woodrat

8 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

He goes on to say that because the size of a lateen sail can’t be adjusted (i.e. reefed) – it’s all or nothing - each galley carried three sets of sails of different sizes for different conditions.

This is what Michael of Rhodes said in the 15th century. They also could hook up a square sail for running if required.

M. Burlet I think is saying there are 2 ropes from the halyard block to the yard.

Looks like an interesting book. French is OK

Dick

Fantastic stuff, well researched. Does this imply two upper halyard blocks or one upper halyard block with two halyards leading off it. Could it be that the double pulley A 167 is the upper halyard block? This is a large vessel. This is the mizzen lateen from my venetian carrack showing a calcet with a single sheave

Thanks, Steven, food for thought.

Dick

10 hours ago, yancovitch said:

beyond me how you managed to get such detailed plans for that

Thanks Yancovitch and everyone else for all the likes. The hull framing is directly taken from the comprehensive excavation of a wreck from the Po delta called the Contarina 1. the master frame is taken from a contemporary manuscript, the Libro di Navigar ( see earlier posts for details). As for deck framing, the deck machinery and hatches follow logically from the position of masts but are largely a matter of speculation, especially the knees. No claim is made for  this vessel to be anything but a product of my imagination.

Steven, thanks for the calcet details. This will be useful. I haven't thought about it yet but there is also the problem of the basket aft of the masthead and the Jacob's ladder to be considered. The Lomellina was a square rigged nave wasn't she? Perhaps this calcet can be adapted for latin rig.

Cheers

Dick 

As requested, some overall views showing deck furniture. All that is remaining is the log pumps. Still not sure whether to plank half the deck

The companionway to the aft accommodation. Ladder to be added.

Cheers

Dick

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Any chance of a photo from a bit further away

Soon to come, Steven, but will do so in a day or so after more additions to deck furniture. 

Dick

My concept of the lower halyard blocks and bitts for the two masts.

Loosely based on a Black sea find. On contemporary iconography a consistent feature is the halyard angling acutely aft from the mast as is the practice in dhows.

This also allowed the halyards to act like backstays.

Cheers

Dick

Beautifully preserved wreck and a log pump AND capstan in situ. Wow! Note the transom timber at the stern with a round tuck stern and she is carvel. Not what I would expect from a northern ship of the era. that foremast is very forrard and stepped on the stempost. Fascinating find!

Dick

6 hours ago, cog said:

Simple ... When ever did you do anything simple?

Thanks.  Carl. Just call me Simplicius.

😎

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

Is there a particular reason for making it faceted?

 

Yes, Steven. I made it octagonal for 3 reasons:

1. The slots for the levers are on alternative facets, lessening risk of weakening the log.
2. When winding, it allows the winders on the opposite side to maintain the strain while the next lever is inserted. Thereby a rhythm is set up, no doubt with a shanty to go with it .
3. It looks good.
4. Dick 😎

I have made a simple windlass which is likely to be what they used in the 13th century. No pawls are needed as the windlass could be prevented from running backwards simply by one of the crew pushing his lever all the way through to the other side, effectively locking it.

Cheers

Dick

I am happy to help if I can. Don't be too discouraged if it all seems daunting. My first ship model "USF Essex " was way above my head but I took the time, researched the build and bought or made the tools. It took me 10 years but was worth it. Be prepared to modify the kit if it is inadequate or inaccurate. I have all the info you would need to make your model carrack as historically accurate as is possible. Don't be in a hurry. I look forward to your build.

Cheers

Dick

do you have a reference for this chain pump? I would have thought that simple log pumps would have been used at this time.

Dick

It occurred to me that there should be accommodation in the after part of the ship for passengers  and ship's master/pilot. Bit difficult to do it at this stage but I thought it important. So I retrofitted the quarters. Very basic accommodation (and no doubt cramped and smelly). The planking is only on the starboard side. I think there would be capacity for about 20 passengers in the steerage

Dick

4 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

. On the other hand, the captain of the caravel reconstruction Notorious told me he follows the Arabs in not bothering to move the yard across the mast, but just keeps it on the same "tack" with the wind blowing from the other side. This of course blows the sail against the mast, but apparently it makes very little difference.

 

 

 

Steven.

The mediaeval lateen rig had the sail OUTSIDE the shrouds so if your caravel friend is putting the sail aback against the mast , he must have the sail INSIDE the shrouds which is counter to mediterranean practice of the period you are dealing with ( see prof. Pryor's publications on the mediaeval lateen rig). I will try to get hold of Julian Whitewright's thesis on the mediaeval lateen rig as a basis for the rig of my round ship. The dhows mostly used a settee sail not a full lateen and so I would be cautious using dhows as a model for your rig. It is no longer accepted that lateen rig originated in the Indian Ocean as undoubted depictions of lateen sail rigs date from the second century CE.

the settee sail had the forward corner of the sail squared off

Your idea of goose-winging the sails while oars are deployed is good. The oars would provide some lateral stability when running before the wind.

I am enjoying the build immensely. Keep up the good work

Dick

In order to tack the mediaeval lateener, it was necessary to bring the yard vertical against the mast. I think your crutch forward of the foremast would impede that manoeuvre. Also the lower part of the yard needs to be shorter than the upper so it can clear the forecastle. The best illustrations of this manoeuvre are in Landstrom's "`The Ship". If you are going to depict rowers, are you going to stow the yards on the crutches?

Dick

On 6/8/2019 at 1:41 PM, cog said:

I wonder, would they have used knees in building at that time? The drawings I've seen from different Italian vessels do not show that "technique", but those probably aren't historical correct either

Carl, I have no idea. Wrecks of this period have no decks. The Black sea may tell us in time. At the end of the day, if I am not happy, I can fully plank the deck. There must have been some method of strengthening the deck around the mast partners and bitts to allow transmission of force.

Dick

Here is the framing of the mid portion of the deck including hatch and mizzen mast partner. It is largely guesswork

but I can assure you it is quite strong.

Dick

On 5/30/2019 at 7:17 PM, Louie da fly said:

there isn't any sort of cross-bar shown between them. So how could they support the yard anyway?

[Edit:] However, it's occurred to me that unlike a galley, a round ship is only likely to take its yards down when it's in port - the sails are its only motive power. So perhaps just a pair of sheers at each end of the hull would be all they'd use. Why have a permanent structure that wasn't used when the ship was at sea? Just a thought.[/Edit]

 

Steven

with regard to the "horns" at the stern, they are consistently shown with round knobs on top. This seems to suggest that the yards could be lashed to the horn, obviating the need for a cross piece.

I agree that in port they may have just used removable crutches. Smaller vessels may have taken yards and unstepped the masts, stowing them along the side as seen in the Breydenbach vessel on the left.

Dick

Love the crutches but I still think your spur is too long😓. But as long as you are happy with it, thats all that matters. Interestingly the undoubted dromons shown on the Annales de Genes show the spur well.

These are not dromons as there is only a single bank of oars

Dick 😊

6 hours ago, Mark Pearse said:

Hi Dick, (speaking as someone that is new to these craft) could it be that if the yards were to be lowered for a period, that they are just stowed on the deck & lashed down? If that's not too simple, & it doesn't mean that the crutches don't have a purpose.

The yards were too long to stow on deck and in the case of galleys, would get in the way of oarsmen. Lowered yards could also be used to drape awnings when in harbour.

Here is a picture from Breydenbach's Peregrinatio in Terram Sanctam 1486 (artist Reuwich) showing a small trading vessel being loaded through a removable bulwark. Note that quarter rudders are used with a swing mount but have been removed while in port. Note also that the other vessel has a massive stern rudder which would be very difficult to unship.

Dick

On 5/29/2019 at 8:45 AM, Louie da fly said:

 

An interesting detail is that the rudder is outside the "wings", which seems impractical and may also be artist error. There are also issues with how the "wings" relate to the transom at the stern - doesn't look right.

 

The pictures appeared in Bjorn Landstro"m's book The Ship, but without attribution. I've always wondered where they came from.

 

Steven

Thanks, Steven. I know this drawing well as it was used on the cover of prof. Pryor's book "Geography, technology and war" . Required reading for anyone interested in the maritime history of the mediterranean in the mediaeval period

I agree that the "horns" at the transom are wrongly drawn. They are probably meant to be lashed to the lowered yard. Question:

When the yard was lowered, in the absence of horns, what did the yards rest on? Removable crutches?

Alberto. I have reviewed all my images of the Black Sea vessel and I agree that there is definitely a gap in the starboard bulwark which is likely where a removable bulkhead was sited. I have put them on both port and starboard sides..

Cheers

Dick

6 hours ago, Binho said:

 

 

 

About a millennium too early, but the Roman 2nd Century CE Anse des Laurons 2 wreck also had a section of cut off frames topped with a sill, with the frames on either side of the sill having slots. This was interpreted by the archaeologists as being a removable bulwark section as well. Their line drawing is too nice not to share:

Perhaps it's not an unusual feature for earlier Mediterranean ships, it's just that superstructures are so rarely preserved archaeologically?

 

Alberto

Thanks, Alberto. The Laurons ship was one of the factors that persuaded me that removable bulwarks were often used. In addition the veneziano painting on which I base my reconstruction seems to show the coffin of St Mark being loaded across a gap in the bulwarks:

I will have to closely look at that feature on the Black Sea vessel you have pointed out. Well spotted.

Dick

16 hours ago, cog said:

Dick, Can you tell me the width of the hatch?

Including the coamings it is 67mm.  equating to 2.14 metres which is 6.2 venetian piede

Dick

11 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

 

 

By the way, I liked your hatches. Solid ones, because they didn't have to disperse cannon smoke (which is from what I've read, the reason for gratings in later hatch covers).

I am unaware of when gratings made their first appearance but have seen no evidence of them in the mediaeval period or earlier.

Dick

Steven. I found that tapering the wedges slightly from the outside to the inside allowed them to fit together more snugly. Then they are woolded.

The dromon is looking fine. Too late to use it as a bread basket.😊

Dick