Great Republic 1853 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - four masted extreme clipper

[rwiederrich]

Actual coppered hulls tend to show the major elements(Individual copper plates), then the exaggerated nail holes..even though they can be seen..they are insignificant at smaller scales...IMV..but for your review..here are some examples.  ie..Cutty Sark, Constitution. 

[rwiederrich]

One thing I have noticed Is that along with the dedicated copper nails that each plate must retain..there is the fact that there are numerous surface defects that add to the surface detail of a copper plate. 

It dawned on me that a simple press against the copper tape with a heavy sand paper would indeed render the detail present on old copper plate.  I tested it here at work(In the most rudimentary way) and found it satisfying.

I will pre press the copper tape with heavy grit sand paper then run the tape through my rolling press and see what I get.....

 

I present a very good example of the results of actual ware and real world action on copper plates...the USS constitution. I think I can replicate this with my suggested (NEW) idea.

 

I'll try it as soon as I get home.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

I made a rolling punch to make the nail imprints...looks cool.

[rwiederrich]

After creating my double Ponce wheel here are the results.  I didn't rub the tape down hard so the details can be seen.

 

I simply rolled each tape section with the Ponce wheel (which imprinted two sets of nail holes) then ran the tape through my plate replicator.

 

Further refining will occur but I'm getting there I think.

 

I might even try running the wheel on the  tape after it's installed...only problem is not punching in the seam between plates.

 

Rob
 

[Chasseur]

Please post a picture I am curious to see what you made ... Jeff

[rwiederrich]

I'll refine it a bit and make sure the nail points are as evenly spaced on each plate as possible. I'll probably make a jig to mainting the ponce wheel center the tape.

 

Rob

Edited July 10, 2016 by rwiederrich

[Chasseur]

Okay just got it looks good!

[rwiederrich]

Here is pic of a strip of tape that has been pressed with both the plate and a random nail imprint...Not sure what I think.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

I'm almost leaning on my original montra of *Keep it simple stupid*.

The clean lines of the crisp plate lines not muttled up with all the nail impressions might be the clean and safe way to go...any thoughts?

 

Rob

[mtaylor]

Rob,

 

I'll probably be in the minority...no nails, no imprints.  They look over scale.  I'm the same way with treenails at 1:64 scale... I don't like them.  Bigger scales.. they work.

[Mirabell61]

Hi Rob,

 

had a look at your trials with the coppering......

 

if you wish, here is a tip....

 

my first Trials have been for the bin, but I would`t like to give up so easily.
Some time ago member  Dirk posted a very helpfull link out of that "mini sail Switzerland" assotiation relating to coppering. Together with B.E.`s Prior Input I started a new Trial with real adhesive copper tape. (Tiffany tape) It would in scale size 1:64 be necessary to place 88 to 125 nails per plate of size 6 x 19 mm.

After some Trials I managed to place 88 nails, flattening the surface afterwards, and having the overlapping plates borderline-nails placed at half distances compared with the the main field. Unfortunetely the staggering of the nail lines in the centerfield is beyond my possibilities in this scale. The reproduceabilty is given due to the embossing Tools I made.

 

The sample here shows the "Tiffany Tape" coppering of the HMS Pegasus with 88 nails per plate, nail surfaces flattend down after poncing. The poncing is done with two different wheels. The 3-disc wheel is used for the larger sized inner field, oin order to obtain a better regular structure. Of course I could have bought the plates, but I wanted to see if I could do it selfmade and in acceptable way.

 

Nils

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Mirabell61

[Pete Jaquith]

Rob,

 

Coppering of Brigantine "Newsboy" in 3/16 scale using individual plates without imbosing.

 

Regards,

Pete

[Daniel Caramagno]

I've built in 1/8" scale and do not add copper nail detailing. Not only is it over scale, but there were specific nailing patterns used to mount the plates, and the patterns above would not simulate that. Common practice was best described as a lattice pattern as opposed to the rows above.

 

Just my two cents.

[druxey]

At 1:96 scale less is more, I think.

[dvm27]

A photo from Gatean's log of the USNA Minerve shows the optimal coppering effect. Very small, evenly spaced nails. Might be very difficult to convincingly execute at a smaller scale. I agree with Druxey that less is more in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kees de mol]

Nice copper plating

[Chasseur]

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. When I built the USS Constitution 20 years ago I just used the plates they supplied with the kit. They were individual pieces of wood painted green. After I installed them all I spray painted the plates a canned copper color. Once it dried a bit of the green leached through and it looked pretty realistic. I never bothered with the nail effect however I never knew you could buy copper tape until Rob posted his attempts.

 

Here is my 2 cents worth. Build your model the way you want it. Ignore some of the critics unless you plan on entering it into a competition otherwise do what you like.

 

Rob I am inpressed with your style of building. You use what you have and model to the best of your ability. Nobody can fault you for that and I like what I see so far. Looking forward to more posts ... Jeff

[rwiederrich]

Thanks everyone...for your fine advice and photographic representations.  I think there are two directions for me..One do nothing and simply add the tape as I described earlier using my roller technique.

Second, AFTER FURTHER EXPERIMENTATION..I devised a means to imprint subtle nail prints and to emboss the individual plates onto the tape.  I simply added a strip of sheetrock sanding cloth between the wire mesh, just on the outside surface so that when the entire apparatus is rolled I emboss both the nail imprints and the plate segment lines in one quick turn of the crank.

 

Subtle, yet not imposing or over exaggerated.

 

I think this might be the path I go down...what do you think?  I think it looks convincing.

 

Rob

Edited July 11, 2016 by rwiederrich

[druxey]

Whatever you do has to primarily please you, Rob. Everyone responding here will have their own opinion on the subject. The ball is in your court! (Apologies, Wimbledon.)

[EdT]

I agree with Druxey that at smaller scales, less is more.  In my mind the question is one of proportionality.  If something is out of proportion when modeled, it may be best to simplify, as Pete has done on his newsboy model, or to deemphasize the feature as Nils has done by flattening.  I wrestled with the plate problem on my 1:96 Victory and on the 1:72 Young America models.  On both I used an embossing jig with drilled nail spacing and pattern that approximated the originals.  This required some precision drilling and refinement of the embossing pins that were used in it.  I also used flattening.  Because these sheets were thin and nailed, the plate indentations should be inward, not projections.  Here are some pictures showing the method and results.  This has been described on this site and of course in the YA book, and may be worth a look.

 

Rob, are you also certain that GR was sheathed in copper and not yellow metal (zinc+copper=brass)?

 

Ed

 

.

[rwiederrich]

Yes Ed, I recall your examples and the topic you discussed on your YA build.  In my scale 1/128 the plates are roughly 5mm X 11mm.  Your jig is fantastic..if I was cutting individual plates....I'm using tape and the advantage from an expeditious point of view is to emboss the nail and segmentation imprints at the same time.  My struggle has been the control of the extent of exaggeration.

 

Here is a picture of the means by way I emboss the copper tape.  as previously explained... I have now added a piece of drywall sand screen between the exterior wire bands of the mesh.  when pressed with the mesh and the copper tape I am left with a symmetrical impression....replicating the many nail impressions present on each plate.

 

Yes..they are not perfect...neither is the real examples I have posted of the Constitution copper.

These examples not not pressed down or even taped down to the wood..but namely laid against each other to show the symmetry of the impressions.

I think these will do at the scale I'm working in..plus all I want is an impression of the copper nail imprints...not the actual number and exact placement replication.

 

I am so thankful for everyone's fine examples and advice....they have been very inspiring and aided me in my own fabrication and application.

 

But when the rubber hits the road....I'm really after a clean very expeditious method of laying 1600 plates.  In my case tape that represents individual plates.

 

Fast and furious...git -er done.....but don't look like you just through it all together...

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Once the entire hull is coppered...I will be applying a dull coat sealer to secure everything.

 

Ed:  The Great Republic was plated with Yellow metal...

Thus far I have not been able to track down brass tape to be used in my jig....If I can fine some I will surely use it instead of the copper tape.

 

Thanks for paying close attention and noting the detail.  I was fully aware...I just didn't point it out. I was focusing on the process of creation.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Worked on sanding and filling the hull today.  Applied filler...sand and contour...getting there.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Did a bit of sanding and filling today on the hull......its smoothing up.  I hope to finish this step and get a another coat of primer on it.

 

Planksheers and rail trim will be added next to the hull and to frame out the turned rail base prior to adding the deck.

 

Rob

[popeye the sailor]

the hull is looking great Rob.   I haven't done any coppering.......but it is true about ratio to scale and detail.    at smaller scales,  the brads used to make the rivet detail,  would need to be the diameter of a common pin.........or you'd have a hull full 'o craters.   with 1:96 plastic hulls,  the texture of the plates can be felt and seen as very tiny dimples.  I guess the best looking is some sort of pattern.......and not too busy.   it don't look right giving the appearance like it got peppered with bird shot.    when you've done a large area of the hull....it will be the best barometer      some very interesting views here  

[rwiederrich]

Thanks Popeye.  Yes..the nail detail needs to be almost insignificant at 1/128.  Just the slight impression of the detail.  The plate segments are the most important IMV.  My build schedule will probably allow the plates to be fixed on the hull...AFTER the hull detail is finished...the planksheer added and then the wood deck added.  After that, I'll paint the hull black by masking off the water line.

 

Just a few more things to do.....

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[popeye the sailor]

it's some good food for thought........I have the Sergal Thermopylae @1:124 scale.   I'm holding off on it for the time being,  gathering small things for it as I go along.   so far,  I've found a photo etch set for some of the deck detail.......hopefully,  I will find more stuff for it.   they show the bottom as painted copper.       granted I have enough copper paint to choke a horse.......but it would be nice to show some copper detail,  and plating it might be the way I'll go.   I enjoy the ideas..........

[rwiederrich]

Yeah Popeye...the trick is finding the wash tub ringer....and a good one that has good rollers.

Everything else for making copper plates as I demonstrated is pretty strait forward.

 

I finished off the hull today and leveled it and marked off the water line..or copper line.  It came out fantastically even and level.....

 

Now I am laying the deck. and when that is finished I will add in the planksheer and edging and base  for the turned rail posts.

 

My hope is to have the deck finished by the weekend....or sooner.  Sorry no pics..right now..I'm at work

 

Rob

[popeye the sailor]

sounds like your moving right along.    I wonder if copper or gold leaf paper will work?   I can get it at my local craft store?   I've seen folks use it on plastic models.   {I call it paper because that's how thin it is}.

[rwiederrich]

Yes..some craft stores have a brass foil tape....I can't find it in any small widths though.  1/4" width is all I found.

 

Rob