HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[SJSoane]

Hi Gaetan, I have wondered about building at your 1:24 scale, since I highly admire your work. But I would have no room in the house for the final project!

 

I was just given a booklet, entitled "Building a Model of the Flying Cloud, by James Tate, 1929. It has a lot of interesting information, and also images of how modelers apparently used to dress, with tie and waistcoat. At least the waistcoat keeps the tie from wrapping around your lathe!

 

I am proceeding with finishing the wales. Pretty straightforward after lots of practice so far on this little project. Here are a few unusual items of note:

 

In the third photo, I am showing a strake that still had too much springback after clamping to the hull overnight, I avoided forcing the piece into place by faying a small spacer onto the inner face to match the curve of the hull, and after it was attached, I faired the outer face to match the rest.

 

The first photo shows a jeweler's clamp I bought many, many years ago, and never used. But I have acquired a case of tendonitis, which makes it painful to hold small pieces for sanding. This clamp eases the pain. Should have used this years ago.

 

The final photos show progress, including a closeup of the hooked joints.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by SJSoane

[Hubac's Historian]

Such a stunningly clean build!

[druxey]

Yup, that's how my father dressed to do hobbies! 

[EdT]

I don't doubt it, Druxey.  I am old enough to remember when construction workers on UK job-sites wore ties.  I can specifically recall one cement finisher, some pipefitters, and a few insulators.  Cheers.

 

Ed

[SJSoane]

I wonder if the Nautical Research Guild would do a line of neckties for modeling...👔 Pretty sure I would not wear one, but you never know.

 

I am three strakes away from the end. The last ones will require some bending and shaping, so will slow down my progress a little.

 

While waiting for glue to dry, I started thinking ahead to some next steps. At some point, I need to install the guns on the gundeck. I have not figured out a way to pin them in place, since I will not have decking under them. Perhaps a spacer connecting to the spirketting, as shown in the red rectangle in the drawing below?

 

Mark

[druxey]

Would you 'float' the trucks above the deck framing? Will  the guns be secure enough with just a spacer? If you don't want bits of plank below the trucks, perhaps small pieces of clear acrylic?

[Alex M]

Hello Mark,

 

I'm glad you are back and work on Bellona!

 

Alex

[SJSoane]

druxey, I have pondered putting little dabs of wood planking under each truck, but it seemed it would be confusing. Acrylic is an interesting idea. Do you know of any examples where someone has tried this? Would it be a little rectangle under the entire carriage, or separate pieces under each truck? I imagine I could drill down through the trucks into the acrylic for pins. The deck is 4" at 3/16" scale, so only a 1/16" actual.

 

Hi Alex, thanks for the welcome back. It has been a long time! I was just looking at your Sphynx build, admiring your gun barrels. My efforts at casting metal guns have not been satisfactory, and I was thinking about turning them like you did. Can you show me the shape of the cutting bit you used with your duplicator, to allow cutting close up to each side of a ring, but still having a smooth surface in the rest of the barrel?

 

Mark

[Sailor1234567890]

Wait..... You don't wear a tie and waistcoat in your shop? Am I the only one who does?  

[Alex M]

Hello Mark,

 

here is the setup for turning gun barrels with duplicator. It shows also the shape of cutting tool:

Alex

[druxey]

No, I've not tried acrylic 'pads', Mark - it was just an idea.

[SJSoane]

Thanks Alex, I will try grinding down a cutting tool like yours, and have a go with the duplicator. I may have additional questions once I get started!

 

druxey, you really got me thinking about the deck. In the middle of the night, I suddenly wondered why many years ago I had rejected the idea of decking under the guns. I think at the time I wanted to show off all of the deck framing. But once I realized this will all be covered up with subsequent decks, I thought why not just build 5 strakes of decking under the guns and be done with it. I will have photos of the original framing to remind me what it looked like, and a solid deck is going to be a much better anchoring point for the guns. I do worry about them shifting around over the years to come, when it will be exceedingly difficult to get in and re-fix one in place if it comes adrift.

 

The first photo shows what it might look like, with the correct thickness of planks. The second photo shows that I have one plank left in the wales, before the carved one at the very aft end. This one also has a nasty bend, and I have had to fay a spacer on the end as I did on the starboard side. Should be done tomorrow!

[dvm27]

I was wondering about that Mark, as the guns looked to be sitting a bit low in the ports without the decking under them. As I have learned, much of your painstaking work will be hidden once you add the deck(s) above. But we'll always have those photos (which we never look at).

[MEDDO]

Maybe in 200 years or so someone will send in some kind of camera nanobot to look around 😀

[Jack12477]

1 hour ago, MEDDO said:

Maybe in 200 years or so someone will send in some kind of camera nanobot to look around 😀

 I think they already do. I read that they used a medical endoscope to examine the interiors of the ship model in the Rogers Collection at Annapolis.

[Mark P]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:32 PM, SJSoane said:

While waiting for glue to dry, I started thinking ahead to some next steps. At some point, I need to install the guns on the gundeck. I have not figured out a way to pin them in place, since I will not have decking under them. Perhaps a spacer connecting to the spirketting, as shown in the red rectangle in the drawing below?

Evening Mark;

 

I am not sure where the drawing came from,  but just in case you are not aware of this, it is not accurate. My apologies if you already know, but the bottom of the spirketting is wrong on both decks.

 

The waterway has a hollow curve, but the spirketting is flat. It would waste an awful lot of wood and be a lot of work to produce it as drawn.

 

All the best,  and keep up the inspirational work!

 

Mark P

Edited November 11, 2018 by Mark P

[Alex M]

Hello Mark,

 

here a better image of the setup and drawing showing the duplicator principle. I have changed this afterwards and turned the cannon pattern. Important: the width of cutting tool and taster should be the same, then you will be able to cut rings from both sides.

Alex

Edited November 11, 2018 by Alex M

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Greg for the affirmation of my decision to install planking below the guns. It seems really obvious at this point, I don't know why I was resisting the idea for so long. And Michael and Jack, I hope an endoscope never finds its way inside the Bellona; too many unsightly details to reveal to the world! The photos I keep for when the deck is no longer visible may have a little photoshopping to do...

 

Mark, thank you for catching that mistake. It is my drawing, and I am not sure where I picked up the curved spirketting; maybe just in my head. All of my sources show it as you describe. I will correct it. No wood cut yet.

 

Thanks, Alex, for more detail on your duplicator. I looked again at the 32# gun I had turned as the master for my previous casting efforts. It looks way better than the casting efforts, so I am resolved to see if I can turn these in multiples with a duplicator as you have shown. My biggest challenge turning this master is that when I used a sharp pointed cutter to get into the sides of the mouldings, it left a ragged finish on the longer smooth surfaces. I had to clean up with a file. The secret looks to be a thin cutter with a small flat face.

 

With the last but one plank installed and waiting to dry, I turned my attention to the next steps on the gundeck. I am installing the first strakes on either side of the fittings down the center, before tackling the planking under the guns.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

 

 

I used another method with Unimat Lathe.

The difficulty in taper turning is to set the angle of the taper.

This setup has no angles to adjust

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

13 minutes ago, SJSoane said:

My biggest challenge turning this master is that when I used a sharp pointed cutter to get into the sides of the mouldings,

 

here is the cutters I use

[Hubac's Historian]

I’m sorry Mark, but I have to call you on your modesty.  Yours is approaching Amalio standards of flawless execution.  He’s in a class, all his own, but you are not far behind.

 

Recently, I saw the Kriegstein Collection model of the Royal James at an exhibition of the Dutch maritime master painters in Washington, D.C..

 

Now, this is an amazing example of the model makers’ art, of the period.  Yet, when compared with much of the work being done today, it seems positively crude by comparison.  Of course, the circumstances under which these models were made dictated that they speed up their process a little, and take certain shortcuts in their representation and/or omission of various details.  Nevertheless, the models being made today are much more complete and meticulous records of previously obscured and forgotten knowledge.  Your efforts and the efforts of everyone else that is dedicated to their process should inspire the next generation of modelers to jump down the rabbit hole.

 

Just incredible!  Take a bow, my friend, because you’ve earned it!

Edited November 11, 2018 by Hubac's Historian

[SJSoane]

Hi Gaetan, so you use different cutters for different parts of the barrel. Are you using a duplicator, or cutting and then regularly checking length and diameter against a template?

 

Mark, here is the corrected section drawing. Does that look more accurate? I also adjusted the black strake in this drawing, to reflect the conversation earlier in this thread.

[druxey]

I used to pattern/duplicator turn my guns on a Unimat. The taper angle had to be a trial and error offset of the headstock. I found I needed a very fine-tip cutting bit for the reinforcing rings. Eventually I realized that it was not the best method of producing multiples, so made masters in wood. (By this time I also had a watchmaker's lathe, whose cross-slide could adjust for taper turning.) These masters were cast in clam-shell RTV molds supported by an outer dental plaster shells, then cast my cannon and carronades in lead-free pewter.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Hubac's Historian, those are very kind words. Interesting to hear about the quality of the Royal James. It is curiously reassuring to see that the 18th century model masters were not perfect, because I keep trying to reach what I thought was their level of perfection. In that regard, I really enjoyed reading Rob Napier's Legacy of a Shop Model about the HMS Princess Royal model of 1773. He discovered all sorts of mistakes and re-makes in that model, which did let me drop my expectations a little. If those model makers worked at my speed, they would have completed one model in their lifetimes. Probably not a good business plan!

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

druxey, those are gorgeous cannon! what is the finish, might I ask?

 

I may go back to casting if my duplicating efforts do not work out. But my first efforts at casting left an annoying seam down the length, and also an incomplete pour at the top. The incomplete pour might be solved by building a larger top funnel giving greater weight to the pour. But as best as I tried to smooth the clay up to the master, some of the rubber mould material still found enough imperfections at the junction of the clay and the master to produce a seam in the final product. Still more skills for me to learn with casting!

 

 

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

1 hour ago, SJSoane said:

Are you using a duplicator, or cutting and then regularly checking length and diameter against a template?

 

None of the above. The first times I used a duplicator for Unimat.

Now I use a taper attachment, a guide to set a precise angle for the taper.

I work by steps which is at the end a faster method but collets are required to reposition blanks more precisely

Example first deck cannons, same step for each ones, then second step for each one and so on

Edited November 11, 2018 by Gaetan Bordeleau

[EdT]

Mark, I like the idea of decking under the guns - this will also help with hanging the tackles and breeching realistically.  I turned the 100+ guns on my Victory using the Unimate with the headstock rotated slightly for the tapers.  I did not have a duplicator - and still do not - but relied on a set of adjustment increments to duplicate each barrel profile with shaped cutters for each end of the barrel.  I did each step on all the barrels of one size gun with the business end of the barrel chucked and without a tailstock center - starting with the shaped pommel, then the tapers, then the barrel rings, etc.  Drilled the barrels after cutting off the stub.  A very manual approach, but worked well.  Care is needed to center the barrel bores.  Here's a description in one of the Victory posts.

 

 

ps. I see Gaetan used much the same method I did, but from the other end - probably better that way.  But either way the work goes quickly once the process is set.

 

Ed

Edited November 11, 2018 by EdT

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Ed is right we use the same method, with some variants;  he gets the taper from the head, I get it by an attachment, I turn from the opposite end because it is easier to center the hole for the guns balls. 

The most important is that it is made by steps, specializing in one part at the time.

[michael mott]

Mark it is interesting that we end up in some areas of our model work trying to replicate the same methods in general terms vis a vis the woodwork and framing albeit substituting fine grain woods, and then when it comes to the elements that were cast in real life we change and struggle with keeping them all the same using a machining process. I wonder if what Druxey did was actually faster in the long run and more closely representing the original design and possibly also less expensive.

I am not being critical, just an observation. I often fine myself sort of locked into trying to make the next item the same way rather than changing to a different method sort of an automatic pilot mindset.

Lovely work on the ship, by the way.

 

Michael

[druxey]

Depending on how nicely the RTV mold is 'clamped' by the outer plaster one, the seam should be minimal. The slight seam, if there is one, is easily filed off. The finish used was a chemical one: Jax Pewter Black. Incidentally, the carronade pattern shown was the earliest one of 1782 that lacked the muzzle cup or extension seen on later ones.

 

Another consideration is providing air vent passages in the mold to allow a complete 'fill'. Did you have such channels when you attempted to cast?