HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[SJSoane]

Looking at the images of the Bellona stern again, I see that there is a square transom at the upper deck level, which has to be cut to leave room for the rudder head.

 

Looking at the images pointed out to me by druxey, there are a number of 74s with curved beams around the rudder head. So here is another interpretation, with a curved joining piece fayed to the fore side of the two halves of the square transom that I see in the Bellona photos.

 

I am also showing a smaller transom to serve as a landing for the decking just fore of the vertical pieces.

 

I'll try to build it....

 

Mark

 

[druxey]

Your latest sketch looks pretty convincing to me, Mark. Although I'd label 'upper deck transom' the last beam aft. The transom itself is aft of that, across the counter timbers. Either make the beam as you've drawn it, or make it a single curved one.

[SJSoane]

 

Thank you, druxey, that makes sense to label the last beam aft the transom. In my photos of the Bellona stern, the next one forward avoiding the rudder head clearly sits down on the counter timbers and is cut with an exposed rectangular end, so I'll go with the curved beam fayed onto the fore face.

 

The more I play detective on these complex constructions, the more impressed I am with the shipwright's art 250 years ago. But this drawing does look eerily like a space ship out of star wars....

 

Thanks again for your erudite help and good eye for detail.

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark

 

 Your sketches look good sir as your sketches always do but from the research on this part there are a couple of items that seems to be questionable. One would be the upper deck transom. From looking at plans and the contracts it states that it was ten inches deep, scored and bolted to the counter timber. As far as a rabbet for the deck planking here, plans show that the planking run's all the way back to the outside edge of the stern counter timber's, butting up against the lower counter moulding. The only deck transom that is mentioning as have a rabbet on its forward edge is the round house. It does seem that if the other transoms had one it would have been mention in the contracts. Why only mention the one and not that others and at the same time only show the round house transom on the plans as the only one having one.

 

  The other item is the helm port transom.  Going by what the contracts say about this item is that it is to be 10 inches deep, scored and bolted through the counter timbers, to give it no more cast than necessary to give room for the tiller (which is to have 3 inches play above and below, between the deck and helm port transom) and stern ports. It also goes on to say that the cast part of the transom, were the wood is apt to spring, to have two small bolts drove down from the upper side, and clenched on the under side as close as may be to the middle part on which the tiller traveses. This tells me that there was one piece that was bolted down to the top of the stern post and then was cast up to make up the top of the gun ports. My way of looking is which one would give you more strength. When looking at the photo of the Bellona stern you can make out the cast part of the helm port transom sitting on top of the stern post. Just more to think about Mark, but am sure which every one will look as good as the rest of her.

Gary

Edited February 17, 2014 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

 

HI Gary,

 

Thanks, this is very helpful. I have sent you a PM with some additional information that show some of the unexpected complexities I am trying to resolve with this drawing. Maybe we can review the contract information with the info I have sent you.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[druxey]

This gets more interesting, gentlemen.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark.

 

 I took a look at the photo's sir and the one that show's the side of the stern post, the helm port transom, does run in to the side of the stern post but isn't the way it was done in full size as far as I know, from the plans that I have seen. The stern post would have been notched out for the transom to fit on top of it at a height of 3 inches below the tiller I believe. I think that the builder of the model didn't notched out the post and just cut the transom to fit on either side of the post. This is one of those items that is a real bear, to fit in one piece. Another item that isn't shown in its proper shape is the gun deck transom which usually has a round up to it and other then the wing transom the rest of the filling transom are all flat  across the top.

 

 As far as the upper deck transom I do believe that on the Bellona model, it does show it shaped right, with the center cut out to fit a round the rudder.  If you did go with the forward beam you would still need a upper deck transom for the end's of the planks to land on. Do wish we had some photo's showing what those items looked like on the inside of that model, which would be a big help in figuring out their shape. Do think the shape in your drawing is close to what probably was used. Some thing that does help on the helm port transom and figure out its height in the middle is that the standard(knee) that fitted on to the front of the stern post, the upper arm top height was also the upper part of the  top of the helm port transom. Since your builder her like the model then fitting the helm port to the side of the stern post would be well in line, that and building the deck transom  as you have it drawn, fitted to the counter timbers. .

 

Gary

Edited February 17, 2014 by garyshipwright

[EdT]

Good discussion.  I can't offer much help, I'm afraid.  I went through similar issues with Naiad - different ship, different arrangement.  The only way I could see of framing the helm port was with wood chocks between the transoms cut with the rudder hole.  Not much help in this case, but I did have two other observations.

 

From the contracts I have read, the only transom with a rabbet was the one on the exposed deck.  I believe the purpose of this was to enable a caulking joint at the ends of the deck planks.  This would not be necessary on lower decks.

 

Setting the deck and seat transoms after installing the counter timbers was perhaps the most difficult task in building Naiad.  I found it very difficult to cut scores that matched the inward and aft slanted lines of the tmbers.  I suspect that in practice the transoms were installed first.  String lines could then be used to mark the lines of the counter timbers on the transoms for scoring.  I believe if I were doing this again I would use that approach.

 

Anyway, these are just a couple of related thoughts.  I love your thoughtful, thorough and precise approach, Mark - and where would we be without Gary's detailed research?

 

Ed

Edited February 17, 2014 by EdT

[SJSoane]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks, druxey, Gary and Ed. It is so helpful to have your expertise and critical eye looking at these reconstructions. This website supports the most remarkable community of learners. This shared detective work is almost as fun as the actual construction...

 

So, here is the latest reconstruction in light of recent insights from all of you.

 

The biggest change is information that there was likely no rabbet into a transom for the upper deck planking. To give the planking some landing, I have shown a "nailer" fayed to the fore side of the lower counter moulding. Some of the planks are going to run right into the fore side of the vertical timbers and vanish down to no thickness at the sternmost end, but it is what it is.

 

I have also shown chocks like the ones Ed shows in his book, because the lower counter planking will need something to land on at the edge of the rudder port. There may be chocks further down, but I can't visualize that yet.

 

And I am showing a rabbet where the helm port transom intersects with the top of the stern post. I don't know how I am going to cut that rabbet in the post at this point, but we'll see. Gary, do you think this is the way they likely intersected?

 

Thanks again for your outstanding help.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark

 Good drawing sir but I believe that the helm port transom would have intersected on the forward part of the stern post. Other then that sir I would say your drawing is right on.  Not one of my better views of the stern Mark but should give you at least ideal's about how I approach this on my  stern. Since these photo's, I didn't like my helm port transom and have taken it out. At the same time a few more items may come out and be replaced also. Guess items do have a way of coming back to haunt you untill you just have to change them out. Gary

Edited February 17, 2014 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

 

Hi Gary,

 

You are right; when I look at the Bellona photo again, the aft face of the helm port transom is forward of the aft face of the stern post. But the aft face seems to intersect at a line just about the same as the rabbet in the stern post, and that would have the transom hitting the center of stern post which could provide a bridle joint between the two. I am having trouble getting the helm port transom beyond the canted center part to intersect the lower counter timbers in this new position, and I will send a drawing later to show this.

 

But for now, do you have the specifications of the vertical counter timbers, in particular the fore and aft width where they sit on the wing transom, and at the lower counter knuckle? I may be working with the wrong dimensions, which would cause my transom in the new correct position not to intersect the vertical timbers. The dimensions I got from Steel don't seem to make things line up.

 

Mark

[druxey]

I still think that the helm port transom would only tenon into the sides of the stern post. Is there any argument against that point?

 

And here's another heretical possibility: was there a helm port transom at all in this ship's configuration? Or are there simply chocks to frame in the helm port? I suggest this as the wing transom is so close to the helm port and upper deck transoms I can't see that it would add much to the overall structural strength. In Gary's model, the transom at least has the function of forming the upper border to the chase ports.

 

I await your brickbats, gentlemen.

Edited February 17, 2014 by druxey

[SJSoane]

Hi everyone,

 

It is getting more interesting. I have attached a drawing based on the NMM photo of the 1760 Bellona model, highlighting where the transoms appear to be. It looks to me like the one I have labeled helm port transom does sit down on the vertical counter timbers, and then drops down to the side of the stern post. So it definitely is not on top of the post, or there would be no room for the tiller. But Gary is right that it is not aligned with the aft side of the stern post as I had originally drawn it. It appears to line up a little abaft of the rabbet in the stern post, which, if it is 10-12 inches thick, would put it right in the middle of the stern post. It either has a bridle joint, or the two halves tenon into the side of the post. Also note that the heads of the gun ports are a little lower than the helm port transom.

 

More difficult is that when I draw the helm port in this new more forward location on the stern post, the two sides are now too high to sit on the vertical counter timbers. I have got to keep playing with this in section, before everything lines up to look like the photo of the original model...

 

Best wishes,

 

Mar

 

[garyshipwright]

Nice drawing Mark. You could also go and look at the plans J2683 Goliath which has a stern view showing the shape of the HPT(Helm port transom), also the Vengeance of 1771, J3250, Ramilies of 1785, J3209 and Bedford 1775, J3365. Gary

[SJSoane]

 

Hey Gary, I think I see the solution to my problem in your model. The helm port transom when it is cast down has also moved forward. That means I can align with the stern post at its lower level, and still have it sit down on the vertical timbers if it moves back a bit on the sides. I'll try to do a drawing later....

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Mark one of those plans do show that the helm port transom could be moved forward but am not sure what plan it was.  Went and took a look and its the Vengeance, J3250. Believe that the standard has been notched  so the transom will fit.  Mark do believe you mention that the transom is 10 inches wide. It should be 10 inches deep, accorden to the contract. Steel also says that its post to be 10 inches deep but gives the moulded on the  fore and aft as broad as may be had- 1 foot 8 inches and broad upon the clamp 1 foot 4 inches

 

Gary

Edited February 18, 2014 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

Hi everyone,

 

A quick update on the Bellona's stern. I don't get much time in the shop these days, so it is going very slowly.

 

Fitting the counter timbers is trickier than I ever would have imagined. The counters round back and up, and the vertical timbers taper to point some distance above the hull. But not all taper. The ones on either side of the stern post are vertical; and the ones on the outboard side of the gunports are vertical alongside the gunport and then crank to align with the taper of the others above the gunport. I have shown these cranked timbers in the first photo.

 

Everything is loosely fitted right now, and not yet sanded to final fairing. I haven't yet figured out the rudder port shape, so it is just a slab sitting in the place where chocks will have to go, with a penciled in shape of the port. I may build the rudder next to see what the shape of the port will be.

 

It is pretty thin construction here. I can see why a broadside raking the stern would devastate the decks.

 

Good thing I am not in a hurry, and don't have any raking broadsides coming my way yet...

 

Mark

 

 

 

[gjdale]

It may be challenging Mark, but you seem to be doing your customary excellent work. Looks pretty darn good from here.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark. You do seem to be well on your way to having a outstanding and beautiful stern and walk sir. It does take awhile to work this out and am sure once you do it will be a good lesson for every one in the process of building the ships stern. Gary

[druxey]

Look on the bright side, Mark: once you've solved all the problems associated with making and setting the counter timbers, you'll be able to do this in a fraction of the time on your next model! It looks as if you are well on your way now. She's looking great. And three cheers for Alvin's assistance.

[Trussben]

Wow, the discussion here is incredible?

I hope I can learn 1/10 about it with my Pegasus, help me out guys!

 

Ben

[SJSoane]

 

Thank you, Grant, Gary, druxey and Ben. It feels like a team effort, with all of the help everyone has given on this. Ben, you can count on help with your Pegasus!

 

Mark

[Pirate adam]

This is consistently one of the most confusing parts of these ships no matter how many pictures or drawings I see. The work that you guys have done putting this together is outstanding and incredibly helpful to all that follow.

 

Adam

[Sailor1234567890]

Looking forward to more progress on this ship. Beautiful work.

[DORIS]

Just excellent, Mark! That is a great inspiration and admirable sense for realism. I love your work on wooden frame.
Kind regards
Doris

[SJSoane]

 

Thank you Adam, Sailor and Doris, for your kind comments. This really does turn out to be the most challenging part of the build so far, keeping track of so many parts all having to align to different angles and curves in three dimensions. I thought I had a good ability to visualize in 3 dimensions and to understand 2 dimensional drawings that represent 3 dimensions; but this stern goes entirely beyond my skill to visualize it. I had to start building to understand the interrelationship of the parts in 3 dimensions. All part of the fun!

 

And Doris, I appreciate your comment about wooden frame. Your build in card continues to amaze me; I am sure you have the more difficult material to work in, and you do it so exceptionally well.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

 

Hi everyone,

 

Quick update. I roughed in the helm port, which will be refined in size once I have a rudder to check against it. Getting this port shaped meant I could finally fit the center counter timber, which mortised into it. I don't know if this is the right joint here, but it made sense when I looked at it all. All pieces are now shaped and fitted. Time to cut the dovetails at the tops of the counter timbers, and fit the quarterdeck transom....

 

Mark

[druxey]

Very neatly done, Mark. It's always a treat to look in on your progress. 

[mtaylor]

Nicely done on another tricky area.  

[mtaylor]

Nicely done on another tricky area.