulkhead that moves so much back and forth as I sand that I feel it hasn't been glued (although I know it has).
 
Do you sand side to side, up and down or another way?
 
Any response would be helpful to establish a proper routine of fairing as I know this is an important step in the building process.

It is really hard to bend. I found it easier to 'carve' it into the bent shape as opposed to trying to force it to bend. If you do try to bend it then lots of water and heat and beware of it splintering.
 
Best sources are old furniture/ornaments if you can find them. It is a protected wood so it shouldn't be sold from recently cut down trees..

Black ebony is nearly commercially extinct at this point. Pure black ebony only comes from the heartwood of very old trees, most all of which are now gone. What little is available is not pure black and full of checks and voids. Real ebony is very oily and presents challenges when gluing.  The prices are astronomical. Ebony is also subject now to various national and international import bans. Some nations will not permit the importation of items made of ebony without acceptable documentation of the age of the wood being prior to the effective date of various endangered species laws. This has caused a lot of musicians with instruments containing ebony and rosewood a lot of grief when they try to bring their instruments into a foreign country to play at concerts. Your only real option is to take another species and stain it black. Some old modelers have stashes of ebony and real European boxwood, but good luck trying to find any on the retail market these days.

An appropriate reply would take a lot of electrons to answer your question in detail. Might I suggest a good volume on building a model like a full-size ship. Some suitable books:
 
The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, Longridge
HMS Euryalus 1803, Volume I, Yedlinsky
The Naiad Frigate, Volume I, Tosti
The Fully Framed Model; HMN Swan Class Sloops 17670-1780, Volume I, Antscherl
 
 
 

Here is a basic drawing from some of the  ModelShipways kits.
 
The idea, is that the final planking fits flush with the keel and stern post.  So the depth depends on the thickness of your planking material and whether or not you will be
doing single or double planking..
 
For instance, if the keel piece is 3/16  and your total planking material is 1/16, you would want the bearding line and rabbet  to be recessed 1/16 on each side of the keel piece.
Regardless of the thickness of the keel piece, the depth of the bearding line and rabbet needs to be the thickness of your planking.
 
There is tapering to be done, but you have to refine that as you go along.

Also keep in mind that the shape of the rabbet is dynamic, never being the same angle along the length of the keel except in the area of the dead flat.  The angle should match that of the frames/bulkheads where they end at the keel/rabbet line.   There is more to it depending on the era as the keel itself changed over time as well.  For a kit, the same basic idea should apply, though.  The following was posted in the past but this may help you avoid a search.
Allan

 

Hi shortgrass, there are a few wooden boats being built / rebuilt with regular youtube updates. Two i’m following are the ‘Sampson Boat Co‘, where an english shipwright is rebuilding a 130 year old yacht, ‘Tally Ho’ in Oregan and ‘Acorn to Arabella’ where a couple of blokes are building a 1930s(?) yacht design from scratch, including harvesting most of the timber from their property. Both are explaining the how and why.
Look around episode 60 in the former and episode 45 in the latter for cutting the rabbet. I could be an episode out in either direction for the explanation you’re looking for, i watched those episodes quite a whiles back.
Mark

There is also the option when building a POB kit, of using an offset strip a'la Chuck, down the center of the backbone ..
 

 
Image from Chuck's Cheerful instructions.
 

 
Notice the groove created by the rabbet strip, that serves as the rabbet at the stem.
 
Of course, kits that haven't provided separate parts for the stem, keel and sternpost, would not lend itself to this method.

Take a small piece of plank material, rest it on the frame, slide it down on to the rabet line, cut the bevel so the plank thickness is all in the rabet groove, with the plank piece resting on wood in both surfaces. Do the same for all frames (the angle will constantly change). Connect all the rabet segments you ve cut eyeballing things and/or using pieced of plank material. Rabet done

I think there are two simple geometrical answers to the question - which doesn't mean they are easy to achieve. However:
 
- the rabbet has to be so deep that the planking lands on the keel/stem without step, i.e. neither the planks nor the keel may be proud of each other
 
- the included angle between the two surfaces of the rabbet should be around 90"