Revenge by Emelbe - Amati/Victory Models - 1/64 scale

[donrobinson]

Hey Martin good to see you back. That "precious Paper" sure changes the looks I love it. I just took my Pegasus kit down from the shelve last night thinking I would start it next but now I am having second thoughts.

 Congrats on your windfall, I did the same when I got my retirement windfall this year and "tooled up". I bought the Proxxon table saw for the same reason you are thinking(shipping charges and also exchange) it is a fairly good saw but you are limited as far as accessories go ie: blades and attachments. After buying the Byrnes disc sander and thickness sander I wish I would have sucked it up and bought the table saw also.

  I am not familiar with Toolco so can't speak on that, however, Brian(from this forum) turned me onto Sherline tools, they have excellent tools, I bought their mill and lathe and am really impressed them. And what is really great about them is they have a full line of accessories, it is worth while checking out.

 Well I hope this helps spend your windfall

[Emelbe]

Hi Don

 

How's things?  Thanks for the reply.  Haven't heard of Sherline before but have looked them up.  Nice looking machines and will do a bit more research before making any commitment.  The thing that attracted me to the Toolco was the list of standard accessories shipped with the lathe, got 3/4 jaw chucks, fixed and travelling steadies, indexed tool-posts all standard with the machine, the only thing I will probably order with it (if I order it) is the self centring 4 jaw chuck, and revolving centre, and some tools of course.  The machine is bigger and has a 26mm spindle bore which is a plus when it comes to masts etc.  Still waiting for the final quote but should come in all round around the £1200-£1400 mark GBP, slightly more than I originally wanted to pay but If I get my use out of it it will be worth it. 

The Jury's still out on the Byrnes stuff, definitely on the wish list but shipping to Jersey may as well be to Outer Mongolia, difficult enough getting UK products shipped.

Fortunately I'm not in a rush, so I'll probably enforce a self cooling off period before I get the card out.

Why the second thoughts about 'Pegasus'?  Not a bad back-up sitting on the shelf.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[gjdale]

Martin,

 

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents on your "tooling up". Living in Australia, I too have to contend with horrendous shipping costs and unfavourable exchange rates. But I decided to bite the bullet and buy the Byrnes saw and disc sander, and the Sherline lathe and mill. And I don't regret a single cent they cost me. All of them are a joy to use. Remember the old saying, "quality is remembered long after price is forgotten". Also, Sherline offer a range of packages for both lathe and mill, and (I think) a combination of both. The Sherline range of accessories seems almost endless too!

 

By the way, lovely build you have going here!

Edited September 18, 2015 by gjdale

[Emelbe]

Hi Grant

 

Thanks for the post.  I can see this is going to cost me more than I thought!!!  The Byrnes stuff is definitely tempting me, might have to bite the bullet and send them an e-mail, trouble is if I go for the Table saw I know I'll buy the thickness sander and disc sander as well.  The excuse to the boss will be cheaper on shipping of course!  I've had a look at the Sherline lathe and mill and to be honest theres not a lot of difference price-wise between the Toolco stuff (they also do several milling machines as well). The main reason I'm looking at Toolco is that the machine is larger and quite robust, and comes equipped with most of the accessories as Standard.  The Jurys still out on the milling machine, do I go for Proxxon (the cheaper option) or do I say in for a penny in for a pound and go for something more high spec? It's a bloody minefield out there!  

Bye the way, thanks for you kind words about the boat (almost forgot about it)

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Apollo]

Hi Martin,

 

I'm really astounded how quickly your build is progressing! At that pace, it would not have come out anywhere near as well for me. Your Revenge is looking even better than the prototype. Granted, this is a kit and not a scratch build, but compared to my own progress it seems you already have the power tools handy, LOL. Would the tools you're looking at greatly improve building a model from kit since most of the parts are already pre-cut or supplied? I'm tempted as well, but would prefer to spend the resources on another kit (possibly a second Amati Revenge) knowing that I don't have the ability to create a quality model from scratch yet.

 

What are you considering for your next project, another kit or something from scratch? Very interested to know more on your thoughts about the masts now that you started on the rigging.

[Emelbe]

Hi Apollo

 

Nice to hear from you, how are you keeping.  I don't think I'm a quick builder, it's probably I don't make quite as many mistakes as I used to (either that or I've just got better at hiding them).  With regard to the tools I'm planning on buying, to be honest it's more of a promise I made to myself years ago that if I ever had the opportunity I would at least buy myself a decent lathe, I can tinker around for hours on one.  As it happens the little windfall was totally unexpected, I didn't even realise there was a pension attached, so I'll take it as a sign (any excuse), big boys toys!!!

What am I going to do with them?  I've actually got a little yearning to design a model of one of our locally built boats (Jersey has quite a rich maritime history) will need to do the research at the Maritime Museum but it could be quite an interesting project.

The masts are straightforward, the bowsprit I tapered with a sharp chisel by hand and rounded it in my old Unimat, a power drill will do the same job (ah, thats why I need the lathe!!!).  I'm probably going to do a separate post on the masts at a later date, quite a fun project.  I'm just working on the bulwarks and capping rails at the moment, although I say it myself it's really starting to come together now. 

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[augie]

She's looking magnificent.  Well done, mate!

[Emelbe]

Hi Augie

 

Having looked at your builds I'll gladly accept that as praise indeed.  Many thanks

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Apollo]

Hi Martin,

 

I'm doing quite well, although I'm only at the point of the build where all the lower decks are planked. It's very slow going, I can only devote about 2-3 hrs a day at most and I'm overly methodical about everything to my detriment. The changes and revisions I've made slowed the pace to a crawl and it looks like I won't make the target date I've set, which was around the end of the year holiday season. In retrospect, that was a highly optimistic and unrealistic goal. It's all good though, the setbacks have a silver lining in that they allowed me to rethink and alter the direction of the project for a better outcome.

[Emelbe]

Hi Apollo

 

Know the feeling.  Probably the hardest part of modelling is knowing when to walk away and start agin the following day.  I've actually got plenty of time now I'm retired but I do try not to over do it.  I try not to give myself deadlines, but I think probably another 2 1/2 to 3 months should see the project finished (realistically), which should take me towards Xmas, but we'll see.  See how the rigging goes.  

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Emelbe]

Hi All

 

Here we are again.  Don’t know why but progress has seemed slow since the last post, but at last I think I’ve now reached the interesting stage where I can start adding detail to the model.

 

I finished planking the bulwarks apart from a little bit at the stern, mainly because I haven’t figured out how I want to do it yet, then on to the capping rails.  Seemed to take an age but was worth taking my time with, the hull looks so much nicer now all the gaps and joins are covered up.

 

 

 

 

 

I followed up with the etched brass door frames and doors, and stern window framing.  I started by spraying the frames yellow with acrylic, then hand painted the doors with brown enamel, not so much by choice (I’m not the biggest fan of Humbrol) but I went to the shop to get some green for the Stern Gallery and Prow and completely forgot the brown.  I think I’ve mentioned before, the paint I’ve been using is from the Citadel range, it’s the first time I’ve tried spraying it but it went on beautifully, thinned with water and the tiniest amount of washing up liquid to break the surface tension.  The hinges and door handles I blackened using Birchwood Casey Brass Black.

 

 

 

 

Now the job I’ve seemed to be putting off, the lower three whales.  The lower most whale I spent quite some time bending so it would lay flat against the hull, and once I was happy with the fit, I sprayed them using the Citadel Chaos Black aerosol before fitting (I can’t recommend it highly enough).  I also fit the hawse hole boards at the bow, bit nerve racking drilling the holes.

 

 

That’s about where I am at the moment, so its on with the stern gallery and prow before I tackle the deck fittings etc. 

 

 

Couple of little asides, went to a car boot sale last weekend, picked up a couple of little gems, a set of travel sized ceramic hair straighteners, forget the commercial plank benders thats the way to go, just damp the wood and run it through the tongs and a perfect curve. The other was a cribbage board, I can think of a hundred and one uses for it, everything from a drying rack to a bending jig to a rigging stand, I’m sure you’ll see it pop up quite often during the build log. And finally all 22 volumes of the Seafarer book series all in mint condition. The whole lot less than £20, (just love bargains).  I’ve added a couple of photos of these in action, the reason they work so well is I’m getting even heat on both sides of the wood (the cribbage board is metal faced so it retains the heat).

 

 

 

 

 

Second little aside, I’ve ordered my machines, and yes, I have gone the Byrnes route, and yes, I’ve ordered the disc sander and thicknesser as well. Think Xmas is coming early this year.

 

[Richard Griffith]

Hi Martin, very nice build, she is looking great~!  English built galleons have always fascinated me, especially the Golden Hinde.......

 

And interesting uses of the curling iron and metal cribbage board.  I will have to keep a weather eye out for the iron, and perhaps make my own metal board .

 

Duff

[Emelbe]

Hi Duff

 

Cheers mate.  It was funny when we were walking around the boot sale, my better half asked why I needed some hair straighteners when I'm going thin on top, and why I wanted a cribbage board when I don't play cards!!!

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Emelbe]

Hi All

 

Seems like an age since I last posted, but I have been a bit tied up redesigning and fitting out my workshop (spare bedroom) ready for my new machines.  

 

I’ve been working on the stern gallery, prow section, chainplates and adding the etched brass decorations.  The Stern Gallery and Prow were pretty straightforward, just a case of fitting, painting and adding the edging strips. I know I’m nit picking but the edging strip is 1 x 2 mm and there wasn’t quite enough supplied with the kit, fortunately I did have some spare which saved the day.  The paint I used was the Citadel ‘Loren Forest’ which is an absolutely perfect match with the green in the decorative patterns.  The prow side pieces I’ve just held in place with double sided sticky tape for the time being, I’ll fix them permanently once the bowsprit is in place and the gammoning is done, just gives me a little bit more room to work on the rigging.

 

 

 

 

 

The etched brass decorations look pretty good once in place, although I’m not 100 per cent sure about the coat of arms at the stern, the ‘animals’ (not sure what they are) look a bit two dimensional.  I’m not sure how my non-existent sculpting skills would match up to my expectations, so I decided to go with the brass one supplied, perhaps resin ones may have been better?

 

The chainplates were then fitted, and are quite solid with the support brackets attached, I know I’m tempting fate but I didn’t think it was necessary to dowel them for extra strength.  The brass bits were blackened and fitted with no great problem apart from the usual struggle to get them on to the deadeyes.  All the deadeyes were secured using the etched brass straps pinned to the whales, just a case of measuring with dividers or compass and bending in the right place.

 

I think the next job will be the cannons. I’ll probably build a little ‘mock-up’ to see how one looks as I’m still unsure about the carriages supplied.  I have actually found a decent picture of the type used during that period in one of the books I bought the other week and I suppose they’re not too far off. 

 

A quick update, the lathe and milling machine has arrived and are now (after a struggle - bloody heavy, I owe a couple of friends quite a few beers) in place.  Probably, for model ship building they are an overkill, as they are quite large.  Having said that I’m glad I went for that size as there’s not much I won’t be able to tackle with them in the future, I’m highly delighted.  I’ve uploaded a photo of my workroom, please don’t think I’m trying to show off, but it’s the first time in my life I’ve ever had anywhere half decent to work before, can’t believe my luck.  Don’t know how long it will stay as clean.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Martin

 

 

[donrobinson]

Good morning Martin, the Revenge looks absolutely beautiful. Looks as though you have yourself a wonderful work area there congratulations!! What make is your lathe looks as though it has a digital readout, very nice. Now it will be time to accessorize the mill and lathe. You are going to have some great times in that space 

[Blue Ensign]

Nice progress Martin she's looking very smart indeed.

 

It is a shame if Amati have been up to their old tricks again by including non realistic generic guns in what is otherwise a splendid model. I'm sure Chris Watton had designed new guns specifically for the Revenge, but my memory may be playing me false.

 

I had to dispense with their 'bronze'  guns on my Pegasus kit.

 

ps: The arms of Elizabeth Ist are a Lion rampart and a  Welsh Dragon. I recognise the Lion on the left of the arms and the creature on the right does have a dragons tail.

 

Her motto was Semper Eadem (always the same) - obviously adopted by Amati in relation to their kit guns.

 

B.E.

[Emelbe]

Hi Don

 

Thanks for the kind words.  The Lathe and Mill are from a company called Toolco Ltd, I think the machines are derivatives of Sieg, very nicely built and finished and also quiet.  The machines actually ship with quite a few accessories as standard which is what attracted me to them, but I did get some additional ones when I ordered the machines.  The ones for the milling machine were a decent milling vice, a set of end mills and a rotary table, the lathe I got a keyless drill chuck, centre drills, lathe tools, revolving centre and a self centring 4 jaw chuck which is great for working with square section.  I've tried it out already and it's spot on.  I'm really looking forward to working with them, there's so much you can do with these machines, and it shouldn't be too much of a learning curve as I was apprentice trained on general machine tools etc.  just have to jog my memory a bit.

 

Just waiting for a couple of bits from Byrnes and my little world will be complete, the boss will be telling me to move my bed in next!!!

 

Cheers

 

Martin 

[Emelbe]

Hi Blue Ensign,

 

I know what you mean about the generic guns. I think I can probably live with the 'bronze cannon', and possibly the carriages as that type was in it's infancy at the time of the Armada before the Royal Navy did it's MacDonalds job of standardisation.  Thanks for the info regarding the crest, heraldry isn't one of my strongpoints I'm afraid.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Apollo]

Hi Martin,

 

Looking at your Revenge with its nearly completed hull reminds me why I chose this kit above all the others I was considering at the time. It is truly a beautiful model, its appearance is breathtaking. You did a masterful job.

 

Regarding the coat of arms, they are correct in representation and exactly what Blue Ensign stated the figures are. The Welsh dragon was a Tudor symbol and never used again after Elizabeth I, since the Tudor dynasty ended with her reign. Regarding the relief, I'm not sure if 16th Century galleons even approaching the 1600s had much if any stern carvings. It is very possible the coat of arms could have been merely painted and I believe that on some ships it was. For the Revenge, I would not expect anything beyond a low relief if even that, but we're likely never to know. I think heavy decorative elements such as high relief carvings on sterns did not become common for English ships until several decades afterwards, well into the Jacobean Era if not later. Moreover, the arms if they were actually carved would likely have been painted anyway, not gilded, if I'm not mistaken. Gilded stern carvings are also something that became commonplace with the abundant adornments of the following century. On Elizabethan ships, emphasis of decoration was on the painted hull. So, I believe Amati is not that displaced from historical reality here but I welcome more informed opinions.

[Apollo]

It is a shame if Amati have been up to their old tricks again by including non realistic generic guns in what is otherwise a splendid model. I'm sure Chris Watton had designed new guns specifically for the Revenge, but my memory may be playing me false.

 

I had to dispense with their 'bronze'  guns on my Pegasus kit.

 

ps: The arms of Elizabeth Ist are a Lion rampart and a  Welsh Dragon. I recognise the Lion on the left of the arms and the creature on the right does have a dragons tail.

 

Her motto was Semper Eadem (always the same) - obviously adopted by Amati in relation to their kit guns.

 

Hi Blue Ensign,

 

Looking at the cannon in my kit I'm almost certain they are not era-specific, even if that is what Chris may have set out to accomplish at the onset. They seem to resemble those found in other Amati kits, but not being in possession of another, I cannot say with absolute certainty. Unless one is highly knowledgeable about naval armament of the period, I think they should do fine for an Elizabethan galleon. However, if you have a source for a more historically accurate item in the right scale, I'm definitely interested.

 

I'm not overly concerned about the historical accuracy of this kit though, because we'll simply never know without plans, paintings or actual components of the Revenge being discovered. The entire kit as with most kits, is hypothetical and largely based on material of contemporary ships with similar dimensions. For example, I recently came across information that claimed most English galleons of this era did not have stern galleries! Yet, there isn't a single Elizabethan galleon kit I've ever seen without one including my ancient Scientific Golden Hind. Now, I can't verify if this info is true or not, but it reveals how much is not known with certainty about both the appearance and to some extent the fitting of these ships.

 

That said, I have made some changes to this kit in an attempt to increase 'realism' as much as can be accomplished without going wild with aftermarket items and materials. I have some additional ideas that I might go ahead with in later stages as well, depending on how much time I want to invest for the project. Unfortunately, this has involved a great deal of research amounting to as much reading as actual building. A lot of information from this period is rather vague or incomplete but I've limited my research to online resources at the moment. The few books I own concentrate on the history of naval architecture of the post-Elizabethan eras and therefore of limited relevance to this kit.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Apollo

[Emelbe]

Hi Apollo

 

Well, what can I say, apart from thanks for the kind words and history lesson, I've definitely learned something.  I have to confess I have been a bit lazy when it came to researching the ships of that period, and in truth we'll probably never know exactly how these vessels looked.  I do know that the firepower from the more 'portable' gun carriages gave the English the edge over the Spanish fleet through watching several documentaries on the subject, and we can safely say how the cannon looked through archaeological finds, but the rest is supposition.  In a way, for modelling purposes, this is good because it allows us to put our own interpretation on things without getting too bogged down on historical accuracy.  

I think the attraction of this kit/ship is not the detail, but the overall beauty and aesthetics of its lines.  I'm still in two minds how far to go with the cannon, do I fully rig them or do I just show the breeching lines as in the prototype?, and in honesty by the time the masts and yards are fitted and the 'spiders web' of rigging completed will it matter?  I think this is part of the fun of modelling and possibly the subject of a new thread, 'how far do we go with our models and what do we want to achieve from them'.  Food for thought?

 

Cheers

 

Martin 

[Blue Ensign]

The Revenge is a model that appeals to me, partly as a change from the eighteenth century vessels I have been involved with over the past few years, and the challenge of the different rigging practices of the era.

Hopefully I'll get around to it 'ere long.

Guns of the second half of the sixteenth century were quite an eclectic mix, majority probably of brass or bronze with some iron guns and with a much greater number of types than became standardised later.

Those Amati guns certainly look more the part on a model like Revenge than say a ship of two hundred years later and would probably serve as the heavier guns such as the Demi-Cannon,  Culverins, and Demi-Culverins.

Presumably Amati supplied smaller versions to represent the Sakers that would be placed on the Upper deck.

Other ordnance that is to be found on ships of the era would be the breech loading Port pieces, Fowlers, Bases, and Falcons, but I can't imagine that Amati have considered those.

An interesting book relating to the period is Galleon The Great Ships of The Armada Era, by Peter Kirsch.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

[Emelbe]

Hi B.E.

 

Thanks for your comment. The armament Amati have provided are two sizes of Cannon and their standard brass culverins.  I'm working on the upper deck cannon at the moment and they don't look too bad on the ship as provided.  I quite agree they would be no good on an 18/19th century ship but they certainly represent the 'character' of the Elizabethan period.

Having looked at your build logs several times and your extraordinary work on the Pegasus, I know you have an exceptional eye for detail, but I think I have to remind myself why I wanted to build this particular model, and that is I simply liked it when I first saw the prototype.  I'm a little wary of getting bogged down at the moment, now I have so many distractions with my new toys, my wish list has doubled over the past couple of days.  I think my main aim is to finish the model to a standard that satisfies me, and there's still quite a way to go yet.  I can always come back to bits at a later stage, as you have with Pegasus.  I might be picking your brain in the very near future on some of your rigging techniques, if you don't mind, that's going to be the next big challenge for me.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

From the work you've  done so far Martin, I think most of us, and certainly me, would be well satisfied with the standard of your build, and like you I was attracted to this kit when I first saw it - maybe when Pegasus is finished..........

 

I will continue to follow your build with great interest.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

[Apollo]

Hi Apollo

 

Well, what can I say, apart from thanks for the kind words and history lesson, I've definitely learned something.  I have to confess I have been a bit lazy when it came to researching the ships of that period, and in truth we'll probably never know exactly how these vessels looked.  I do know that the firepower from the more 'portable' gun carriages gave the English the edge over the Spanish fleet through watching several documentaries on the subject, and we can safely say how the cannon looked through archaeological finds, but the rest is supposition.  In a way, for modelling purposes, this is good because it allows us to put our own interpretation on things without getting too bogged down on historical accuracy.  

I think the attraction of this kit/ship is not the detail, but the overall beauty and aesthetics of its lines.  I'm still in two minds how far to go with the cannon, do I fully rig them or do I just show the breeching lines as in the prototype?, and in honesty by the time the masts and yards are fitted and the 'spiders web' of rigging completed will it matter?  I think this is part of the fun of modelling and possibly the subject of a new thread, 'how far do we go with our models and what do we want to achieve from them'.  Food for thought?

 

Cheers

 

Martin 

Hi Martin,

 

I honestly don’t know all that much about naval history compared to others on this forum, but I have read a good deal since my youth although not on a continuous basis. It has been decades actually, and much of what I had previously known is now forgotten or in the process of being relearned. Lately, I have delved deeply into the matter per my requirements for this project. I didn’t expect anywhere near this amount of research but this kit warrants it. It’s that good and deserving of the best from the builder.

 

The English had an advantage over other nations’ navies for a very long time, basically from the Armada to Trafalgar, which comprises several centuries; arguably, all the way until the maturity of the American Navy sometime in the 1800s. The advantage was largely attributable to superior firepower from better gunmanship. If you recommend any documentaries to look for concerning the Armada besides the excellent one mentioned earlier in the thread, I’d want to watch it.

 

I totally agree with your sentiments about the aesthetics of this model being the greatest draw over the stock detail level. It really exemplifies the ‘race-built’ galleon with its sleek lines in a fast sports car sort of way. One can always add or subtract the amount of detail to any model and make changes where one desires. This model has great potential for those who are master builders. I sometimes regret not having completed several additional models before attempting this one, not out of inadequate experience, but knowing that my work would have been that much better and more worthy of this kit. As of now, I’m quite satisfied with the results but I have not yet tackled the more difficult stages.

 

Concerning the cannon, I think you should at least rig them partially (option 1) with the breeching lines. The more advanced option might be a tad busy for the smaller cannon on the upper decks, I'm undecided about this. Keep in mind that even the more advanced option 2 is simpler than real life would likely have been. The problem encountered by rigging cannon with many kits is the out of scale blocks provided for the task requiring purchasing appropriate ones. After browsing many completed kits over the years, it becomes apparent that manufacturers often supply incorrect scales of components for rigging cannon. I haven’t closely looked at the parts supplied by Amati and cannot tell from the pictures because Chris rigged the prototype employing the simplified option which doesn’t utilize any blocks. I’m thinking of purchasing additional blocks no matter the case, because it doesn’t seem that Amati has provided a sufficient number if one desires to increase the detail level of the mast/sail rigging, which is more important to me than almost anything else. I’ll have to see about this, it won’t be until next year at my leisurely pace, LOL.

 

On a more philosophical note... in my opinion the level of detail a builder should provide for any model is dependent on two major criteria: skill and scale. If you have the time and patience and sufficient experience to spend on either, add as much detail as you want. Ultimately, the scale of the model should "ideally" be the limiting factor, and I am one of those people who believe there is a limit for everything. The Delphic maxim, moderation in everything, excess in none, comes foremost to mind when discussing detail. We’re not working on infinite fractals after all, but works of fine art. I find high detailing such as treenailing every plank as on real ships, actually takes away from a model rather than enhancing it, unless provided to models with scales of ~1/48 or greater. There are exceptions of course, but those are exceptional models. Looking at the completed decks on both our models and I cannot imagine how treenailing them could possibly improve their appearance. Maybe some will disagree and I respect all opinions. It’s a very personal thing and will not belabour it further. There’s already a thread on this subject over here and worth a read even if one disagrees with some of the posts. Opinions vary greatly it seems.

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Apollo

[Apollo]

The Revenge is a model that appeals to me, partly as a change from the eighteenth century vessels I have been involved with over the past few years, and the challenge of the different rigging practices of the era.

Hopefully I'll get around to it 'ere long.

Guns of the second half of the sixteenth century were quite an eclectic mix, majority probably of brass or bronze with some iron guns and with a much greater number of types than became standardised later.

Those Amati guns certainly look more the part on a model like Revenge than say a ship of two hundred years later and would probably serve as the heavier guns such as the Demi-Cannon,  Culverins, and Demi-Culverins.

Presumably Amati supplied smaller versions to represent the Sakers that would be placed on the Upper deck.

Other ordnance that is to be found on ships of the era would be the breech loading Port pieces, Fowlers, Bases, and Falcons, but I can't imagine that Amati have considered those.

An interesting book relating to the period is Galleon The Great Ships of The Armada Era, by Peter Kirsch.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

Hi Blue Ensign,

 

Thanks very much for the book recommendation. It's hard to find a good book concentrating on the galleon. With all the books I have been adding to my list of future purchases lately, the collection will have me reading for years. I glanced at your Pegasus build thread and was floored by the rigging attention to detail. Stunning to say the least. Since rigging is my favorite part of the build, I might also have to pick your brain eventually when I get to that stage. The sails in particular I'm having trepidation about getting right. These are going to be with bonnets; the lateens and courses will have them. If you have no issue with later rigging practices you should find that galleon rigging, although somewhat different than later periods, is less complex than 18th century rigging convention, for example, despite the additional mast in this model. There are a lot less sails for one thing. Rigging became steadily more complex until the steamship arrived when there was a shift from fully square-rigged vessels to an increasingly more simplified fore-and-aft arrangement to reduce crew compliment.

 

Well, as far as the cannon are concerned, there are only two sizes for armament in this kit, unfortunately. They look identical except for size. I can’t tell for sure which gun class they supposed to represent. I know that the larger vessels in the English Navy of 1588 definitely had more than two types on board. The highest armed decks might have had lighter guns than the pieces designated for those decks in this kit, because the same units are used for the main deck and the quarter deck above it. Another thing that might deviate from reality is that even on the same deck, there may have been more than one size present on English galleons of that time. Thus, it’s more of a challenge to strive for full authenticity than ships of later, more recent centuries where information is abundant. If one yearns for these kinds of challenges in an already fantastic kit, then this model is ideal.

 

The 1500s and early 1600s were a time of rapid change in naval architecture, similarly to what occurred during the 1800s albeit to a significantly lesser degree, but there was a pronounced transitional period. Many aspects of ship design were in the process of transformation then. This forum seems to focus on model ships of the 18th century from the threads I've been browsing lately, or most individuals here are interested in this century above other periods. My focus lies primarily between the 1560s and 1660s, give or take a few years, notably at or near the turn of the 16th and 17th centuries. I like the high stern look and rigging styles prior to the introduction of jibs and stay sails with an aesthetic preference for four masts. I find in later centuries, ships had an overly 'razeed' look, not to mention the staidness of naval design incurred by a drastic reduction in ornamentation also mandated for weight reduction and improved handling. Some like this, I lean towards the former eras. Although I fully understand the rationale behind the evolution of ship design during later periods, I hunger for the passion and artistic liberty of late Renaissance navies. There was nothing like it before or since.

[Richard Griffith]

Hi Martin, nice machinery!  Once you understand how and what they do, you will have even more fun.

 

Ships in Scale published 2 articles on the Golden Hinde, researched by Raymond Aker, (d. 2008) .  Mr Aker also developed plans for her and included rigging, ordnance and hull details that you might find useful for your build.  The issues are Mar/Apr 2008 and May/Jun 2008.

 

Duff

[Emelbe]

Hi Duff

 

Thanks for the tip about Ships of Scale, to be honest I've never looked at their site as its not a popular magazine over here, looks interesting.

Looking forward to getting stuck in with the machines, its all come flooding back to me now, once learned never forgotten.  Was funny the other night when I was talking to a friend of mine, he was trying to wind me up about them (and nearly succeeding). When he asked why, and what I was going to do with them I replied, 'same as you when you bought your XJS Jaguar to run around an island 9 miles by 5 miles with a 30 mph speed limit'.  I'm sure I'll get more mileage out of them than he will out of his car (posing b********).

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Emelbe]

Hi Apollo

 

You definitely know your history!!!  It is all relevant though, I haven't read all the thread about 'how much detail' yet but I'll put my two pennyworth in.  If I wanted to make an 'exact replica' of a ship, then I would research it myself thoroughly and probably draw up my own plans (if none were available), it would be at least 1:48 scale or larger, and I would make every part myself.  With kit builds I think any additional detailing would be to enhance supplied parts I can't particularly live with ( a lot of manufacturers put commercialism before absolute accuracy) such as the Amati Cannons as an example, or to rectify any glaring error.  I personally think there are two arguments regarding absolute authenticity, one is the side of 'The devil's in the detail' and many take that approach, the other is how much time do you want to devote to one project.  I've done it myself, in the days when I used to build the odd plastic model I would spend hours buying and fitting aftermarket products to enhance the cockpit of a plane etc. only to bury them when the canopy went on, never to be seen again.  I would spend so long on this that the project started to wear thin and I would either rush to finish it or, on occasion, scrap it altogether.  

I think the whole topic is subjective, I had a major rethink to my approach when I decided to start modelling again, and now before I start building I ask myself 'why am I building this' and 'what do I want to achieve from it'.  Any completed model is an achievement, no matter what the standard, and at the end of the day your own skills improve every model you build.  I think I've said before, model ship building is a lifelong apprenticeship.  Anyway, enough of that, I could talk for hours on the subject, got cannons to fit!

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Emelbe]

Hi All

 

Things have been a bit slow again this week as I’m still trying to sort my workroom out, but I did manage to get the cannons completed.

 

I was originally in two minds whether to fully rig the cannon or just rig the breeching ropes, but I finally decided to go for the latter.  The carriages are one piece milled wood which look a bit chunky, but after fitting a couple of rigging eyes and the straps that hold the cannon, don’t look too bad.

 

 

For the rigging I used what I think are called ‘Zip seizing’, a nice little tip from the ‘Ship Modelling for Dummy’s’ website (well worth subscribing to).  If anyone is unfamiliar with them, it’s simply thread wound around a suitable diameter bar and soaked with cyano, I use the dead cheap stuff you can buy by the gallon and is usually only good for sticking fingers.  Once removed you have a nice tube which you can run your thread through.  A little tip, I found that if you clean the bar with fine grade wire wool and rub the tiniest amount of beeswax on before making the seizing, they come off dead easy.  For the length of the breeching rope I made up a little jig.  I’ve added some images to give you the idea.

 

 

 

 

The carriages are dowelled to the deck with a toothpick and that’s about it. 

 

 

 

So, short but sweet, I’m hoping this time next week the hull will be all about there.  Then it’s on to the masts, yards and rigging.

 

Cheers

 

Martin