Charles Martel by Haze Gray - 1/72 scale - RADIO - 3D printed - French Battleship

[Haze Gray]

Hello All, 

 

As I'm in the downward section of the designing and printing the USS Maine, I couldn't help but start on the French Battleship Charles Martel. I think it's a beautiful boat and comes from an interesting time.   I'm fascinated by the tumble home designs and the Charles Martel has that in spades!

 

You can read more about the Charles Martel on Wikipedia here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_Charles_Martel

 

Will write more later but for now, here's a shot of the hull in work. there's not a lot of definition in the pronounced armor belt ...yet, but there will be!

 

 

 

[yvesvidal]

You are going to start your own plastic printed company, if it goes on..... Congratulations.

 

Yves

[popeye the sailor]

gee......I can just turn my chair     where do you get the raw plastic for your machine?

[Haze Gray]

2 hours ago, yvesvidal said:

You are going to start your own plastic printed company, if it goes on..... Congratulations.

 

Yves

Well, now that the kids are old enough to mind themselves to and from the bus stop I did mention to my wife how easy it would be to keep a few machines printing continuously during the day - maybe that could be a home business for her.  Well, she immediately fired up the computer and started typing her resume! I took that as a signal she was not on board with the idea.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Haze Gray]

I worked a little bit on the transom after work yesturday which reminded me that I should post a little bit about both the Charles Martel and using Fusion 360 to design and also 3d Printing boats. 

 

Fusion 360:
First off, once you have the design reference you need and enough photographs (which can take a long time to find as I'm sure many of you know already) once you start sketching the boat in Fusion 360 the hardest parts to get right are the bow and the transom.  The method I use to turn ribs into hulls involves the use of "lofting" function in Fusion 360. It works pretty well in that you select two faces of a sketch and it creates a solid body between the two sketches *unless* the two sketches are at right angles to each other. This means you have to get creative and sometimes it takes multiple attempts to get the program to loft and then you need to go back in and adjust the sketches to get the right shape.   

 

With the Charles Martel, I ran into an even tougher problem - the transom is rounded on the sides and on the top which doubles the effort and experimentation to get it right.  I just got it right but I think it was more like "luck was on my side". I struggled for awhile only getting close and not being able to fully close the surfaces until I tried something a little different and it worked and I was able to take that and use if for the rest of the problem areas.

 

Charles Martel:

For those that want to read more about the Charles Martel follow this link - it's a translation of a Russian book that covers the the Martel and her four sister ships:  Carnot, Jauréguiberry, Bouvet, and Masséna.   https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fmilitary.wikireading.ru%2F35527

 

These 5 ships were called "sample ships" the design parameters were all the same in terms of high level performance, armor,  and armament direction, so built to a broadly similar design, but different enough to be considered unique vessels.....however there were 4 different designers (one designed two, the rest each had their own designer).   The design experiment of these ships was primarily the non-centerline armament arrangement. Subsequent ships produced later reverted back to the centerline type arrangement for the main armament. 

 

The Russian book above I linked to was somewhat critical of the design approach as most of the armor was concentrated along the waterline while most of the upper structure was thin metal that would leave the crew exposed.    This exposure was probably not significant when the designs were initially conceived as armor piercing rounds would pass right through and only cause damage to what was directly in the path of the shell. However by the time these ships were launched the advent of powerful, effective,  and reliable high explosive shells was descending on naval warfare and the absence of adequate protection above the waterline along with minimal watertight compartments meant these ships, including the Charles Martel, would not have a significant role in WW1. 

 

[fnkershner]

I am so glad to find this thread. For the past several months I have been teaching myself Fusion 360. I have found it very powerful. There is a steep learning curve but it does pay off. Particularly for someone like me who has never used any CAD/CAM S/W before. I have just recently started to experiment with the lofting command. So get ready I am going to bore you with lots of questions! 

 

So I am still more interested in using Fusion to create plans for wooden Sailing Ship based on blueprints, or creating a design for a CNC Router to cut a half hull. But first let me comment on your subject. I think this is a very interesting subject. These Pre-Dreadnought Battle ships are some of the last Tumblehome designs. It seems that the French were quite late in moving from Tumblehome to Flared design. There are some that feel that this contributed to the failure of the Russian Fleet during the Russo-Japan war. Most of the Russian ships were of a French design. While the Japanese were more modern and used the Flared approach. Tumblehome ships had poor protection below the waterline and were susceptible to capsizing. The Russians lost 2 ships this way.

 

PS most of the navies of the world watched the Russo-Japanese war with great interest. Afterwards almost all Tumblehome ships were scrapped.

 

I will organize my thoughts on Fusion and be back. Thanks again for starting this very interesting discussion.

Edited May 5, 2018 by fnkershner

[Hubac's Historian]

I like the lines of this ship and will follow along.  It seems that there is much to be gleaned from your methods in computer work, here, and I look forward to seeing the 3D translation.

[CDW]

Looks like a great project. Being very interested in 3D CAD and printing, will eagerly look forward to your posts.

[fnkershner]

Ok lets start with a question or 2. what is the total length of the model? How are you planning to print her? I assume in sections and you will lay them down with the cross section to the 3D printer bed to reduce the support structure required. If you print in sections are you planning something to assist the join? Such as a tab that overlaps.

 

How did you arrive at the hull design? For my project I have been thinking of establishing the initial plane as the deck (mirrored). The at points along the hull create construction planes and draw bulkheads on these planes. Then use loft to connect these bulkheads.

[Haze Gray]

6 hours ago, fnkershner said:

Ok lets start with a question or 2. what is the total length of the model? How are you planning to print her? I assume in sections and you will lay them down with the cross section to the 3D printer bed to reduce the support structure required. If you print in sections are you planning something to assist the join? Such as a tab that overlaps.

 

How did you arrive at the hull design? For my project I have been thinking of establishing the initial plane as the deck (mirrored). The at points along the hull create construction planes and draw bulkheads on these planes. Then use loft to connect these bulkheads.

Hi fnkershner, 

 

All really good questions - total length of the Charles Martel model in 1:72 is 1.6 meters or 5'3.6".  I'm currently printing out the hull sections of the USS Maine that I am also working on (see here: https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/18130-uss-maine-by-haze-gray-172-scale-radio-plastic-3d-printed)  I've printed hulls of different boats, usually I just glue them together but tabs can be good if they are done right - I do plan to add tabs to the USS Maine and the Charles Martel once I have figured out the best sections to slice the hull in. 

 

For the hull design I construct ribs as I'm 3d printing and want to control the thickness of the shell (see attached picture) and do use offset planes for each one and then loft. There's a lot of good videos on youtube for learning fusion 360 but not that many specific to boat hulls.  I have not yet played around with the Deft Ship software that's also a common tool but I'm interested to try it in the near future. 

 

[fnkershner]

I agree about the YouTube videos. Lots of good info. Not much for ship building. So your initial plane was the deck or the cross section along the keel? How big is your 3D printer? This is a large model.

[Haze Gray]

1 hour ago, fnkershner said:

I agree about the YouTube videos. Lots of good info. Not much for ship building. So your initial plane was the deck or the cross section along the keel? How big is your 3D printer? This is a large model.

Actually, you can start with either one (keel or deck). On the USS Maine I started with the deck, and on the Charles Martel I started with the keel (mostly because there's 3 deck levels on the Charles Martel and I needed some time to get my head wrapped around how best to do that. 

 

My printer is just big enough to print the largest cross section of the Charles Martel model but it's pretty wide - the USS Brooklyn for instance is about 10% narrower but it is also about 10% longer. German ships from around the same period are definitely narrower but noticeably longer. 

 

With my current nozzle size and print settings a full hull for the USS Maine would take 18 days of continuous printing but I am getting pretty good results - I'll probably be testing a larger nozzle this weekend and see how fast I can print at an acceptable quality level. 

[CDW]

Wow...18 days straight is a sobering thought.

What type of material are you printing with and what typer of glue is required?

[Hubac's Historian]

The thought that just occurred to me is that the computer technology available to us today makes it easier than ever to master a build, and thus create a commercial kit, and furthermore (oh, yes, I raised it to that level of furthermore) to interest young people, kids, in the hobby.  The primary obstacles to creating good, off the shelf and interesting scale models seem to be lifted now.

 

I am all for modelers creating projects from scratch, however, we can only approach that ambition through our introduction to the hobby, via kits.

 

As a parent, I realize this is a nurture vs. nature issue.  At the same time, though, the whole concept of the “hobby shop” seems like a relic of bygone times.

 

Not to soap-box too much, and if anything - to express my admiration for your drive to create your own model.

 

Just thinking out loud.  Just waxing on the shifting tides of generations.

[Haze Gray]

1 hour ago, CDW said:

Wow...18 days straight is a sobering thought.

What type of material are you printing with and what typer of glue is required?

I'm using eSun PLA+ which is pretty good for PLA, you just need to make sure (as with any PLA) you paint it as it can be sensitive to UV.    ABS is another material I'm considering.    For PLA, I've been using Jet Hot brand super glue, also the gorilla superglue is good. 

 

18 days might seem like a lot but the machine does all the work at that point and right now I have the hull split into 9 segments so about 48 hours each. It is a 1/72 scale boat and so not exactly on the small end of the scale although I can print a 1/96 scale version of it in 10 days and use about 1/2 the material. 

 

 

[Haze Gray]

1 minute ago, Hubac'sHistorian said:

The thought that just occurred to me is that the computer technology available to us today makes it easier than ever to master a build, and thus create a commercial kit, and furthermore (oh, yes, I raised it to that level of furthermore) to interest young people, kids, in the hobby.  The primary obstacles to creating good, off the shelf and interesting scale models seem to be lifted now.

 

I am all for modelers creating projects from scratch, however, we can only approach that ambition through our introduction to the hobby, via kits.

 

Yes, lots of things are changing - there are basically no more brick and mortar camera stores around in Seattle (maybe 2 I think) and the hobby stores are seem to be getting rarer as well.   I think the "ready to run" and "ready to fly" aren't good competition to the video games which has huge $ behind it as an industry.  Kids can learn to design and when they print something out they conceived themselves it does have much of the same satisfaction as when you construct something - you put some of yourself in there and once it's realized in the physical form there's the payoff. 

[CDW]

It only seems like a lot to me because I have 0 experience with 3D printing. I really had no idea how long it might take. But if I was forced to venture a guess before you advised on the length of time required, it would have been a much lower guestimate. I am assuming your 3D printer is NOT a low-end printer like my friend bought (and is experimenting with). From the video, yours appears a higher grade and slightly larger than his.

 

[Haze Gray]

38 minutes ago, CDW said:

It only seems like a lot to me because I have 0 experience with 3D printing. I really had no idea how long it might take. But if I was forced to venture a guess before you advised on the length of time required, it would have been a much lower guestimate. I am assuming your 3D printer is NOT a low-end printer like my friend bought (and is experimenting with). From the video, yours appears a higher grade and slightly larger than his.

 

I've been 3D printing for awhile so I'm no stranger to longer print times.  The first time I did a big part I did took 24 hours and I thought that there was no chance of it completing successfully, but it works and it did.    I think the key part of 3D printing is that you spend your labor hours designing, and then you turn it over to the machine to actually produce - meanwhile you put in a day at work, have dinner,  play with the kids, etc...  

[CDW]

Do you know of any ready-to-print 3D files of ship models out there?

My buddy has found many ready-to-print files for RC aircraft, so I assume there might be some for ship models, too.

[tomwilberg]

Haze Gray,

 

an ambitious project you are running.

Since you didn't drop a word about your sources except a Russian forum:

I wonder if you know about the Builder's yard plan sets available from the French Navy Historians (Service Historique de la a Defense). The web site is currently offline, but there are enough backup copies around.

 

Regards

Thomas

 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by tomwilberg

[Haze Gray]

29 minutes ago, tomwilberg said:

Haze Gray,

 

an ambitious project you are running.

Since you didn't drop a word about your sources except a Russian forum:

I wonder if you know about the Builder's yard plan sets available from the French Navy Historians (Service Historique de la a Defense). The web site is currently offline, but there are enough backup copies around.

 

Regards

Thomas

 

 

Hello Thomas, 

 

I believe I was able to get a complete copy of all the files that were up on the Service Historique de la a Defense site ( I think!) yes there are a lot of copies around on the Internet including those at the "dreadnought project" website. 

As far as the Charles Martel goes - there's very little out there that I'm aware of, and the Russian site I listed is probably among the best I found. I even have another book in Russian that is about as good.  If anyone has another reference please let me know.  The French battleship Carnot I have found very little on (almost nothing) in the way of plans, much less than any of it's sister ships. 

 

[Haze Gray]

2 hours ago, CDW said:

Do you know of any ready-to-print 3D files of ship models out there?

My buddy has found many ready-to-print files for RC aircraft, so I assume there might be some for ship models, too.

Hi CDW, 

 

As far as ready to 3D print boats....there are not many that I have found and only one or two interested me.  If you search Thingverse for "calypso" that's a pretty good one - it's not designed for RC but can be modified to be.  It's pretty well done, and there's some detail parts that will put any printer to the test for sure (crane winchs, etc. 

 

That's really what prompted me to start designing myself - the boats I really was looking for were simply not there!

[Haze Gray]

Sharing some more on the Charles Martel Build - I worked a little on the forward outward turrets and their mounting/rotation axels - I haven't quite got it right as I have yet to find a clear photo that is 90° to the side.  I decided to take a break and sketch up a cradle from the boat that I can lay it in while i work on it as it's no fun working on a hull on the ground - tends to not stay still.  

 

 

[fnkershner]

Haze Grey - A few posts back you mentioned Seattle. Do you live in the Puget Sound region? We have a club - The Puget Sound Ship Modelers. I would love to meet you and compare notes on Fusion360. Please PM me with an email address.

[CDW]

I just searched for Fusion 360 software and found that I can have my college student daughter download the program for me for free. Cool.

[Haze Gray]

42 minutes ago, CDW said:

I just searched for Fusion 360 software and found that I can have my college student daughter download the program for me for free. Cool.

Hi CDW - it's free also for hobby enthusiasts too - "For startups generating <$100k/year in total revenue or wholly non-commercial users:" 

here's the link: how to activate startup or educational licensing

 

And if you have a EAA membership you can get solidworks 2006 I think. I have solidworks through that program also but really haven't delved into it yet.  Fusion 360 has alot of info online and via youtube but basically no books - Solidworks is the other way around - it has lots and lots of books on how to you. 

 

I got enough use out of fusion 360 that I'm paying the $40 a month which gets me a reliable uptime for the server. 

[qwerty2008]

4 hours ago, CDW said:

I just searched for Fusion 360 software and found that I can have my college student daughter download the program for me for free. Cool.

You can actually get it for free if you're a hobbyist or a startup. No need to get a student licence. 

[fnkershner]

Fusion 360 is Cloud based. So you can store your designs on the web and share with others easily. Also several people can work on the same design.

[Thistle17]

I have been following these threads of "technology" introduction into this wonderful hobby/art form. I am also a woodworker and have seen the same thing happening there. Tonight I attend a "Period Furniture"  SIG and the topic is on a newly acquired CNC vertical mill with attendant new software for design. One product this individual makes is a wooden bench vise screw, a very complicated part. I find this all so fascinating. My background is in real time machine control but I find myself fighting what I perceive as a "tension" with these new technology introductions into any of these pursuits. Where do I spend my time is probably at the heart of the tension as I am beginning to realize I am not immortal. Do I spend my time at the computer or do I spend my time at the bench?

 

How do you early adopters feel about it?

 

Joe

[CDW]

1 hour ago, Thistle17 said:

I have been following these threads of "technology" introduction into this wonderful hobby/art form. I am also a woodworker and have seen the same thing happening there. Tonight I attend a "Period Furniture"  SIG and the topic is on a newly acquired CNC vertical mill with attendant new software for design. One product this individual makes is a wooden bench vise screw, a very complicated part. I find this all so fascinating. My background is in real time machine control but I find myself fighting what I perceive as a "tension" with these new technology introductions into any of these pursuits. Where do I spend my time is probably at the heart of the tension as I am beginning to realize I am not immortal. Do I spend my time at the computer or do I spend my time at the bench?

 

How do you early adopters feel about it?

 

Joe

I'm probably too old to change. But if I was young and starting out fresh, technology would be the way to go. Opens up so many exciting possibilities.

My concern is whether or not I will be willing at this stage of life to put in the hours required just to learn the software. Been there and done that before I retired with many complex software programs so I know and understand what is required to learn it well enough to be proficient.