AON

Gil, You are absolutely correct. We are our worst critics. You have no choice but to make it right for yourself because of all people you know it is there! I for one greatly appreciate your expertise and attention to details. Me bored? Not one iota! Thank you Alan

I figured out my rookie error last night and managed to get all my reference planes representing the shear, breadth, station body plans in place and labeled. Had to abbreviate the labels as I could not read them. I also changed the dimensional units to feet so it relates directly to my spreadsheet measurements. Below is the extremely minor progress I made .... my day job seems to take the wind out of my sails at night and early morning didn't seem to be much better for me... might have to give up the day job so I can get this done On a good note I received notice yesterday that my inter-library loan book came in: “The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860" by James Lee. Will be picking this up today. We have a stat holiday Monday (Family Day in Ontario) so over the three day weekend I hope to do better in the transferring of points and lines to the planes / plans.

Decided to draw what I can on the breadth and shear planes / plans so I can use these as reference when doing the individual body plans at each station. Started by drawing in the station locations and the dimensions didn't work out as compared to the spreadsheet. Each end is out of wack (too short or too long). This defies logic. Thought I might have got it reversed and ... nope. I must have made an error somewhere but it is early in the morning and time to get ready for the real work day. Have to revisit this in the evening and hope the error leaps off the screen when I am wide awake

Thank you Alex. I had slept on it and could not imagine any advantage to building with the keel sloped other than to mark the W.L. horizontal. I can easily make a jig to accomplish that ... but I wasn't certain if I might be missing something by not thinking outside of the box. I had decided on the Elephant as my primary source as it had the deck plans available. The Goliath will be my backup for any details that might be fuzzy. Your view on order of staging the drawing is not what I had intended... Now I'll have to rethink that. To me all the internal details seemed secondary (filler if you will) to the outside shell. I can see the advantage to getting the W.L. marked on the sheer plane (to assure they are properly located in the body planes) but admit I need to go back to those wonderful books I just acquired to make sure I understand and fully appreciate what you are telling me as many of the terms are not recognized by me as yet. This will change! This will be a delay in my progress a wee bit but might very well save me tons of aggravation down the road! If there any any other recommendations by you or others they are most welcome!! Alan

Thanks again! Would you think it would be smart to set up the model build at an angle so the waterlines were horizontal for the build? I got a wee bit of a second wind after supper and got a small start on the CAD side. I should mention I am doing all at this time in construction lines not object lines. I intend to copy the file as individual station numbers and then change the sketched lines to objects and build the 3D parts Then I will create an Assembly file and put them together. I may change this thinking as I progress ... have to see if it still makes sense.

What a learning experience this has been! Found the "stretch" in the drawing while measuring and had to go back and double check everything I did in the Shear Plan. I attribute it to the accuracy of a pencil plus the 250 years of storage. Had to compromise on a ratio and accept the fact that it will not be exact. Consoled myself with the fact the actual build likely was not exact either. Reworked my spreadsheet (see partial image below). I did some comparison to the Goliath plans and they seem very much the same although drawn by two very different draughtsmen. There are differences to be seen between the plans with regards to the railing over gun ports and railing height at these gun positions. Elephant rails rise over the two gun ports on each side and Goliath flows level over one and is cut away at the other. Possibly more to be found yet as I spend more time with them. One other thing that played with my mind was that the waterlines in the shear and body plans are sloped. I thought they'd be horizontal. Going to start my CAD drawing next but not today... my head hurts.

Completed collecting data from HMS Elephant shear and half breadth plans. Need the waterline heights yet. Will do same for HMS Goliath (tomorrow?) and compare just for the heck of it to see if there is much difference. I should be able to start transferring the data to CAD soon. I should also mention that in the PDF program settings I was able to lock the dimension tool to read perfectly horizontal or vertical so no math needed to be done!

Thank you Dave, I am familiar with engineering drawing prints stretching and have had heated discussions with the young'uns measuring directly off a print on the shop floor. No idea how 200+years distorts stuff so your warning is timely. I have been working on the measurements this afternoon. Completed the Buttocks Lines in the Shear Plan (almost looks like I know what I am talking about, eh?) and made adjustments so the overall dimension matches. Just now realized the program allows me to put a scale factor in so it corrects the measurement to full size automatically.... DUH! Working on the Waterlines in the Half Breadth Plan now.

My build log... back dated to what I consider my actual date of commencement up to today events. 31 Dec 2013 Found information on HMS Bellerophon on the internet which rekindled a spark. My interest in the Billy Ruffian stems from my joining #141 Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps Bellerophon of Welland Ontario Canada in 1967 at 12 and a wee bit years of age. I have not been involved in the cadet movement for over a quarter century now but those great memories haven't died away. 04 Jan 2014 Stumbled onto modelshipworld.com and after skulking about for an hour decided to join the group; intend to actually scratch build the first Bellerophon Looking at various Arrogant class build logs (Vanguard & Bellerophon kits) Looking at Victory and Bellona build logs Looking at tools, build methods and little tricks used Overwhelmed with the work done by others and information available; realize how little I know; determined to do my homework. My last (and only) scratch build was a 27 ft whaler. I was quite familiar with them (and the 30 ft. cutters) as I worked at the boat shed at HMCS Quadra for two summers. Found literature on rigging details on another site; looking for info on mast size details. Got info for plans from forum to order from NMM. Found four plans: HMS Arrogant (too early; they made changes to the design later) HMS Edgar (ordered well before but launched after Bellerophon) HMS Goliath (ordered after Edgar, launched before Bellerophon; should record the changes made from Edgar on) HMS Elephant (built same time as Bellerophon so may be the best plan). £60 each = $107 CDN ... pretty steep. E-mailed NMM to see if there was a “buy in bulk” price discount. These plans are about 3 ft x 7 feet each. Not sure where I can lay them out to use and NMM insists they cannot be copied (to make a working set and keep these clean). This presents a problem. I decided not to look at HMS Vanguard as it was the last of the ships built... well after the Bellerophon... and so might possibly have other changes. 11 Jan 2014 Realize if I download build photos and reference documents into folders from the FORUM and other sites and build my own reference library I will retain more of what I see in my memory (works for me as I am “hands on” type of learner). This has kept me busy! 15 Jan 2014 My ex CPO (a modeller by night and Mechanical Engineer in the Pulp and Paper industry by day) recommended “The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 by James Lee; Found on Amazon and Abesbooks.com, pretty pricey at $100+ Found on inter-library loan (Gateneau, Quebec, Government Library, 3 week duration, 3 renewals, no charge); this will allow me to decide (for free) if I should buy the book. Found Rigging Model Ships – A Practicum by Robert E. Hunt 2013 on forum www.lauckstreetshipyard.com at $119 … once again quite steep 16 Jan 2014 Discovered there are two different figureheads for the Bellerophon; Downloaded photographs to my reference library. The first has only the neck and head remaining but is said to have been a full body. The second was torso and head. I intend to recreate the first using the second for inspiration! 30 Jan 2014 Received a collection of modelling reference books purchased from a member of this site. Most turn out to be exactly what this sorrowful example of a modeler needs. Talk about an idiot`s luck! 08 Feb 2014 After some confusion (mostly on my part) I finally ordered and downloaded the TIFF ships plans from NMM. Decided on the TIFF image as it is the clearest possible and I do not have the room to layout 7 foot long plans. HMS Goliath, one image - lines HMS Elephant, two images - lines and deck plans It cost me £150 for the set of three (3) images. They gave me the three JPEG images (quoted at £50 a set) for free. There is a considerable difference in detail between the two types of files. I am not disappointed. TIFF images are 729Mb, 722Mb and 905Mb JPEG images are quite small (1Kb or less) at 300 DPI My PDF program (from which I can measure) will not open the TIFF images because they are too large for it and the JPEG images are too grainy. Converted the TIFFs to PDFs at 1200 x 1200 (Largest the program would allow) and they are very clear! Now I intend to get my measurements off the electronic images and redraw in Solidworks to be able to create templates. I will start my posting of images from here. Might be a while as I have to figure out quite a bit and the first step is always the hardest. Once I have the plans partially redrawn I can make a final decision regarding the scale of the scratch build and degree of finish or completeness as I will also have to decide where the final display resting place might be. I have stepped through to the dark side … no going back now, eh? Following photos are clips taken from my PDF program showing how I intend to get my measurements. I will use the scale provided on the drawings to convert my small measurements to full size. It is difficult to get a perfectly vertical or horizontal measurement so I will need to use some old fashion trig calcs to make corrections like the straw man said in the wizard of oz; record all data in excel and then transfer the info to Solidworks.

Wish this was around in the late 60's! What am I saying... there are Knots here I've never heard or dreamt of Definitely bookmarked Thanks for knot keeping it to yourself ! Alan

Newbee, I believe you have gotten over the first hurdle ... starting the build!!!! I am in no way or means the fellow to tell you what might be right or wrong but if it was possible to post a thumbnail of the plans some one might have a suggestion. The stern does seem to possibly be missing something. Have you searched the builds on this site for other 50 gun ships to see if they are in any way similar? Alan

looks darn good to me we used to step on the (real life size) splice and roll it on the deck under our boot to compress and tighten it up still have my spike but I think I'd use a needle at that scale!

Gil, My "engineering skills" may be the biggest hurdle as I find I am likely being far too anal (strict) in my thinking of my build. I intend to do a scratch build of the first HMS Bellerophon (which happens to be the ships badge you can't recognize... but it is for the last Bellerophon... the image is a Gryphon). Presently I am in my "planning stage", attempting to purchase the plans of HMS Goliath and Elephant as they are exactly the time of the Bellerophon and record the changes from the earlier versions. This I intend to redraw in 2D/3D and make my templates. Your assembled tutorial of the Victory will be an invaluable aid along with those kits of the Bellerophon (Vanguard) found on this site. Regarding ships served on... I have a very impressive list, that is until you stop and think about it: HMCS Cornwallis, HMCS Naden, HMCS Haida, HMCS Quadra. All "stone frigates" except for the most distinquished of all which is now a floating museum. I served (using the term extremely loosely) as a Sea Cadet (13 to 19 years old) then joined the Sea (Naval) Reserve on the Cadet Instructors List and later served as CO of #141 Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps Bellerophon, then the oldest corps in Canada by virtue of her Charter date (1917) having began as a Boys Naval Brigade. She was "decommissioned" a few years ago to the displeasure of many of the old crew. Politics. I now seem to be rambling (as old folks do) and so once again say thank you so very much for such a wonderful diversion from my daily headaches. It is so beautiful and fills my dreams at night. Alan

What a fantastic ride this has been for me! I have learned so much with your photos and particularly those few that had labels (tags) added into them. Thank you very much and BZ Doc! Alan

'Doreltomin': Indeed they are the same book and same table! Looking at your link to Wikipedia, it gives examples of the foot measurement having been standardized at even an earlier time (Henry III) and becoming 11/12ths of what it had been. My understanding is the metric system nailed everything down and created a world wide standard where no one could be short changed. After all a foot was originally the measurement of the length of a standard foot... I wear a size 11 so if I were to measure something I might get more of it than my very good friend and neighbour Pierre who wears a size 9-1/2 An inch was the width of the thumb. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and it were to become swollen.... you get my point. The Merchant I am sure would find a way to use the system to his advantage. I believe the French established the standard to eliminate the confusion and did indeed find the average English foot to be what was reported, equal to 308 mm in their new and improved international system of measurement (SI units) and then in there "right and might" of the time decided they would re-invent it to be 304.8 mm. After all Napoleon did have very high aspirations! Alan

I just acquired a slew of invaluable reference books from a member and while looking through one book (Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Mondfeld, pg 66) I stumbled onto a chart of historical units of measure. The unit of measure was standardized across the board with the introduction and acceptance of the metric system in 1799. (no surprise to me) Many countries were using the foot (and inch) as their unit of measure but the actual distance that comprised a foot differed between various countries. (again no surprise to me) What surprised me was to learn that the English foot (12 inches) was established to have been (on average?) 308.0 millimetres prior to this date. Today (as of the standardization made in 1799) it is 304.8 mm ............... a difference of 3.2 mm shorter than earlier dates. This doesn't seem like much but a ship measuring 168 feet long in 1786 might be 168 x 3.2 = 537.6 mm = 21 (and a wee bit) inches longer today using the measuring stick of that day! One of them hemmm moments. Here I thought the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calender in 1582 might have mixed up a few historical dates. Alan

What you outline above might work... give it a try! For me I think using "construction lines" and fixed "points" to then use the lofting feature might be best Some day soon I expect I will be trying this myself so I would not know for sure until then Having one master file for the 3D lofting (all construction lines) and then save it as another file multiple times to create the individual parts from (change select construction lines to object line then extrude the shape for the individual part) then a final assembly file to assembly the individual parts in to build the 3D model might be my approach This would be a lot extra work compared to what I believe you are trying to accomplish but the finished fitted 3D model part files could then be used as templates for an actual build Again, I have to say I have not done this yet so it is just in my humble opinion, untried and unproven. Alan

finding this interesting attached are images from BR67 Manual of Seamanship 1937 VOL 1 reference to describe clinker, carvel or diagonal built boats Alan

I can see by the work so far this will be one to watch!

Grant I just download that excellent paper by Wayne you provided the link to above. Thank you (now I have even more homework)

DraftSight is a free downloadable CAD program that can be easily used by any junior draughtsman to create 2D drawings I have it at home and we use it at the office

Another incredibly awesome build and log. I aspire to be 1/4 as good as this if I should live so long. (my darling wife is going to be so upset with the amount of time I'll be spending here) Alan

Absolutely awesome ! Alan