Hr. Ms. O 19 1938 by Piet - FINISHED - scale 1:50 - submarine of the Royal Navy Netherlands in service 1939 - 1945

[FreekS]

For gunner on seat see here

 

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/pictures/pictures_kxv_wwii.htm

 

I think the seat could swing closer in than where Piet has it now.

 

I have seen some pictures of a kind of cover structure covering the rear part of the gun when submerged. Not sure if it was actually used.

 

Freek

[Piet]

Hoi Jan, no sooner said then done, a picture of a gunner on the seat, thanks to Freek!!    

Well, if I decide to venture in making people figures then it'll be when the boat is completed, much like the final project.  

As far as removing seaweed  from the works - - I hope for their sake that they don't run into seaweed  

This particular boat had a elevator that brought the shells up from below, at least that's according to the drawings I have.  Actually, that is a question I was asked just today, about seaweed and seawater.  He asked if they somehow retracted the gun into the hull.  So I just gave the guy a swag at it    No seaweed and lots of grease or cosmoline and not retractable. 

 

Hello Freek, thanks for the pictures, great stuff.  I had only two of these but saved the rest to my collection, much appreciated.  I have no idea how this seat works and how much space the guy has to operate the hand wheels.  

My model of the gun is most likely not quite right but it'll suffice.  It's close enough for government work 

It doesn't seem very comfortable, just as the cockpit jump seats in our commercial aircraft.  I found the Boeing 777 the most comfortable and the B 747 one of the worst.  

 

Cheers,

[Piet]

This morning I managed to finish the deck gun before Gwen and I went to my birthday party thrown by our financial advisory company.   

 

I made the simulated elevation adjusting rack and cement that in place.  I'm happy with the way de gun came out and it looks quite menacing when viewed head on.

 

Below are the pics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

[mtaylor]

Wonderful... fantastic looking artillery, Piet.   I hope you had a great birthday party.

[realworkingsailor]

Gun looks great,

But why, every time I go back and look at the prototype photos, does my arm start to hurt when I take a close look at the breech....

 

Andy

[Remcohe]

It turned out really great Piet, it's a model on it's own and an eye-catcher.

 

Remco

[popeye the sailor]

now that's more like it.......it looks superb! hope you had a great day!

[Piet]

Hello everyone and my thanks to the many who visited and liked my deck gun progress.

 

I was kinda a little apprehensive tackling this gun but when I started it all fall into place.  I only had a few remakes, nothing serious though.

 

@ Mark:  Thank you Mark and yes, I had a pleasant although very quiet day.  Family lives too far apart and busy with work and school to get together.  Gwen and I had a glass of wine and toasted to each other's health and a few more years.  We'll drive up north and visit when summer recess is here.  Right now she's planning on driving up help move our grandson out of his dorm in college for the summer recess.  That's 900 miles one way !!  A real sailor's daughter she is, with a can do attitude but, then again, she's a bit younger then I am, only 73 

 

@ Andy:  Thanks for the compliment but you've got me wondering why your arm hurts when looking at the breach.  Did you have at one time a run-in with an 88 when loading ?????      

 

@ Remco: Thank you as well for your kind words - - - all I'm trying to do is follow your motto, treat each part as a separate model - - - or something like that.

 

Hey Popeye, well, you were wondering how the gun would look all dolled up in a coat of paint - - - now here it is, finally.

 

I took it easy today.  For some reason this last BCG treatment for the cancer bothered me more then usual.  Fever, headache and more of a discomfort when peeing    .  The bright side of all this is - - - it's the last treatment session - - - hurray      May 29 we'll go in for an biopsy to see if the treatment did its job.  

 

In the meantime I'm looking at what to do next.  I like to build the torpedo loading gantries but I need a gezillion small pulleys and I mean small.  There are two sizes, small and smaller      7 and 4 mm.  Fortunately all are single sheave but the associated hardware is equally small.  Now I have to look for brass or aluminum rod in the largest size.

If I can't find it in our local hardware store I'll have order it from my regular source in Canada.

I could make a start with the dingy though while waiting for the rods - - - or the propellers - - - hmmmm decisions, decisions.

 

Cheers,

[realworkingsailor]

Just looking at the depth of the breech, imagine loading a shell and some over zealous gunners mate slams the breech lock with your arm stuck up there...... Ow......

 

Andy

[amateur]

Hi Andy, I think the breech isn't as deep as you think..

I tried to find a pic, but can't find a nice one. A sfar as I can find  it has a full or semi automatich breechlock/loading device; consisting of a sliding breachlock and no 'doorlike' contruction.

Some pics are here

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1125169210/Bofors+88mm+guns

or

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1127665400/Wilton-Fijenoord-Bofors

and

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/message/1143277658/HIH+Siderius+8,8cm+L45+submarine+guns

 

Jan

 

btw Freeks pics show the gun from O24, one of the few remaining HIH Siderius guns

Edited April 18, 2014 by amateur

[popeye the sailor]

absolutely!! the gun looks great Piet! you really nailed the overall looks of the real thing! hope your feeling better, and I wish you well on your next visit

[Piet]

Hi Andy, I guess I didn't understand what you meant by your comment about hurting your arm.  I do have several photographs of the KM (Royal Navy) submarines used at that time and tried to make my model as close to them as I could.  So, to me then, my model comes close to the real thing and therefore I didn't understand.

 

I believe that with the pics Freek and I have already posted this should have been quite evident.  Now that Jan has added a few more I didn't have and his input about the breach, there should be no fear of of getting your hand or arm tangled up in the breach   

 

I am not an ordinance guy but an airplane guy, so my knowledge about guns etc, is close to nil.  Although I did place second in a sharp-shooting contest among all the armed forces in the Netherlands when I was a draftee aircraft mechanic in the KL (Royal Airforce)     I even beat the Marines!  Well, I had a good instructor, he was a sergeant in the Royal Marines and was part of a group that defended the bridges over the Maas river against the German paratroopers at the start of the war.

 

Hoi Jan, thanks for the links and the great pics of guns and your input.  Yes, I knew that the gun Freek send me the pics from are from the O24 and I do have a few of the pics from the links you added.  I believe that the O19 and subsequent boats had the same type gun.  Like I mentioned above I have no clue about guns and how this particular gun is loaded.  The pics show the breach in the closed position but how it is opened to shove the round into it and then closed to make it ready for firing I have no idea.  I assume that the discharge of the casing is gas operated.  

I hope that someone knowledgable on these 88's can shed some light on this, just for curiosity sake

 

Hello Popeye, thanks you for your compliments.  Yeah, I think too that I came close to make it look like the real gun.  As an afterthought, I could have added a few more small things to it and perhaps make the breach area a little more refined, which I can still do.

 

Cheers,  

[Piet]

Hello everyone, the Piet is back 

Yeah, I took a few days away from the dockyard for other pressing things and besides that I made a few working sketches for the torpedo loading gantries.  It seems that I need some additional material.  I thought I had everything but it turns out that I need one piece of 5/32`` ID brass tubing and of course the 8 mm brass rod for the pulleys.  

That large size tubing is for the lower part of the boom pole to be in scale for that part but it seems to make that upright too bulky.  I need to think about it some before I commit myself.

 

As yuns can see on the below pics there are quite a few parts to it and I have to make two of these suckers, one for the forward end and one for the aft end.  Then there is still the dingy loading boom to do.

 

After I made this sketch I already started to change a few things which I have annotated on the drawing.  It always seems to go this way, after looking at it you begin to see certain details that can be done simpler.

 

The detail sketches surrounding the center assembly sketch are not to scale.  The center assembly sketch is to scale.

 

I have not given every part a name or their measurements yet on this sketch.  As noted above, the sketches are not to scale so I plan to do that as I go along.  Here you can also see why I'm still a little apprehensive to make the upright post of the port assembly that heavy.  It seems a little too bulky, what are your thoughts?

 

This shows the detail of the boom attachment and pulley assembly.  All this must be able to rotate and the boom must be able to be lowered or raised.  It'll be a tricky thing to do.

 

This shows the detail on the top of the boom.  The top triangular part of the plate is to secure the boom to the deck fixture when not in use.  The other two are to attach the pulley brackets to.  The two pulley brackets are identical.

 

This is another intricate detail that'll give some work.  The part where the "come-along" and the stationary cable are attached to must also rotate with the swing of the boom.  The one change I'm making is the top cable attachment.  Instead of a clevis I'll be using a thimble like the center cable attachment.  And no, I'll not be making a miniature "come-along" to lower and raise the boom - - - what d'you think - I'm a magician?? 

 

Cheers, 

[popeye the sailor]

looks awesome Piet.....lots of cool detail to it!

[mtaylor]

Piet,

 

Looks like a great sub-project (pun intended).    Just make sure it's strong enough to support the torpedo.

 

As for you being a magician... nah...  you're our resident wizard. 

[Piet]

Thank you all for visiting and like what I'm doing, I truly appreciate it very much.

 

@ Popeye: yup, a lot of detail in these seemingly simple gizmos.  But as our good friend Remco states, treat each part as a model.  This'll keep me busy for a while.

 

@ Mark: Love the pun      Oh yeah, the boom will be stromg enough to hold the torps.  I'm using 3/16 stainless steel 7-19 wire rope, it should have a 30,000 lbs tensile strength    Actually I don't know yet what I'll be using to simulate steel cable.  

Wizard eh - - - you mean the one with a dunce cap???  That fits me to a tee   

 

All y'all have fun now - - - modeling 

 

Cheers,

[Piet]

I went to the local Ace hardware store to see if they have the brass tube I think I need for the gantry posts  and the brass rod for the pulleys.  Well yes, they did on both but the rod cost $25 for a 4 foot length and for a max length of 1 foot I need for the pulleys that was a little too steep a price to pay 

Sooooh - - - I'm back to square one on the pulleys.  It's either looking for plastic rod or boxwood.  I'll be shopping at Evergreen or some other places to see if they have short pieces of the size I need and for a reasonable price otherwise it's going to be boxwood.

 

I decided to try making the post where the boom is attached as the drawings and photos show.  After I completed these and stuck them to the deck of the boat they did look okay to me.  So, I'll keep them.

The posts on the other side are smaller in diameter and I also made these today.  

 

I was now in a quandary as to how the cross beam was attached, although I had some idea how I would do it if I were the engineer but thought it better to look for some close-up photos I have in my archives.  Didn't really find much in enough detail but think I figured it out and will proceed from there.  This'll be quite a challenge 

 

I did notice though when browsing through the many pics that the older boats did not use a "come-along" allowing the boom to be raised and lowered.  They had a fixed length of cable and just one pulley at the end of the boom to raise and lower the torpedo.  Other subs seem to have a smaller, portable lift.  I'll stick with the design I have from the original drawings as shown in yesterday's post, with a few minor changes.

 

Okay, I made the four gantry posts today and will try to make a few of the other items.  There's a whole bunch of models here     

 

Here are the pics.

 

This shows the aft gantry posts, just temporarily stuck into the deck.  Eventually they'll be epoxied in.  The port post will have a diagonal brace aft to the deck for extra support. This is just the beginning.  My best bet is to make the complete assembly off the model and cement it into place after it's finished.  

 

This shows the forward gentry posts.  This one will be slightly different because it'll have small extra pieces on top of the crossbeam for antenna wires, at least that's the plan for now.

 

Cheers,

 

[texxn5]

Hello just checking in....all is well. Hope all is well with you. Short on time, so I noticed you are thinking about your cranes...for a cable, Walmart sells different woven wire for fishing lures and leaders....might find what you need there. Check you later.

[Piet]

Hey John, good to see you in the shipyard and that yuns are doing fine.

 

Thanks for the hint on the wire rope at Wallmart.  I made a note of it and check it out.

 

Say hi to Diane!

 

Cheers,

[Piet]

Thank you all for visiting and your likes, it's much appreciated.

 

Well, today I found a "fly in the ointment."  In a PM from Renco he wondered of that 8 mm pulley for the torpedo tackles are not a little too large.  That made me think and drove me back to the drawings and actually remeasuring everything.  Eagle eye quick brain Remco saw immediately that 8 mm pulleys were way too large.  

 

Yes, I agree that a scale 8 mm pulley would indeed be much too large.  Rechecking the photos in my archive they do look quite large but not to the size of 4 dm or 16 inches!   I don't know where my brain was - - - please don't tell me - - -   

 

Soooooh - - - debating with myself I thought that for this application a pulley between 9 to about 11 inches or 5 to 6 scale mm would be okay.  

The smaller pulleys could be half or less that size but now I'm running into making them that tiny      The "come-along" I have has a pulley of 2 inches, which calcs out to 1 mm in scale.  Now that would be almost impossible to make so I have to fudge it.  I'm assuming that they used a similar device with most likely a larger pulley. 

 

What I mentioned to Remco is that I'll make the larger pulleys either 5 or 6 mm in diameter and 0.5 mm wide, give or take a fraction.  I don't think that a pulley between 9 and 11 inches is unreasonable.  

My come-along pulley looks kinda fat, but when I consider the 3/16 inch cable it kinda works out that way.

The smaller pulleys will then be about 3 mm but with enough width to still show the cable groove.

 

I checked my drawing in the center of the sketch page I posted and that turns out to be at 1:45, close but no cigar 

 

For your information I have taken a few shots of my "come-along" so people who may not know what I'm talking about can see one.  The one I have is rated at 2,000 pounds with a 3/16 inch steel cable.

 

 

Yup, that pulley is 2 inches or 50 mm in diameter and a little better then ¾ inch wide.

 

Cheers,  

[harvey1847]

Morning Piet!

 

Just checking in like John... I have spent lot of time on post #1056 trying to understand how the hek that crane works. Lot of mental effort to draw it I guess. I draw and draw sketches por the Triton and trying to explain myself how a piece must be done. Of course I deal only with wood structures but now you are dealing with a crane and knowing your work will be functional, or will not?

 

By the way, Are you a mechanical ingeneer or aeronautic one? Those sketches are amazing.

 

[Piet]

Hello Daniel, good to see you back in my shipyard.  Yes, I like to make sketches of things to visualize them.  However, I really don't do it all the time because I already have a good idea how certain items look and work.  This does not apply to sailing ships of long ago though    I need help with that from the experts here.

 

Among the many certificated technical trades, at last count about 13, I am also a certificated draftsman but never earned a living with it, just drawing for myself, like extensions to our house in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.  When I was Director of Engineering for an airline I designed a cargo interior for two of our aircraft and made all the design drawings.  I also had to redesign a major modification to one of the aircraft that was botched up by a real certificated engineer and had to submit my drawings to the Government inspector for approval. 

 

It also helps that as part owner of an aircraft repair business I had to work with many similar structural items as was used on my father's submarine.  Aircraft control systems use pulleys and similar associated hardware.  

 

I started out being an aircraft mechanic and worked on many different types, from small single seat airplanes to large commercial aircraft,  I also furthered my education here in the USA and am just 15 credit points away from  degree in aeronautical engineering.  I gave up attaining a degree when hired on by our Federal Government as an Airworthiness Inspector for large airlines.  I made the same amount of money but had a lot more fun.  I was on the road a lot flying all over the country and Europe instead of being locked up in an office.

 

As far as de loading gantries on my model being workable, yes, up to a point.  I will not make the final connection to a workable electrically powered winch that's below the deck.  Instead I'll leave the cables loose in the dingy compartment a can actually demonstrate loading the torpedoes and the dingy.

 

Cheers, 

[Piet]

Thank you all for visiting and for your like votes, please come again.

 

It's been a few days but last Friday I started with making some of the items for the torpedo loading gantry. But first I made one 6 mm and one 3 mm pulley out of a wooden dowel just to see how these sizes would look.  I think that they should be okay.  The wood I used was not very hard and the result is a little fuzzy but the aim was to check for size.

 

Then I made the two booms and primed them.  I also made two sets of connecting fixtures for the boom elevation come-along.  I think that making the small thimbles will be a real challenge.  I don't know just yet how I'm gong to do that.  They will be slightly smaller then what they show on the drawing above.  The cable is to loop around them and then either spliced or nico pressed together to form a loop.  I may have to cut a groove in a 0.5 mm brass rod 

 

Okay, here are a few pics of my efforts.

 

This hows the two pulleys made from a wooden dowel for size test.

 

Another view of the wooden pulleys

 

This shows one of the two booms with the attaching hardware.  The pulley attaching bracket will be hand filed down a little more now that I have better handle on it. 

 

This shows the boom with all the hardware soldered on.  Next step is dressing everything down some more and then primer paint.

 

This shows a boom all dolled up and primes.  I also placed the lower attaching piece in it's raw state below the boom end to show how it looks before dressing it up.  It'll be soldered into the next boom.  I forgot to make a picture of all the parts that make up the boom.

 

These are the parts to allow connecting the elevation rig to move the boom up and down.  One pair is ready for final shaping and then for the primer, the other set is yet to be completed.  I forgot to lay a ruler next to them but they are small, 4.5 mm.

 

Cheers,

[harvey1847]

hello Piet!

 

Thanks for the explanation about your job and Life. Really appreciate it and enjoy it reading.

 

By the way... your sketch it´s turnin a little bit messy with all that pencil notes...

 

Best wishes and happy modelling.

 

 

 

Daniel.

[Piet]

Hello Daniel,  glad you appreciate my rambling about my life and careers.  It's been a trip but enjoy my retirement, although a little late in life.

Come and visit again, okay?

 

Cheers,  

[Piet]

WOW, thank you all for visiting and liking my stories and build, it's really appreciated.

 

@ Daniel: re the pencil markings on the drawing - - - that's why they call it a working drawing    I always make notes and scribble changes on it.

 

I managed to do some more work on the gantries today.  I had been pondering how to make the boom attachment bracket, that's the piece where the boom and lower pulley attach to.  So, I made a core from boxwood and plated them with brass shim.  I used CA to cement the brass shim to the wood core.  

I drilled a small hole in the post and soldered a brass pin into it.  Then I also drilled the boom pivot pin hole and the hole for the attaching pin in the bracket.

The attaching bracket is then epoxied to the gantry post and spot soldered on the underside only.  It appears to be rather solid.

 

I was also wondering how to finish that triangular fitting for the boom elevation tackle attaching hardware.  I cut three small pieces of square brass stok and soldered them in between the two triangular pieces, like a sandwich.  I hope that the picture below explains it.

 

Well, it looks like things are coming together, slowly.  

Next are the boom pivot attach brackets and the pulley sheaf brackets.  Hmmm, how to make them rotate as if one unit - - - I'm thinking, Im thinking - - - don't disturb me now     

 

Talking about pulleys, Remco is mailing a few pieces of 6 and 3 mm brass rod      [[a birthday present, he says]]  But I have still quite few parts to make before they arrive.  It's all working easier then I expected and I'm having a ball     

 

Okay, here are a few pics to show the progress.

 

This shows one of the boom attach brackets assembled but not dressed yet and the raw pieces for the second bracket.  

 

This shows one of the brackets installed and how these brackets are fastened to the post.  Obviously that long pin is cut off just long enough to reach the pivot hole. As I write this both posts have now these brackets cemented and soldered to them.  No - - - no time yet for primer paint.   There are two more brackets to be soldered to the top of the post for the elevation gizmos   and the cross beam to the other post.

 

This shows the triangular attaching bracket for the boom elevation equipment.  Here you can see the three small pieces of brass that I soldered to the inside to make this thing so that I can pin the pulley hardware to it and the two thimbles for the cables.  This was a tricky thing to do but worked easier then thought.

 

Cheers,

 

[Piet]

Thanks again all y'all for your likes 

 

After my colonoscopy procedure this morning, which showed potential problems, I ventured back into the shipyard, aka the garage to do some more work on the gantry.

 

Instead of working on the boom and pulley attaching hardware I started making the boom elevation attaching and swivel hardware on top of the gantry post.  

I only got to completing all the parts but didn't have the time to attach them to the post.  Hopefully we can do that tomorrow.

 

Here are a few pics of the parts.

 

This shows the parts that make up the swivel attachment for the boom elevation equipment.  I laid them out to the right of the drawing to show where they are suppose to be.   It must of necessity be able to rotate following the swing of the boom and at the same time allowing cable hooks to move up and down when the boom is raised and lowered.  

Needles to say all the parts are still in their rough state.  Only after they are soldered to the top of the post will I clean it up and filed to size.

I made an attaching pin from 0.8 mm brass rod to attach the swivel unit to the two brackets.  I made the head from a small piece of copper tubing and soldered that to the pin.  I notice now though that I have to file the top of the head down some more.  Once the assembly is all installed this pin will have a safety pin run through a small hole on the bottom.  Hmmmm, yeah right, keep dreaming babes    Actually, the drill bit that could do that is broken - - - so it'll have to be done after I order a couple new bits.

The holes you see are 0.8 mm.

I plan to cut grooves into the tube of the post to allow for a better solder connection, it also facilitates holding these small parts for soldering.

 

 

This shows my soldering jig for the swivel unit with the other parts of the whole assembly.

I filed a groove into a piece of wood for the small piece of tubing to lay in and then placed a 0.3 mm thick brass plate next to it.  In order to solder this I used a wooden clothe pin as a clamp to hold it all in one place, this worked like a charm.  The two brackets will also be filed down some more to reduce them in size but that'll happen after they are soldered to the posts so I can clean them up together with finalizing the shapes and sizes.

 

Cheers,  

[Kevin]

Sorry Piet this has been a bit of a catch up morning - I was 20+ pages behind, for which I apologise

I have missed so much, a fantastic scratch build, your illness and a lot of informative information being handed out from your self and everyone else

lol - been a long time since I handed out that many likes

I am still around, my Bismarck built is still on the desk, but a am building a completely non ship kit at present,

 

stay well, and I promise to keep more up to date with your build and everyone elses

[Piet]

Hey Kevin, great to see you back again in the O19 shipyard!    

No apology necessary my dear sub friend and your complements.  I have seen your many like hits, appreciate it much      Well, yes, I like to add as much extra info to the build as I can and thanks to all who add to it.  

I know you are busy with the Bismarck and the Victory, both are really looking super great, well done.  I am following both builds whenever I see an update and let you know I visited with a like or a comment.  

 

Keep up the good work and yes, please keep dropping in, you are always welcome.

 

Cheers,

[Piet]

Hello everyone and thanks for visiting and your like votes, it's much appreciated. It looks like everybody got caught up    

 

Continued with the gantry today and making progress.  Looks like I'm concentrating on the aft gantry, I just like to see how it looks on the boat all finished.  The torpedo will have to wait till the forward one is finished.

All these little parts are rather time consuming and challenging.  So far, things seem to be working out okay and I'm happy with the results.  I hope that the forward one goes as easy.

 

Here are a few pics to show the progress I made today, even having to take a few hours away from the shipyard to pick up my wife after se dropping off her car at the dealer in Ormond for its six month check.  She is a stickler when it comes to "her" car's upkeep, which is a good thing    And - - - she's driving back up to Pittsburgh, PA next month to help the grandson move his stuff out of the dorm for summer recess. 

 

This shows how I rigged a "Rube Goldberg" clamping arrangement to solder one of the swivel brackets for the come-along to the gantry post.  A 0.8 mm brass rod is used to keep it in line with the boom attaching bracket.

 

This pic shows both brackets soldered to the post.  I placed the swivel unit next to it to show where it'll be pinned to. 

 

This shows the gantry post with the come-along swivel unit installed.  The top cable attaching bracket is next.  It was a little tricky having to solder it so close to the top bracket but it worked out okay, see next pic 

 

While I was soldering the top bracket I thought, why not also solder the crossbeam to the post.  Then I figured, why not complete the gantry.   So, I soldered everything together on the boat.  Checking, double checking for square to the deck and holding it steady with a wooden clothe pin.  Wonders above wonders it actually came out rather well.  I'm happy    

 

Here is one shot with the gantry stuck to the deck.  The boom is laying on the deck ready to be attached as soon as I have it's bracket made and installed.

 

This is another shot of the gentry and we can see all the hardware on the post.

 

This is a shot toward to front.  Looks square to me.  The foreshortening of the lens makes the gentry look large but when seeing it on de boat it looks okay scale wise.

 

Cheers,