Revenge 1577 by xodar461 - FINISHED - Amati - Scale 1:64

[xodar461]

Hi Kirill

 

Thanks for your input on the bowsprit.  BTW, your galleon is amazing.  The length of the bowsprit in kit is 363 mm.  An often used reference for me is Historic Ship Models by Wofram zu Mondfeld.  According to his tables of mast dimensions, an English galleon of 1570 would have a bowsprit length of

2.235 x the ship's beam.  Using my model as a reference, I measured a the beam to be ~160 mm which would translate to a bowsprit length of 357 mm.  The diameter of the bowsprit at the deck would be 0.028 x L of bowsprit, or ~10 mm, which is what the kit calls for.  I did not do this for all of the masts and yards as this kit was designed for Amati by Chris Watton, a master model designer (see his website at Vanguard Models).  His models are first rate and I trust that he did his research when designing the kit.  It is good to know that his measurements are accurate with the bowsprit as I am sure they are with the remaining masts and yards.

 

 

 

Jeff

[kirill4]

Good day Jeff,

Thanks for information abt this model , I didn't know about designer of this kit - It looks like this Revenge model designed by Chris Watton almost identical to R.Hoeckel's  Revenge reconstruction/ model, as seems to me they are like twin brothers! 😆

 exept Chris Watton didn't fitt his model with topgallants which is quite correct for english galleon of that period  and in case of northen area of operation...

returning to bowsprit length , I still don't understand, if all calculations correct, how  than spritsail will work when bowsprit such short and there is no room for the sail....just for fun I've checked some contemporary pictures with galleons... and it looks like bowsprit in this kit  somehow lost 2-3 cm of its nessesary length...

I dodn't insist on my sugestions, just strange for me  ... at least , if You are not going to fitt your model with sails , such short bowsprit and as consequence  wrong location of spritsail yard will be not important...

Edited January 5, 2021 by kirill4

[xodar461]

Hi Kirill

 

Your second post really got me thinking so i decided to check things out.  First I marked where the bowsprit met the deck and then measured that compared to the height of the foremast from deck to cap as you suggested.  I found that the bowsprit was just a few MM short from the top of the cap so I think I have the correct length.  So then I placed the bowsprit in it's deck opening and hung the spritsail yard and this is what I came up with...

 

 

This seems to be close to the correct position as seen in your reference photos.  I think the problem lies with the prototype on the box as I agree that the spritsail yard seems to be in the wrong place (as it is on my kit box top).  Let me know what you think and thanks for your input

 

Jeff

[kirill4]

Good day Jeff,

Oh yes! 

On your last posted picture bowsprit length looks quite proportional !

And spritsail yard position on this picture seems correct!

Now I understood that the problem lies with the prototype on the box, but they did nessasary correction in the actual kit!

Very good!!!

I'm Sorry for that too intensive inputs regarding bowsprit length from my side :)))

just was afraid to see model spoiled by unproportional rigs :)))

Do You plan to fitt sails on your model?

All the best!!!

[xodar461]

Hi Kirill

 

I appreciate your help and loved the historical paintings you provided.  I do plan to put sails on.  I plan on having the ship displayed at anchor with the sails partially drawn up, maybe the mizzen or bonaventure sails furled.  I plan on using silkspan as the sail cloth provided in the kit is out of scale (much too thick).  I have a sheet of plexiglass with the waterline cut out that the ship will sit in that will eventually be finished to simulate water (I hope).  I have a phot of this that I will soon post.   Never have done sails so that will be an adventure.  The kit provides pretty good sail plans and I have several references to help with the rigging if the kit plans are lacking.

 

Jeff

[kirill4]

Good day Jeff,

It will be interesting , upcoming sails making adventure !!!

I've made main from percale cotton...

I think kit's rigging plan is good , must be good! :)))

and for more information ,if ness-ry ,we always have these very detailed historical paintings and R.C.Anderson book which gives us accurate description of each rope of standing and running rigging ...

there is  very interesting ,high level model of flemish galleon made by Igor Capinos, exelent source of various details could be seen !

http://sailmodel.ho.ua/galleon/index.htm

 

[kirill4]

 guys,

just tried to make opposite translation from english to russian my posts...it looks like abracadabra of10-15%my written text

I'm very sorry for inconvinience when you are reading my "english" posts 🤪

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by kirill4

[xodar461]

Greetings

 

Kirill, your English is just fine in your posts and I have enjoyed reading them!

Lower shrouds of the fore mast are now complete as are the futtocks.  First 2 pics show how I keep the ratlines even.

 

 

 

Next 2  show the final result.  You may notice that the tackles have been undone on the photos above.  They would have gotten in the way when the ratlines are placed so they were temporarily disconnected from the channel.  This can be seen with the main tackles in the next 2 photos.  The fore tackles were replaced upon completion of the ratlines.

 

 

 

The ratlines have also been painted black.  For the purist they were usually tan or light brown but I've always liked the look of black.  The lighter color seems to be distracting.  The next 2 pics show the foremast catharpins.  These were a bit of a challenge to do as a small rope goes through each dead eye opening and then is tied to the shrouds.  The deadeyes are 3mm and the blocks are 2 mm.  The lanyard (0.1mm rope) is supposed to be tied to the space between the block and deadeye but I tied it to a shroud above the futtock stave (pic 3 below).

 

 

 

Work in progress on the futtock shrouds below

 

 

As I've said in an earlier post, I would like to ultimately display the ship at anchor in the simulated ocean.  Here is what I have so far - 5 mm plexiglass with the waterline cutout.  Eventually it will be painted and some water details added (first to be done on a test piece or 2).  This is still quite some time in the future.

 

 

 

until next time,

 

Jeff

[Baker]

looks very good Jeff.

Congrats on your work

[kirill4]

Perfect!!!

Looks Very Good!!!

I read somewhere that talreps/ or deadeyes lanyards of standing rigging tarred all the way as well... means not only ratlines could be dark colors...

I didnt darkening lanyards on my model...may be need to do it

[xodar461]

Greetings!

 

Fore top mast shrouds now complete

 

 

Onto the main mast.  photo below shows the developing birds nest of lines while i do the shrouds and lanyards.  The first 4 are in place and the aft 4 have been secured at the mast head and marked (see blue tape) so as not to mix them up when it comes time to do the lanyards.  My process is to first serve the appropriate length that goes around the masthead, then seize it close to the masthead and the bring them through the top, alternating side to side beginning on the starboard.   The shrouds are left long and are used to mark where the chainplate is nailed to the wale.  The lower deadeye is then placed in the channel and the chainplate fixed to the deadeye and nailed to the wale (some trial and error required to get the correct length).  An estimate is made for the correct shroud length and the eye seizing is placed and the shroud is tightened to the deadeye.  With only the eye seizing in place, this can be adjusted later if needed.  The lanyard is then placed and tightened and measurements taken to insure correct spacing.  Only when all the deadeyes are in place and correctly space is the shroud seized and lanyard completed.  also note the main tackles have been taken off the hook on the channel as they will be in the way for work on the shrouds and foot ropes.

 

 

 

Jeff

 

 

[xodar461]

 Greetings!

 

work in progress on the main shrouds.

 

futtock shrouds also mostly done on one side.  I left the rope and seizing natural color so as to better see how the shrouds run and how they are seized to the main shrouds

 

Jeff

[xodar461]

Greetings...

 

Work on the Revenge has been a bit sporadic over the past few months.  Now that the shrouds and ratlines are complete, progress should be a a slightly faster pace.  Here is a photo of the ship at this stage...

 

Next up are the stays.  Photo below is the main stay (2 mm) with mouse (the part that goes around the mast is served) and it's collar which is served in it's entirety.  Note the eye splice in each.  The bowsprit gammoning has also been placed.  I have to be very careful when turning the ship so as not to snap anything off!

 

I'll post a few more pics after the stays are complete.

 

jeff

Edited September 4, 2021 by xodar461

[James H]

Bet you love ratlines!

 

Weird there's a cannon sticking through the shrouds. I'd never noticed that before.

[Cirdan]

5 hours ago, xodar461 said:

I'll post a few more pics after the stays are complete.

 

Great! 😃

[xodar461]

James,

 

There is a cannon poking through both the fore and main shrouds.  I had to be careful when doing the ratlines to be sure the line of fire was clear.  Seems like a recipe for disaster should should a shot take out one of the lines but who am I to question Chris's design!

 

jeff

[xodar461]

Greetings

 

Time for another update.  The stays are complete as well as the main stay tackle.

 

Now on to the yards.  They were all previously made with their attached block some time ago.  As mentioned previously I am going to attempt to hand sails on all of them, partially drawn up but not furled (as if at anchor).  Below is my first attempt.  This required:  making the sail with the bolt ropes and cringles; fixing the sail to the yard;  attaching the yard to the mast with the halyard;  rigging the clew and buntlines and lastly the martnets.  here are a few pics of the final? result.

 

I may need to work on the martnets to get them to hang a bit more naturally.  Yard lifts, braces, sheet and tack line still need to be done. 

Comments / advice on the sail would be much appreciated.  I plan on going into a bit more detail on the sail construction with the next one

 

Jeff

[Baker]

Great work 👍

[kirill4]

Good day Jeff,

Great job! Rigging Looks very nice and accurate!

*The only remarks I have, blocks on the F. mast look all of the same size? It is doubtfull... at least they looks same sizes on the posted photo ,

For example, top sail sheets quite a thick rope, almost same as shrouds and their blocks,those which are close to the ends and  middle of F .S. yard if I 'm not wrong... should be visually at least in 2 times bigger,than You shown them now...

it is personal visual impression, but actual sizes of the ropes and corresponding blocks need to be calculated in advance, if not all calculated but than some of remarcable blocks  should looks different, depends on rope size...

* shrouds deadeyes lanyards need to be " tarred", do not left them light color

* FS yard, if there is shown process of sail furling need to be shown lowered more down, approx 1,5-2 cm...

In more lowered than now position You could nicely display how martnets are working...as option,ends of the sail could be shown lifted up by martnets more close to the yard ends, and central part of the sail could be left with some bely...

There is a picture of nice and historic accurate made galleon museum model of Elizabeth Jonas, could be used as reference of many interesting details... 

I think in general, both authors, of this model and your kit used same basic source of information for their reconstructions...:)))

Edited November 27, 2021 by kirill4

[xodar461]

Greetings Kirill

 

Great points, as always.  Every time I look at your galleon I am amazed with your work.  On more than one occasion I have used it as reference for the Revenge.  Re: the blocks at the end of the fore yard, they are indeed the same size as that was what the plans called for.  After some thought, I decided to change them on both the fore and main yards to a 6mm block for the topsail sheet at a 4 mm one for the lift.  I have some 7 mm blocks but I think visually they look too big.  As far as darkening the lanyards the time for that has passed - I don't want to try to darken them up in place and it would be way to much work to redo them.  As they are a medium shade of brown I do not think they detract from the overall look.  I may use black for my next model (whatever that may be) but I do like the contrast even if it may not be historically correct.  And finally, I think I will do as you suggest with the sails similar to the photo above.  I will continue to post as things progress.

 

Thanks as always

 

Jeff

[kirill4]

Good day Jeff,

All clear,I will be waiting for new photoes of building process...

[xodar461]

Greetings!

 

For anyone interested,  here is a brief description of how I made the sails.  Comments and posts regarding sails and their construction on MSW were quite helpful as I have never done this before.  Starting with a sheet of silkspan, one side was painted with a foam roller and hung to dry (I used some acrylic paint, cream color, that had been used for walls in the house).

 

The kit provides templates for all the sail.  These were cut out and glued to cardboard to provide some thickness.  The sail outline was then traced onto the silkspan.  Seams were marked and drawn onto the sail with the result below.

 

The sail was then cut out with ~5mm overlap that would be folded over to secure the top and bolt ropes.  I know this is not how the ropes were attached however at 1:64 scale there is no practical way to sew the rope to the silkspan  so I figured this compromise would work.  Photo below shows the process with the head rope glued and work on the bolt rope.  The flap has been folded over and glued on the left.  

 

 

The bolt rope was one continuous rope from the left upper corner to the right.  The clews were easy to make by just leaving a little extra and seizing the rope.  The cringles were made by passing a needle with a small thread through the bolt rope at the appropriate intervals (as marked on the sail plan).  They are pretty secure once the flap in folded over.  This process can be seen below.

 

After the ropes are placed I lightly paint the sail to lessen the prominence of the seam lines (this also makes the foled over flap of silkspan less visible).  On my previous post, I think the lines are too visible on the fore course so this extra layer of paint make them a bit fainter.  I ended up redoing the this sail for this reason and also because I placed the robands at the seams and after further review, they should be midway between the seams.  Photo below shows a close up of a lateen sail and then all the sails.

 

 

 

Once the sails were complete I decided to revise the head cringle (or earring) as I did not like the loop as seen in the main topsail (second from bottom).  It should look more like the main sail (bottom).

I've already got the fore course, topsail and spritsail rigged so more photos to follow

 

Jeff

 

 

[Dave_E]

Adding sails to a model ship (in my opinion) is an art in itself. I haven’t heard the term yet “model ship sail maker”, but I think it’s a warranted title. Superb work!

[xodar461]

Greetings!

 

Construction continues...below - martnets and buntline on the forward side of the fore course.  The Halyard was a bit of work to place as the lanyard and block were placed a long time ago as the knighthead is below deck and unavailable to rig.  The first loop around the yard was easy enough...the second one had to be secured with the mast in place and under the correct amount of tension.  Not visible is the 1mm brass rod the was placed to hold the yard onto the mast.  This also keeps other lines from pulling the yard up.  At full scale the yard would have enough weight that this would not happen but at this scale, there is not enough weight to pull the halyard down naturally.

 

On the aft side we have the martnets and the clew lines.

 

 

Fore course sheets and tacks now attached to the fore course clew.  The sheet lines had to be taken down a bit in order to have access to the fore deck for placement of later lines.

 

These ropes were used to pull up the sail to its current position.  The sail is lightly sprayed with water making is quite pliable and easy to draw up.  It will then dry and keep its shape.  It was at this point that I realized I forgot to place the parrel trucks and beads (see photo 2 above).  The work was a bit tight however I was able to get them on as can be sen below.  The fore yard lifts are also on at this point.

 

 

Here's a view from the front.  Only line left is the bowline which will go on after the topsail and sprit sail are on.

 

 

Next up, the for topsail.  Placing the halyard and lanyards for this is quite the process.  Everything has to be checked and rechecked to get the correct tension without pulling the main stay way out of alignment.  here's a photo on the work in progress...

 

 

And finally the topsail ready to rig.

 

 

One of the issues with sail placement is finding a place to belay all of these lines.  Some of the belay points on the plans did not seem to work and in some cases up to 3 lines were to be belayed at the same pin.  I was able to make it work with a combination of the belaying pins and the rails and modification of the run of some of the lines (belaying pins may be an anachronism for this period but so be it - leaving them off and tying all of these ropes to the rails is not something I wanted to do).   Most of the work on the topsail and sprit sail is complete and I will update with more photos soon

 

Jeff

[xodar461]

Greetings

 

Work continue on the sails.  The sprit sail, fore course and topsail lines have been placed except for the bowlines in the following photos.  The spritsail is shown partly furled.

 

 

 

Here's a photo of some of the lines belayed.

 

 

In order to remember the size of each line and where it was rigged (in order to make the appropriate coils), I made this cheat sheet to represent each belay point on the fore deck.  The name of the line and rope size is listed for each belay point.

 

After the main course was set, I decided to finish the lines to the sprit sail and the fore sails.  This included the sprit sail sheet and the fore sail sheet and tack line. 

 

Some completed rope coils...

 

 

forward view of work so far...

 

 

And finally one of the crew working the sprit sail halyard.

 

 

 

Jeff

[Cirdan]

Very beautiful model. I like the style very much. 

[westwood]

That looks great Jeff.
I admire your patience and skill.

[MarcNS]

Hi Jeff

I am new to MSW but have been following your build for a while as a visitor.  I am also building this kit at present and while, no where near as ambitious as you, I have appreciated many of the comments and points you have made as its has helped me on numerous occassions.

Currently,  I am constructing the masts and bowsprit and I do have a question.  When I dry fit the bowsprit, it is of course off centre - there seems to be a great deal of play in the fitting so I assume it needs to cross the bow at a particular angle.  There do not appear to be any diagrams or pictures from above to guide this. Can I ask how you chose to do it?  

Your ship is an absolute masterpiece.

regards,

Marc

[allanyed]

Jeff,

 

She is a very well constructed model, congratulations.   I do notice there are belaying pins which is curious as they were not used on British ships before 1770 and Revenge ran aground in 1591.  Am I correct in assuming this is a kit design error?

 

Thanks

 

Allan

[xodar461]

Thanks for the comments

 

Marc:  In regards to your question, I assume you mean the angle of the bowsprit from horizontal.  not sure I can give you the angle but I will let you know the distance the bowsprit is above the stem in a post later today.  That may help with the correct angle.

 

Allenyed:  I am aware that belaying pins on a ship of this period are likely anachronistic, however I decided to keep them anyway.  There are just not enough places to belay all of the lines on the rails and cleats without it looking a mess in my opinion.  (The foward rail on the fore deck would have to have 14-15 lines tied to it for example).  Even so, the plans call for several lines to be belayed on one pin so these lines were tied to the rail.  As the kit was designed by Chris Watton for Amati, it would be interesting to hear his opinion on this subject but I have not inquired.   ( I did find one reference of belaying pins found in the wreck of the Mary Rose, so...)

 

Jeff

Edited March 1, 2022 by xodar461
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