Bob Cleek

When you get the craves... call your sponsor!  

Like many large steam ships in the age when steam ships also carried sail, it appears that Great Eastern flew her fore and aft gaff-headed sails from semi-permanently rigged gaff booms. The sails were furled by brailing them to the masts and gaff booms. When the sails were struck and sent down, the gaff booms remained rigged as if the sails were set, with the gaff peaks raised to the same angle as when the sails are set. The gaff booms could be unrigged and sent down for maintenance and such, but at all other times, the gaff booms stayed rigged with the sails brailed to the gaff booms and mast.

In port with gaff booms raised and sails sent down.

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

Ok gentlemen now that I completed the rigging I am moving on to some additional parts of the ship. As usual I already have a question and confusion.
 

1. Figure 180 page 255 of Longridge shows a 7” block for the ensign signal halyards at the end of the driver gaff.  Where is the other end of this haliard connected?  

 

2. The Heller kit came with a flag pole of sorts that is mounted on the back. You see the bottom of it in Longridge’s Plan No 2.  This makes me wonder do the driver gaff and driver boom on an actual ship rotate left or right around the mizzenmast, or are they designed to just move up and down the mast?  I can’t see how the boom could move left or right with this flagpole plan n the way. 

1.     The ensign is flown from the aftermost gaff peak when a ship is under sail. The halyard is lead down to a convenient cleat on the boom inboard (or sometimes at the mast) so that the halyard belaying point is easily accessible from the deck. In this fashion, the halyard moves with the gaff sail as it moves across the centerline of the vessel.

2.     The ensign is flown from a staff on the centerline at the stern when the vessel is not under sail. When not under sail, the aftermost boom is secured slightly to port or starboard of the ensign staff. The ensign staff is struck and and stowed on deck when the ship is sailing. If your model will not have sails set, the ensign should be flown from the ensign staff. If the model has sails, the ensign should be flown from the aftermost gaff peak and the ensign staff should be stowed on deck. When the ensign is flown from the ensign staff, the ensign halyard and its block remain rigged at the gaff peak with the halyard belayed at its cleat. 

At present, photos indicate that Victory secures her aftermost boom to port of her ensign staff. I can't discern the ensign gaff peak halyard in the below picture. It may be that because she is in a dry dock and never sails, they haven't bothered to rig a gaff peak ensign halyard at all. (I don't see the boom topping lifts, either, perhaps for the same reason. The ensign in the photo is much smaller than the ensigns flown in earlier times, which were much larger for better visibility at sea.)

On the other hand.... I expect the duty signalman found himself on report the day this photo was taken!  

Large ensign flying from the ensign staff while the ship is anchored. A spectrum of various sized ensigns were carried for various occasions.

12 minutes ago, Bill Morrison said:

My point is that simpler is not necessarily better.  I never completed the schooner because it is boring to me. However, I did complete several ships-of-the-line, galleons, and frigates.

 

Bill

Different ships, different long splices, I guess. Me, when I see the word Victory, I just yawn and keep on scrolling. I'd rather see a good model of a working boat than a naval vessel any day. I guess I'm just a pirate at heart.  

On 9/22/2022 at 10:48 PM, Jaager said:

Do yourself a favor and read this ASAP:        https://modelshipworld.com/topic/13703-for-beginners-a-cautionary-tale/

 

In the spirit of a scientific thought experiment, I propose the following:

 

It is true that more than a few have begun with a Victory kit (or SotS or Constitution) and managed a successful completion.  But I seriously doubt that any one of them would have felt the need to ask the question that you did.   The self assured arrogance or whatever personality traits that are required to carry them past the initial intimidating barrier and all the many subsequent ones on to a finish are the mental tools that would also keep them from even considering asking anyone else about the wisdom of their choice.

 

Starting with a monster and finishing it is a infrequent occurrence.   For these most popular of ship model kit subjects, the number that have been barely or even never been started vastly,vastly out number the number taken to completion. 

 

If you have no background in miniature wood working,  if plastic kits are your only experience, then you would do well to spend time and imagination reading a lot of kit build logs.   Plastic is a separate skill set for skills beyond research and painting.

 

This is a new world.  It is broad enough to engage several lifetimes, but not impossibly open ended.  Nothing else will expose you to the technology - the entire technology - of the time period of a chosen subject.  

 

 

Please read Jaager's above post again and definitely read the link listed at the beginning. This is an internet forum and free advice on the internet often costs much more in the end than one paid for it. The reader must always separate the fly specks from the pepper. Too quickly believing what you want to hear is an ever-present danger.

The author of the above post is one of the most experienced and accomplished modelers on this forum. Seven members (as of this post) have endorsed his advice to you. One of those who gave Jaager's post a "thumbs up" is Chris Watton, owner of Vanguard Models and world-renowned model ship kit designer. I believe he is currently working on designing a kit model of HMS Indefatigable, a 64-gun third rate ship-of-the-line designed in 1761, which, in modeling terms, poses most of the challenges posed by any fully-rigged ship of the same period as HMS Victory. Notwithstanding the well-intentioned encouragement of some responses to your post, what does Chris Watton's endorsement of Jaager's post tell you?

Choose wisely, Grasshopper. Master walking before you try to run. 

On 9/24/2022 at 1:41 AM, Jaager said:

Sometimes a miter box and saw or the frustrating Dobson seems a better way.  

On 9/24/2022 at 7:42 AM, No Idea said:

It costs $175 ........wow..........add $300 and you can buy a Byrnes table saw.  Its 3 times the price and 100 times the tool. 

Right on! Truer words were never spoken.

Excel 55666 - Mitre Box w/ K5 Handle and Saw Blade - Midwest Model Railroad (midwestmodelrr.com)

This will do just fine for $17.50 and you're about $150 or 25% of the way to getting your Byrnes "Jim Saw" with the sliding miter table!

Byrnes Model Machines - Thickness Sander

Come on now. You know you really want one. You know everybody eventually gets one and then wonders why it took them so long to getting around to it. You know it will pay for itself over time in savings over the cost of pre-cut strip wood and it's accurate to a thousandth of an inch. Set aside a few bucks a month and you'll be able to buy one without the purser ever missing it from the sugar jar.   

Go on! Don't be a wimp! Show some spunk! JUST DO IT!

42 minutes ago, Dr PR said:

I had also thought about having a roll-around work bench so I could get at all sides of a large model without having to turn it around. One of the benches will be about 90 inches (228 cm) long. I suppose I could make it movable. It is the one closest to the door and is where I was thinking of putting the model. I would attach the AC outlets to the wall above where it would normally be positioned. I plan to put pegboard above these wall outlets. These would remain on the wall when the bench is moved.

Attach AC outlets below the rolling bench top and wire these to an extension cord that hangs from a hook on the side of the bench. You then roll the bench around and plug it in wherever's convenient like a big "power strip."

I have pegboard covering all the walls of my shop bench area which aren't already covered by hanging cabinets. I also should mention that architectural recycling outfits, places like Habitat for Humanity stores, and many kitchen remodeling contractors will have used kitchen cabinets available. (Some contractors will readily give these cabinets and bases away for the taking, because the generally have to pay to take them to the dumps.) I have kitchen cabinets hung above all of my wall-mounted benches.

35 minutes ago, Dr PR said:

One thing to keep in mind before planning a lot of separate AC circuits - have you priced Romex lately?

Oh, yeah! Copper is through the roof. The next time I need some, I'm considering going to my local scrap yard to see if they have any they'd sell me cheap. That's where the "tweakers" who steal wiring from unoccupied buildings fence heir loot. 

2 hours ago, Dr PR said:

I was thinking of having AC outlets along the back of the benches at least every two feet. Outlets and wiring are pretty inexpensive relative to the costs of the rest of the project. Each bench will have its own AC circuits and breakers - at least two per bench. I have 17 unused 15 Amp breaker positions in the house 200 Amp breaker panel in the garage close to the shop extension, so I can wire a lot of individual 15 Amp circuits and gang breakers for 30 Amp circuits.

Might I also suggest AC outlets in the front of workbenches just below the bench top?. These make it very easy to plug, unplug, and use hand-held corded power tools like Dremels and soldering irons at the bench with the cords hanging down in front of the bench rather than running across the bench top where they can foul on stuff on the bench top.  Each power outlet circuit should have a ground-fault interrupter on it for those occasions when you inadvertently lay your hot soldering iron across it's plastic power cord.  

15 amp service is fine for lighting and small power tools, but I'd suggest you provide 30 amp service to all outlets for when you may need it. (Like when your electric coffee pot, microwave, and portable space heater are all running at the same time.  )  As you anticipate doing full-size woodworking in your shop, I think you'd also be wise to run 220 VAC to power outlets in appropriate areas. You may well come across a really great deal on a used stationary power tool that requires 220 VAC power, as all the best ones do. Having 220 VAC available, will greatly increase the number of available quality used tools for sale to pick from and if you are going to spring for a new 10" table saw or other stationary power tool, the 220 VAC will enable your stationary tool to operate at its full potential

In addition to workbenches against the wall, I suggest you also acquire a free-standing workbench on locking casters that can be rolled around as the job requires. It should as big as you can make it, 8'X10', if possible, and be the same height as your table saw + router table (in the saw table extension) so the bench can serve as an extension table if needed. I've found a free-standing, solid, heavy, rolling table is necessary for working on things that are too large to fit on the wall-mounted bench, like furniture and model cases. Since you are planning on doing full-sized work, your rolling workbench should have a decent below the bench top woodworking vise mounted on it (preferably one with a raising bench-dog bar on it) and your wall-mounted bench should have the biggest machinist's vise the bench can handle (4" jaws minimum) very securely mounted on a corner of the wall-mounted bench. (Think in terms of something that will hold a workpiece rock steady while you really put your back into a pipe wrench with a breaker bar.) A large rolling workbench can have drawers and cabinets installed in the body of it for tool storage. The added weight of the tools contributes to the stability of the table.

Since this workshop area will be in the back of your garage, I'd suggest you provide a way to roll your free-standing workbench and stationary power tools out to the drive way or at least to the threshold of the garage doors and, if it's not a huge undertaking, that may involve running 120 and 220 VAC outlets closer to the doors. When this is possible, and with a large fan at your back, spray painting, powered sanding, table sawing, and other messy jobs can be done without resorting to an expensive built-in sawdust and shavings vacuum system. The fan will blow a large amount of the airborne fine dust outside and save you a lot of shop cleanup time. (This practice is subject to the circumstances however... Some neighbors take exception to late-night power tool operating noise and perceive a cloud of sawdust drifting towards their front porch like it was mustard gas.) 

As your new workshop in the garage is presumably attached to the house and not removed some inconvenient distance away, you will almost certainly encounter the problem of household members employing your shop benches and tabletops... indeed any available horizontal surface in your shop... as a place to dump whatever they don't want to be inside the house at any given moment. Alas, as hard as I've tried, I've never discovered a solution to this problem that didn't involve getting a divorce. If anybody's solved this problem, please share your secret!  

If the comments and complaints I read in the plastic kit modeling forums are any indicationi, it seems there's an ongoing problem with the fitting accuracy of a lot of plastic model kits. Apparently, it's not all that easy to manufacture plastic parts to the degree of fit accuracy many plastic modelers expect. I'd expect fitting plastic planking would be a nightmare if the problems that are encountered just fitting two plastic hull halves together without gaps is any indication. 

46 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

Since I too have amassed a notable library over my adult lifetime I used to direct the questioner to the relevant books in my library resulting in complaints about telling others to spend money, limited budgets, and the cost of books.

I thought I'd "amassed a notable library over my adult lifetime," but I'm truly humbled. I wonder who created that spreadsheet. That was a monumental task in itself.

However, please Roger, let's not draw attention to this opportunity until we've had a chance to savor each and every mouthwatering morsel of it before it turns into a "Black Friday Sale!"    

You can tell a lot about a man by the books he reads. Mr. Curry is a guy I'd have loved to meet! I'm sorry I never got to know him.

3 hours ago, Jaager said:

What I really want is a 45 degree tool mount and that seems to be a unicorn.

I've heard rumors of a Foredom 45 degree adapter for their standard handpieces, but I've never seen one. That said, the belt-driven dental engine handpiece selection is unlimited and angled dental engine handpieces come in a myriad of shapes and sizes. Particularly for working inside a hull, the dental handpieces, which are designed to do fine drilling and grinding in the confines of the human mouth, are the right tool for the job. That would require acquiring a dental engine which is an expensive proposition at around $1,000 for an engine and $200 and up per handpiece, but belt-driven, foot controlled bench model dental engines, while still made, are very common on the used market because many dental labs are now going over to micromotor technology. I was recently able to come across an unused Buffalo Dental Co. bench dental engine and handpiece on eBay for seventy-five bucks. It was listed as a "inoperable steam punk" decorator piece. Upon examining the photos closely, It looked brand new, but was missing a belt and a couple of the belt wheels. The manufacturer told me they had parts available, so I decided to take a chance. It turned out to be missing the belt, wheels, and motor brushes, which cost me another fifty bucks or so from the manufacturer. I suspect it was stock on hand somewhere that had been cannibalized for the missing parts as a matter of convenience and the parts never replaced. Working dental engines and handpieces can be found on eBay for five hundred dollars or less these days. Having a Foredom, I found the dental engine a much better option for very fine work.

While I have an older Foredom flex-shaft tool and the two most common handpieces, the collet head and the Phillips chuck, I prefer hanging mine from the Foredom hanger that clamps to the lip of a bench. This allows me the option of putting it wherever I desire on whichever bench I am using. While other's like the benchtop base, before I had the hanging post, I found that with the bench top mount the flex-shaft was always getting in the way of things on the benchtop and, when I was focusing on the handpiece, it was all too easy to pull the shaft across the top of the bench and foul something on the bench with potentially disastrous consequences. The choice of mount is obviously a matter of the operator's preference and I'd say that, considering the relatively small cost involved, getting the hanging yoke and hanging post in addition to the bench base is probably a smart move because you'll have twice the flexibility is setting up for any particular job (e.g. sanding frames inside a hull.) 

As for Foredom handpieces, you will want both the chuck and the collet basic handpieces. You will also want to purchase a collet set for the collet handpiece. The collet makes swapping 1/8" Dremel bits more convenient than the chuck and if you have a 3/32" collet, you can do the same for standard dental burrs which are available online and of much higher quality and variety than the `1/8" shaft bits offered by Dremel. (You may even get your dentist to save you his old dull dental burrs, which remain just fine for woodworking.) You will also need a "reduction chuck," which permits the use of very small drill bits. This is essentially a small pin vise with a 1/8" shaft. (There's one demonstrated in the video below.)

3 hours ago, Jaager said:

The drill press is surprisingly robust.  I had the money to burn, but as long as my DRL 3000 holds on, it will be a backup.  The hand pieces are designed for side loads, so the drill press could be a safe mill for the sort of wood milling that we do.  But then, there would have to be an XY table and a vise and the back clearance is tight.

Before you take a look at the Foredom drill press, I would strongly suggest you consider the Vanda-Lay drill press, or, better yet, the Vanda-Lay "mill/drill" with an X-Y table and an optional Z axis as well, The Vanda-Lay system is a reasonably affordable alternative to a much more expensive dedicated heavy-duty micro-mill. The Vanda-Lay drill press is similar to, but probably at a lower price point than the Foredom drill press, and nearly all the reasons a modeler would want a small drill press are reasons why they'd find they needed an X-Y table on it as well. The last time I spoke with Vanda-Lay (a family owned business,) they assured me that they could provide a holder for the 1" Foredom handpieces instead of the Dremel Moto-tool on special order. (Milling one yourself would be an easy task if you had access to a larger mill.)  See: https://www.vanda-layindustries.com/

If you haven't seen this video yet, it's worth a watch. The guy is a dentist and master modeler and gives a great overview of rotary tool options.

Glad to see your surgery was a success and you're back at your bench. Your work is truly and inspiration. Thanks for sharing it with us.

2 hours ago, jud said:

Thanks for that, have used painted canvas for siding and roofs on canopies and on small sheds, the boiling water I missed, sounds like an improvement. Canvas shrinks when wet without help, so maybe 2 or 3 coats of wet latex would accomplish the shrinking with better penetration for my occasional needs.

 

They used raw, non-prestretched canvas, tacked down around the edges over and Irish felt underlayment. They threw hot water on the canvas to get it to stretch tightly over the shape of the roof. Some actually applied the paint over the canvas when it was still damp. I wouldn't recommend using waterbased paint for this purpose. I'd use a solvent based "porch enamel." It's best to use an enamel that chalks when it ages, in order to minimize paint buildup on the canvas. The enamel paint was thinned well to soak into the canvas easily. 

19 hours ago, druxey said:

I believe that painted canvas was also used over roofs.

Common practice was to lay tongue and groove planking over beams, lay Irish (flax) felt (similar to a thick tar paper) bedded in white lead bedding compound on top of the planking, and canvas nailed, then shrunk in place with boiling water, which was then painted to produce a watertight covering. (This same method was used for railroad coaches of the period, as well.)

10 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Bob, would love to follow your build log. A single step and all that. 

Someday, hopefully soon. Spare time is in precious short supply these days and SWMBO lays claim to most of it!  

8 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Dang, Bob. Steel hull? And I suppose all the woodwork has been polyurethaned instead of varnished? 

Goodness! I certainly hope not!  

Yes, the stainless steel fittings and all the modern design below is rather jarring to a "classicist's eye." In this day and age, though, the modern materials promise a much longer-lived boat than the traditional wooden construction. I'm not a big fan of it, mind you, but if I were spending that kind of money on a cruising boat, I'd sure be looking for something like that boat for the lower maintenance, if nothing else.

Maintenance aside, I'd prefer a laid wood deck and bronze hardware to the modern steel construction:

The original Dyarchy built of wood is a much "saltier" boat.

I have a set of the original Dyarchy plans and a license to build one model from them. I hope to get around to it one of these days.

On 9/7/2022 at 1:31 PM, Keith Black said:

Bob, let's go in halves on this one. This is the one to buy if money REALLY doesn't matter.

Keith, as a former classic yacht broker, I'd say $380,000 is way more than this NY30 is really worth. I don't doubt they have every bit of that into her, but the market is in the toilet right now and they are asking a lot of money for the "cachet." That kind of money will buy a lot of boat in that class these days. If money's no object, you and TBlack might want to consider that this one: sold for and asking price of only around $200,000 with the purchase price likely considerably less, and it's a new steel hull with state-of-the-art construction and technology: https://dailyboats.com/boat/162322-buy-laurent-giles-54-steel-gaff-rigged-cutter-for-sale

I think Lieste has found some authority for the "screening" explanation. Good research work!

29 minutes ago, jud said:

Concealment of the exact location of the embrasure. Also hides the the movement of the crew and the running out of the gun.

I considered and discarded all the explanations mentioned, save this one. The trouble I have with it, though, is that as soon as a black powder cannon was fired from that embrasure, it would be pretty obvious that it was there and, at the firing distances involved, the movement of the crew and running out the gun would probably not have been all that discernable. Furthermore, for the purposes of concealment, canvas curtains painted the color of the rock face would be much more effective.

I was hoping RN vet could explain with certainty what those things are. 

This is a gun station cut into the living rock of Gibraltar. Note the "curtain" of lines hanging from the bar in front of the gunport.  Does anybody know what they are called or what purpose they actually serve? I've never seen anything like them before. 

3 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 

 

 Yeah, I was disappointed not to see cabin photos or info on when she was last surveyed. You can tell the topside wood needs to be sanded and revarnished and maybe a new coat of white deck paint. None of the bright work has a closeup photo, the sails look good. She's tired but at a hundred and seventeen years old I guess that can be expected. Beautiful lines to her. 

There's another NY30 on the market for $390,000, so you can draw your own conclusions as to the condition of the one on eBay for $112,000. ( 1905 Herreshoff New York 30 Antique and Classic for sale - YachtWorld ) She's probably due for a major rebuild. These beautiful classic boats are worthy of major rebuilds, but few can justify putting the mid-six figures necessary into doing so. The higher priced one had 95% of her frames and floor timbers replaced, a new interior and decks and deckhouse done in a major rebuild about six or eight years ago, and that work probably cost quite a bit more than it would have to simply have built another one completely new. A lot of money for that much boat, but if you want to rub shoulders with the high and mighty at the NYYC, that's the price of admission, I suppose.

There's not much to see below on these old time class racers. They would built lightly and with Spartan accommodations. The furniture as designed is elegant in its simplicity, but not intended for "company." These were essentially large "day sailers" intended for racing only.

On 8/7/2022 at 12:29 PM, Jack12477 said:

Not much. I just spin mine a few times in a jar of water or thinner and anything left comes right off. Then wipe dry with paper towel or cloth rag.

Just make sure the paint-covered mixer is in the jar of water or thinner before you start spinning it. (Don't ask me how I know this!  )

For those who may be new to painting, it should be understood that most all "coatings," (paints and varnishes) will require "conditioning" before use. Paint that is "thick" is often an indication of good quality, since it is the pigment that causes the consistency and it's the pigment that's the most costly ingredient in the paint. Thin paint just contains more cheap solvent ingredients. Why anybody would buy thinned paint for airbrushing at the same price as thicker "regular" paint is beyond me.  It's sort of like buying a fifth of pre-mixed "bourbon and water" for the same price as a fifth of 80 proof!  

Paints, particularly, are almost never suitable for use "right out of the can" and will require "conditioning" regardless of whether it's to be applied by brushing or spraying, Conditioning usually at least consists of thinning, but can also include adding "levelers" or "retarders" which retard drying or "driers" which accelerate drying. Thinners for acrylics are generally water and alcohol in various proportions. (Adding water to acrylic coatings is often a bad move, since the water takes a while to evaporate and can end up making a mess. Alcohol is preferred, particularly for airbrushing, because it evaporates quickly.)

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Unlike Bob, I have not felt the need to use UV resistant glass, but I don’t live in sunny California😁.  I take careful measurements and let someone else cut the glass.  Cut single strength glass from Ace Hardware was inexpensive.

I have a set of those Craftsman molding cutters, too. I've found they work better than a router, too.  

I specify dimensions for the glass and have it on hand before I start to build the frame. It's a lot easier to cut the frame to fit the glass than to try to re-cut the glass to fit the frame! I  always keep models out of direct sunlight, but along the way I found that UV-shielded picture frame glass didn't cost a whole lot more than window glass.

6 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

Those works , unfortunately, do not go into very great detail about iron forge type of work that would be involved in making metal grommets or hooks or how one gets intertwined with the other.  Getting the strop on after that is the part that is done on board or in the rigging loft and is covered in those books.

 

Regards,

That's true. The books cited are for earlier rope-stropped blocks. The ship-smithing is obvious. a rod of suitable length would be formed with a pointed end and then bent to the shape of the hook desired. (The tip of the hook is bent outward from the shaft of the hook to hold the mousing as might be required to keep the hook from coming loose in use.) If used, thimbles would be attached to the hooks when the eye was formed. Thimbles are simply a section of metal tubing flared at either end. Thimbles were frequently made of soft metal such as copper or even lead, as their purpose was to prevent the chafing of the rope eye worked around the thimble. A block would be stropped with a strop large enough that the thimble could be secured to the strop by a throat lashing between the block and the thimble. Later metal stropped blocks would have a metal eye fashioned in the metal strop and a hook attached with a shackle. Blocks with hooks were in the minority, since the only need for a hook on a block would be for a block that needed to be disconnected on a regular basis such as for tackles.

As mentioned, there are various options for such construction, but the period will dictate which practices were most common at that time. 

Here's the "how to" from Ashley's Book of Knots which should answer some of your questions:

And this from Hervey Garret Smith's The Arts of the Sailor:

Everything you need to know about rigging of any period is in a book somewhere. Each period has its "go-to" reference volumes. You will find it very helpful to acquire whichever reference works are relevant to the period of the model you are building. (Most are available new or used in reprints and occasionally online PDF's.) Asking questions on internet forums may get you pointed in the right direction, but, if you think about it, if you don't know the answer, it's pretty hard to know whether the answer you get from an online "expert" is the correct one, isn't it?