HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey, I see what you mean. I will try drawing a sketch in a while to study how all of this comes together. A fiendish corner, methinks!

 

Mark

[druxey]

It has its interesting moments!

[SJSoane]

So here is a section at the head, showing how the planking of the beakhead butts into the side of the hull frame, but the moldings sail by and attach onto the forward face of the frame, and then butt into the head rail. Thanks, Siggi and druxey, this was subtle to see, but straightforward construction once drawn.

 

Mark

Edited June 25, 2019 by SJSoane

[garyshipwright]

Mark thats a nice drawing. I have allways liked your drawing. Is it possible to see one of a head on view? Thank you sir. Gary

[SJSoane]

Hi Gary,

 

I  haven't drawn it yet, but I probably should now since I have the parts more clearly in my mind right now. Thanks for the suggestion. We have house guests coming soon, so it may be a little while before I have something to show...

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

Hmm, working on the beakhead bulkhead today, I noticed that the roundhouse seat of ease for the warrant officers was a very tiny enclosure indeed, and difficult to get into.

 

You can see the roundhouse in profile as the structure with the moldings, sitting on top of the small elevated platform over the upper deck at the bow. From my inspecting captains you can see that it is not tall enough to stand up within, and to get into it, you have to step up 2'-0" feet from the upper deck to the platform, and get through a door only 3'-4" tall.

 

It must have been fun when you were in a hurry....

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Mark could the door have been on the inside of the beak head bulkhead. Thought I saw a photo or maybe it was the victory that showed this. If so wouldn't that given them a couple of more feet with a set of stairs to help get you in there.  Think I see if I  can found the door. Gary

[SJSoane]

Even worse, when I see what happens in three dimensions, the hull frame (the dogleg end seen below) intrudes into the roundhouse by half its width at the floor. So the door is only 1' 4" wide at the bottom. There had to have been a small ladder up to this, with a platform for turning around and inserting oneself into the little gap opening onto the seat.

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

Gary,

 

Here is what the original plan shows, with the roundhouse at the face of the beakhead bulkhead. I seem to recall seeing a ladder and platform in photos of another ship model, maybe the Princess Royal reconstruction. I will look around as well. This would have been impossible to use without some help aft of the roundhouse itself!

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark here is a photo of the Victory showing the doorway with a little set of stairs. Gary

[SJSoane]

And here is my photo of the original Bellona model, showing the little door to the roundhouse opening just to the right of the arched door to the platform. That space is 3'-4" tall...

 

 

[SJSoane]

Gary, 

 

Thanks, that would have to be the answer. I'll try working that into my drawings.

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Mark go to the gallery at the top of the page, then go to page 2 and there are a few outstanding photo's of the head work of 74's. When you look at them as a whole it makes it look like the had a lot more room. Even the Bellona is there. Gary

[druxey]

As a petty officer you would be sitting - and then remember not to stand up too quickly! Is it possible that the seat was not more than a few inches higher than the platform (it is situated outboard) to allow a little more headroom?

Edited June 27, 2019 by druxey

[SJSoane]

There is definitely some hocus-pocus going on with the drawings and the model. After looking at the location of the roundhouse in my paper cut-out in #1357 above, the hole barely clears the hull below while leaving little room for a door inboard; way less door than the model shows in #1360 above, and less clearance over the hull than the plan in #1358 shows. And the plan in #1358 shows a stanchion at the outboard edge of the roundhouse that could not be placed there because the dog-leg hull frame takes up the same space. 

 

druxey, I thought about whether the seat was a lower platform, but the drawing shows it well into the roundhouse, a longer distance from the aft edge of the platform beam than a typical human thigh could reach. Or, maybe the draftsman did not realize the three dimensional aspect of this feature, and the shipwrights had to move the hole within the roundhouse further aft in compensation.

 

I am concluding it really was a tiny cubby, reached by a ladder, requiring a dextrous bending down and simultaneous twist of the body to insert oneself backwards into a space little wider than one's hips. Such were the privileges of the petty officers. At least it was better than the entirely open seats of ease out in the weather on the platform!

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Mark the stanchion at the dog leg landed some what on the dog leg frame. I believe that's what I found when I was working on alfred, sort of rebate in to it. More like a half stanchion. 

[druxey]

Rees, Naval Archtecture, Plate VI, shows a small fore and aft bulkhead protruding from the beakhead bulkhead with a door on the aft side to allow a little more space within the head. Goodwin, The Sailing Man of War, page 182, shows the roundhouse without any door or enclosure inboard. It's just a small nook, really.

[Siggi52]

Hello Mark,

 

the floor plan of the gun deck is lower than the platform with the roundhouse. I tried to make a sketch.

The sheer plan and body plan

 

here I laid both plans together at the Y- frame

At least should the roundhouses be at this platform, as the picture of the Superb (sister ship of the Bellona) clearly shows.

At the picture, where you made this paper platform, the front part of it is the gun deck, a little lower and smaler. So I think you have there a problem with the scale. The beak-head bulkhead should be narrower there. 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Siggi, my mistake in not showing it clearly enough. Here is a drawing showing the platform above the upper deck, and the captain's hat is touching the forecastle deck (not shaded yet). I drew in the stool, and a possible ladder to it. This shows that the hole in the stool itself is quite close to the entrance to the roundhouse, and therefore one does not have to climb very far in. But it also shows just how low the headroom is, under the foremost beam of the forecastle (with the cattail beam above). This also shows there is no need for full headroom within the roundhouse, because one can never get in to stand up anyway.

 

Gary, thanks, I see what you mean about the little stanchion at the outboard end. It fays into the top of the dogleg, and it is needed to form one of the verticals of the railing above. I will try to draw that presently.

 

Mark

 

 

[AON]

Facinating discussion.

 

The NCO would possibly not have so ornate a head covering.

 

They also would not want it to be too comfortable so as to keep it unoccupied/available.  😆

[Siggi52]

Good morning Mark,

 

my reply goes more in the direction that you feared that there is no way in, because the dog leg frame is there in the way. So that would be eliminated when you build the roundhouses directly at the platform and not so far outside as you showed us with your paper platform in post #1357/8 The outside planking goes there also in a curve down, so you could only build the roundhouse at the platform.

 

The problem with the high, it's only 5ft and some inches under the cattail beam, is an other. There I could only speculate. May be the stool is lower to the floor and the person who would use it had to stay outside at a step and sit down? 

Shame in these things was in the 18th century not already invented. I saw uni sex toilets behind the kitchen tract of a mansion for the servants. There was a long bench with 6 or 8 holes in a row without any screen between them and no wall in front. So they had always a good sight in the woods and fresh air. That is luxury!

[druxey]

The seat would be perhaps 12" to 15 high at most. Your drawing appears to make this closer to 18" high.

[SJSoane]

Here is the beakhead bulkhead looking aft on the left, and forward on the right. I now see the door out to the platform is just as short as the one into the roundhouse, so I guess they did not mind bending over a lot--like they had a choice...

 

And now I see the access to the roundhouse, and knowing the seat is close to the aft end, it does not seem so awkward. Very public, next to the door out, but less public than the seats of ease on the platform itself.

 

Thanks, druxey, I dropped the height of the seat in this drawing. It looks better than the one in the section.

 

Now on to cutting some wood...

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

Hi Alan, good points. My interpretation of the scene is that the boatswain complained to the captain about the facilities, and the captain is making an inspection...😀

[garyshipwright]

Mark in the book Legacy of a Ship Model, the Princess Royal 1773 by Rob Napier, page 91, he has a picture of the aft side  of the port round house and it is not very deep at all and no door was installed on it. Sort of like being in a out house with no walls or door.  Wonder were the hung the rope/ toilet paper.  Mark I took a second look at more of the photos of the Princess Royal and seems that it did in fact have door's for the round house. There is also a photo that shows the dog leg frame( the core of the model which looks just like what you have drawn. Good job sir. Gary

Edited June 29, 2019 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

We are now well into our summer visitor season, and I have had little time for the shop. When I can sneak away, I keep working on drawing the inboard works in preparation for the planking inboard and out.

 

I have a question for those familiar with rigging. I have copied from the image in Lavery's Bellona the kevels and staghorns on the quarterdeck bulwarks (see below). Does anyone know what lines belay to these? It will help me judge how big the sheaves need to be. There appear to be 7 belaying points per side, three kevels with sheaves and two double staghorns.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

Edited July 26, 2019 by SJSoane

[mtaylor]

I had to go peek at my copy... there's rigging but no belaying which surprised me.  If you have a copy, have a look at Lee's Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860.   Since the rigging is in Lavery's, you should be able to trace the rigging to the belay point in Lee's.

[SJSoane]

That question is going to have to wait for another day. Lavery's rigging drawing doesn't really show any lines going to the bulwarks around the area of the mainmast.  Lennarth Petersson's Rigging Period Ship Models shows a number of lines belaying to pins in this area, but the Bellona pre-dates belaying pins, and a cross reference to Lees's descriptions of belaying points (no drawing) has most of the Petersson lines belaying elsewhere. It may take a long winter evening to track down every line in the limited resources I have regarding rigging in this period.

 

One would think that the kevels and staghorns would have belayed some pretty significant lines, as opposed to belaying to railings. Oh, well, more detective work ahead.

 

Meanwhile, I finally got a day in the shop, and picked up again by refining the main wales in anticipation of painting them. To ensure an even thickness of the top, where the set-back black strake will reveal any inconsistencies, I made a sanding block with the right thickess for the wale as a spacer, and a curved face to match the curve of the wale. This is bringing the wales into a consistent thickness and form.

 

A recent visitor showed off a new camera by taking three photos of my gundeck, each overlapping the other, and then stitched them together in Adobe's Lightroom to make one image, everything in focus. A nice trick I will use for later decks....

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

 

[druxey]

Nice trick in Lightroom, but it's a bit disconcerting to see the shadows of your beautiful framing beneath going off in different directions!

 

Is Lees' belaying plan and notes for Medway of 1742 (pages  175-176, second edition) any help for you?

Edited July 26, 2019 by druxey

[SJSoane]

druxey, aha, I had missed that plate in Lees. I'll have a good look this weekend. Thanks!

 

Mark