HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[Mark P]

Hi Mark;

 

Will she sail away for a year and a day,  if you can find an owl?

[SJSoane]

If I remember the story correctly, it would require a pea green boat, and I am too far along to consider a color change...tough luck for the cat! 

 

I did manage to glue in the waterway on the port side, masking the deck so the glue would not go astray. The ship cat did not help, since she was busy drinking out of the jar of water I was about to use to clean my glue brush. Can't get good help these days.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Time has begun to work on the wales. I have clamped a batten to prove the upper edge, and will live with it a night to see if it still looks fair in the morning. You can see the snow piling up out the window; good time to work on the ship!

 

Mark

 

 

[Mike Y]

Beautiful! 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Mike, the beauty of that underwater form keeps me going.

 

I reflected on setting up the wales last night, and it bothered me that I could not see the fairness of the wale past the clamps on the batten.

I re-read appropriate portions Ed Tosti's Naiad book, and saw that he used painter's tape. I tried this, and it works much, much better. I can see both top and bottom. And sighting down the length really highlights the low or high spots. In this case, I saw a low spot at the fifth gunport from the bow, and could fair in another piece of tape to get the edge just right. Thanks, Ed, much better process. Now, thinking about how to cut the hooked scarph joints that are so distinctive in the first Bellona model of 1760.

 

Mark

 

[druxey]

I find black thread spot glued with dilute white glue useful for this exercise: it's easy to roll the thread up or down with a wet finger to adjust the run of the curve.

[albert]

Hi Mark, I will very much follow your beautiful work, compliments and good continuation.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey, I might try that on the port side and see which one works for me. I like the idea of tracing against the edge of the tape to put pencil on the hull, although the string might give a fairer line.

Thanks, albert, I hope I can continue to make it interesting.

 

By way of interesting, I spent the day looking carefully again at the joints on the wales of the 1760 first Bellona model, shown in frame. It is unusual, to say the least.

 

As the sketch below shows, the top two strakes labelled with B are standard top-and-butt, each 33 feet long with 22 feet and 11 feet arms.

 

The lower two strakes, however, are all over the place. Starting at the right side (fore), there are a number of anchor stock pieces labeled A. These are 22 feet long, with equal arms. Aft of these are 2 top-and-butts, the same as the ones in the upper two strakes, labeled B.

 

And then there are two top-and-butts labeled (D) and (E) that are not the same size as any other pieces in the wales, nor are the arms a standard ⅓-⅔ proportion. Strangest of all, the aft end of (D) aligns with the butts of the B pieces above. This would not appear to be a good structural idea.

 

And finally, heading aft, the wales finish with more top-and-butt pieces labeled C, which are 22 feet long, the same as the anchor stock pieces labeled A at the fore end.

 

I have looked at the photos of the model very carefully, and I believe this accurately captures what the model builder actually created. Was it an experiment, or an accurate representation of what was really built in the actual ship? The model hull is framed differently on each side, showing some experimental ideas about framing around gunports. Perhaps this was a proposal for radically shifting butts on the wales. Wales are only shown on the port side of the model.

 

Whatever the reason, I am determined to recreate it on my own Bellona. So now I have to think about how many of these can be cut by a standard template, as shown by Longridge's Victory or Ed Tosti's Naiad.

 

 

[SJSoane]

The wales have a distinctive S curve when they are expanded to their actual length and shape (1st image). That means that a number of pieces particularly at the bow have a noticeable curve to their edges (2nd image). I cut a piece of boxwood to the required thickness (8 ½" @ scale 3/16" inch = .039" actual), and this piece does not bend in its longitudinal length. So it looks to me like I need to cut blanks oversize in the transverse direction, so I can shape the required curve to the lower edge. But I have not seen any reference to this need in David Antscherl's books, or in Ed Tosti's. Am I missing something?

 

And whether I shape these to fit, or they bend to fit, I feel I need some physical guide to align the lower edge, rather than just a pencil line. The 17th and early 18th century dockyard framing style I am building shows just a thin line of the bottoms of upper futtocks below the wales (third image). I need to keep the wales very parallel to this line or the differences will be quite noticeable. Perhaps form a temporary aligning batten that can be clamped to the frames below the wales?

 

Or am I overthinking this?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

Mark

[EdT]

Mark,

 

Naiad did not have the intricate shapes that the larger ships seem to have had.   I used standard anchor-stock shapes and boiled.bent them to fit, sometimes with some post drying trimming - as I recall.  You may take a look at parts 88-90 in the Naiad b log.

 

Ed

[druxey]

Yes, those planks should be spiled if you want a perfect result. I've always been suspicious of Longridge's 'one size fits all' jig for anchor stock wale planking. It doesn't work, at least, for me. 

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Ed and druxey. More work, but I think the circumstances here call for it. Good to know before I cut a bunch of wood too small!

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

After exploring how to shape with machines the hooked scarphs for the wales, I have determined that the geometry changes for each piece, and that it would be more effective to cut them by hand. I then recalled Gary (garyshipwright) installing wales for his beautiful model of HMS Alfred. (I have tried to attach a link to his site, but it appears to go to the end rather than to the relevant pages. It is somewhere around page 4).

 

Gary temporarily attached a batten above the wale, to which he clamped the upper strakes  for a fair run. Subsequent lower strakes were clamped to the upper strake. It seems like a good idea, and I will try it. I also see that Gary laid up the wales in two layers, practicing on the first layer. I will see how well I can cut and bend 8 ½" thick pieces before deciding if I will do this in two layers as well. Getting in some practice on these complex pieces makes it feel less daunting...

 

Gary, I haven't seen a post from you for a while, hope you see this!

 

I tried string on the port side for fairing and decided that the tape gave me something to draw against. Now that I am determined to cut each piece to fit, I will want to draw the individual parts on the model sides to know where I am going. The tape also helped me visualize whether the two sides are the same.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[druxey]

Looking good, Mark. However, is it the angle of the bow photo, or does the wale appear to widen at the bow?

[SJSoane]

Yes I noticed that as well. The value of photos! I will double check some points off the sheer and see what is going on.

Thanks for checking!

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

Yes, indeed, I had the marks at the rabbet a smidge too high. I think they are parallel now. Easier to see in a photo than staring at the model itself. ..

Thanks again, Druxey.

[SJSoane]

With so many individual wale pieces with many different dimensions, I decided to draw an expanded elevation of the wales, from which I could make accurate cut templates.

 

However, my architectural background did not prepare me for how to do an expansion of a curved surface. In the drawing below, how are the station lines in plan projected to the true length line? Do you draw a perpendicular from the wale in plan at each station line, to the true length line, as I am showing in the circled detail? It seems it would make the wale way too long right at the rabbet in the stem, since a perpendicular there would be almost parallel to the true length line...

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

[EdT]

Hello. Mark.

 

These are all interesting and challenging drafting riddles that were undoubtedly never dreamed of in the shipyard.  At this stage of a problem like this, I usually say, "Ed, think like a shipwright."  My starting point would probably be to make and fit one, then make the adjacent one to fit it.  At least some of this fitting would be after bending the planks.  Just a suggestion from someone who delights in drafting true views of strange shapes.

 

Cheers,

 

Ed

[SJSoane]

 

Ed, that sounds like good advice. I measured the physical length of the wale between two station lines in plan, and plotted this on the true length line. It doesn't measure the true length along the slight curve between the station lines, but probably close enough. I only need this for templates for cutting rough blanks, and the finished parts can be refined on installation.

 

Mark

 

[AON]

This is where the 3D programs come in handy for templates of sheet metal work.

If the outside of the hull were given a thickness (or thin-ness!) the program would create a flat view of true length as a pattern.

Having said that, and knowing the build versus the plan are three different things, I'd like to think that I'd measure off the build and plot it as you're doing.

Rough blanks and trim to fit.

 

In the old pencil draughting days we'd calculate the distances and then create (plot) the flat (pattern) view.

Alan

[druxey]

If drawing mechanically, use a paper strip. You can pivot it about your pencil point as you move the strip around a curve, deriving a pretty accurate 'real' length in this manner.

[Mark P]

Hi Mark;

 

Just one thing that you might not have noticed:  the wales on the model are not planked with anchor stock,  or top and butt,  but with 'hook & butt'.  I have attached a sketch of this. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

Bellona wale drawing.pdf

Edited November 15, 2017 by Mark P

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Ed, druxey, Alan and Mark, for the ideas and comments. We had visitors today, and spent most of the day driving to Glacier National Park in northern Montana. But in the early morning and late afternoon, I managed to finish up the drawing.

 

Using a combination of CAD and a version of druxey's shuffle around the corner, I think I got a fairly accurate expansion.

 

Mark, thanks for the note on the hooked joints. I have guessed from proportionally measuring the photos of the Bellona model that the hooks are 2 1/2" long, and incline 30 degrees to the line drawn between the two ends. Let me know if you have a different understanding. This should be very interesting to construct!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

[Mark P]

Hi Mark;

 

I think you are right about the angle of the hooks:  it is not perpendicular to the angled line as I have drawn it.

 

One important point is that the widest part of the plank is normally at the mid-point of the plank.  I have looked in Goodwin to see what he says,  and he does not illustrate or describe this technique,  unfortunately,  but I am sure that in the examples I have seen it is based on the 'anchor stock' style,  where planks are symmetrical.  Having said that,  it does appear that some on the model are not symmetrical.  That might be because of the approach to the bow,  though.  It might be worth a little checking before you cut any wood,  though. 

 

I have looked at my pictures of models,  and unfortunately,  they all appear to have wales which are made from a single plank the width of the wale;  so no help there.

 

By the way,  an interesting thing:  the modeller of the NMM Bellona has made a mistake in his wale,  and has made one of the hooks the wrong way round:  it would pull apart with no trouble,  not lock together against a pull. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark and thanks for asking. Seems that life has been keeping me busy, some times good sometimes not so good. I am keeping a eye on you and the other good folks here and must say you are doing a outstanding job. At the moment am building a hobby bench to replace what I am using at the moment which is a make shift desk. If you get the magazine Woodsmith, on the cover, it shows the hobby bench, vol 37/ no 219. Should look real nice when I get it finshed. On a different not, on the wale there is a plan that shows the wale on, I believe a 74 and gives the shape and size of the wale pieces. I have to find the plan and get you a number for it and I will see if I can at least post up one of the photos of it. Hope it helps you. Excuse the plan of the Lyon can't seem to get rid of it.  Gary

Edited November 16, 2017 by garyshipwright

[EdT]

Hello, Gary.  It is good to see that you are still tuning in and keeping an eye on us.  Miss your posts and contributions.

 

Ed

[garyshipwright]

27 minutes ago, EdT said:

Hello, Gary.  It is good to see that you are still tuning in and keeping an eye on us.  Miss your posts and contributions.

 

Ed

Hi Ed and thank you. Love this hobby to much to be to far away. Looking forward to your next book. The last ones were a hit on my list. Gary

[dvm27]

Tough job, but I know you're up to it Mark. Look at Pandora model by Nareem, a Russian ship model builder http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/pandora/index.htm On some of the bottom photos you can see his hook and but planking details (although only partially planked).

[SJSoane]

Gary, great to hear from you. Hope things work out for you to pick up the Alfred again. And you have a wealth of information for us all. And thanks, Greg, I will check out the Pandora model.

 

Mark, could you point out for me where the hook is backwards? I confess that I looked at the model for the locations of planks, but drew my own hooks in without reference back to the model. So I missed seeing the mistake in the model.

 

I became fixated on creating the wales on the Bellona exactly as they were done on the first model, using the various photos of that model to match joints to framing and gunport locations. The pattern that emerged from this exercise was surprisingly messy. The pieces "anchor" fashion were sometimes, but not always, equal length arms; sometimes one arm was 12-16 inches longer than another. The "top-and-butt" arms were sometimes a proportion of 1/3 to 2/3, but not always. The top two strakes were a more regular pattern of similar sized top-and-butt, but the bottom two strakes were a mish-mash of different sizes top-and-butt and some anchor thrown in.

 

Was this real practice, or a quirky model builder? Some contemporary drawings of planking show a little more regularity. The butt ends of four planks coming together in one place on the Bellona wale seems structurally weak, and Mark discovered a backwards hook on that model. Maybe the apprentice did the wales on this model, and I am trying to reproduce a novice's first efforts at wales 250 years ago!

 

Oh, well, it will be what it will be, as best as I can build it.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your help with this.

[druxey]

As long as you shift the butts properly in correct sequence, you should be all right.