USS Tennessee 1869 by Keith Black - scale 1:120 - Wood Hull Screw Frigate - ex Madawaska 1865

[FriedClams]

Nifty little lantern, Keith - and a great detail. A nice visual and unexpected surprise for the viewer.

 

Gary

 

 

[mbp521]

I think you nailed it Keith! Well done. 
 

-Brian 

[Keith Black]

 As usual, I failed to give a visual size reference in the original post, my apologies. 

 

[wefalck]

Pat, I think there was a sort of L-shaped carrier for the lamp, as Keith tried to reproduce in his first try. That's how interpret my photograph of the RELIANT. The carrier would have had two sheet-metal fingers over which sheet-metal loops at the back of the lamp would slide. During day-time the lamps would be taken down and stored.

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Keith, I hope you don't mind me hijacking a little longer?

 

Bob, Eberhard.  Do you think a variation/version of the masthead lantern may have had a detachable backplate to which the lantern proper could be attached?  The backplate would have the guides and having it detachable would negate the need to remove the guide wires / wire jackstays when needing to service the lamp.  Although some guidance suggests the lanterns were stowed, refilled and trimmed daily, what would preclude the lanterns being filled and trimmed on-deck?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Exactly so. Eberhard's photo of the tug at the NMM shows clearly how it was done with the lantern hung on a flat back plate which actually carries the jackstay rings. Other lanterns have the jackstay rings attached the lamp itself which would be less convenient than leaving the jackstays permanently rigged and slipping the lantern on and off a carrier plate. It should be remembered, however, that the jackstay and running light halyard arrangement might be a bit messy on a sailing ship with all the attendant rigging already running down to the base of the mast and for this reason steam powered vessels carrying auxiliary sails (or sailing vessels with auxiliary steam power) might opt for the "portable" rig whcih was struck down when not in use . The picture below, showing what appears to be more permanent jackline and bracket arrangement is on a steam tug which would not be bothered by additional rigging on and about the mast. Indeed, the backplate seems a bit crudely made and it's possible it was fabricated by the tug's bosun to achieve the convenience it affords in servicing and lighting.

 

 

 

All the lanterns of this era were hung in the same fashion.... or at least all I've ever seen. The back of the lantern has a bent flat metal strap which slides over a "tongue" positioned as may be convenient, either on a flat plate as shown above, or on a light board port and starboard, or on a stern transom or rail as shown in another of Eberhard's photos below. (Interestingly, the stern light shown was originally an oil lamp; as indicated by the permanently mounted "tongue" and strap on the lantern, but the lantern has been electrified as seen by the power cord running into the back of the lantern next to the standing "tongue" bracket.

 

 

In the photo below, a "tongue," rather than a strap, is attached to the back of this port running light to the right of the red curved glass inside the body of the lamp. (The back of the lamp body is a right angle so it will fit neatly into the corner of the light board. This tongue would slide into a strap permanently attached to the light board in order to "hang" the lamp on the board. 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Keith Black said:

to insure the no line came in close contact with a hot lantern.  

Actually, these lanterns don't really get hot. Warm, maybe, but not hot. The flame isn't much more than an inch wide at the burner and forms an equilateral triangle with its sides. A larger flame would only create a lot of black smoke and soot.  Out in the sea air in even a light breeze, the lamp body doesn't have much of a chance to heat up.

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 As usual, I failed to give a visual size reference in the original post, my apologies. 

 

Very nice work at that scale!

 

[wefalck]

Actually, I am not so sure about that. As a youngster I had petroleum storm-lamp and that got quite hot in places, the glass and the funnel for instance.

[Keith Black]

40 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

Actually, these lanterns don't really get hot. Warm, maybe, but not hot.

 

I was transferring my experience with kerosene lamps with glass chimneys and Coleman lanterns to ship's lanterns with which I have no experience. My apologies for being wrong to do so.  

 

 Okay, the middle eyes are there for the halyard adding another line of stability to keep lines and lantern from twisting. 

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 

I was transferring my experience with kerosene lamps with glass chimneys and Coleman lanterns to ship's lanterns with which I have no experience. My apologies for being wrong to do so.  

 

 Okay, the middle eyes are there for the halyard adding another line of stability to keep lines and lantern from twisting. 

It appears to be a simple mechanism.  Two guide ropes and a single halyard.  From the images of the actual lamp...there are no downhauls....just a halyard to raise the lamp.  The weight of the lamp will easily bring it back down the guide ropes.  And since the halyard is inserted back behind the lamp chimney to the metal *saddle*or chair.....the halyard rope will not be in danger of heating.

 

Your model is well executed....cept for the downhaul(which could be problematic if damaged by the chimney heat.

My 5 cents.

 

Great detail to your model...by the way.

 

Rob

Edited April 21, 2023 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

Keith.....Upon reading my response....I didn't mean to say, *Cept for*..to imply any error on your part....but that if you used a single line from deck level up to the single block, supporting the lamp and back down through the block to the lamp saddle/chair.  You could eliminate that second downhaul line.  The halyard line could be placed just aft of the lamp elevation axis....keeping it far away from the hot lamp chimney.

 

That is what I meant.

 

Rob

 

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

It appears to be a simple mechanism.  Two guide ropes and a single halyard.  From the images of the actual lamp...there are no downhauls....just a halyard to raise the lamp.  The weight of the lamp will easily bring it back down the guide ropes.

 Rob, thank you for the compliment. I considered gravity as the only means for the lantern's trip back to the deck but then I thought of those winter nights when the block and lines would have iced, maybe even froze and would have required a pull from a downhaul line to bring the lantern back down to the deck.

 

 If you note in Eberhard's first photo in post #787, at the base of the carrier there is an extended plate with a hole where a clevis would attach for the downhaul.......me thinks. 

[clearway]

the lamp discussion is nearly as involved as the great "ice bridge/ azimuth compass" debate on my Terror log Keith- i think you are on the right path with the lantern hoist/ downhaul. On their FD10 yawl billings have a lantern that runs up to a bracket on the mast doubling with an eyebolt on the base of the lantern for the down haul 

 

Keith

[BANYAN]

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.  OK it seems the lamp was fitted to a carrier which slid up and down.  The rigging of the halliard/downhaul still seems in contention.  Rob, I feel the weight alone may not have been sufficient to lower the assembly, especially in heavy spray conditions whereby the guides/jackstays may have become encrusted, or if there were high relative winds? This is one of the reasons that some lighter spars such as gaffs etc are fitted with downhauls. 

 

I am not decided on this, but my feeling would be a sort of signal flag halliard whereby one end is connected to the upper lug of the carrier/back plate, rove through a small block on the mast/under the foretop, down to deck, through another small block on deck, then up and shackled to a bottom lug of the plate.  the length would be sufficient to allow sufficient slack for it to be belayed to a pin or cleat and forming a sort of continuous loop?

 

Further thoughts/discussion most welcomed.  This has been an enjoyable discussion, and sorry again to take up so much of your log with it Keith.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[KeithAug]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:40 AM, Keith Black said:

Once again, thank you to all who made this lantern project possible.

Ah! Cangarda has got one! I now feel I can join the group of enthusiasts.

[Keith Black]

25 minutes ago, KeithAug said:

Cangarda has got one! I now feel I can join the group of enthusiasts.

 

 Hip, Hip! That's way cool. I'll PM you the secret handshake. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Keith Black

[Bob Cleek]

33 minutes ago, KeithAug said:

Ah! Cangarda has got one! I now feel I can join the group of enthusiasts.

She's hanging an anchor light in the above picture, but in the below much earlier picture she appears to be carrying a steaming light on the foremast. I presume this was a permanently mounted electric light. Note that on the flying bridge she is carrying a large electric spotlight.

 

[KeithAug]

3 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

She's hanging an anchor light in the above picture,

Spoil sport, I am deflated.

[rwiederrich]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:55 AM, Keith Black said:

 Rob, thank you for the compliment. I considered gravity as the only means for the lantern's trip back to the deck but then I thought of those winter nights when the block and lines would have iced, maybe even froze and would have required a pull from a downhaul line to bring the lantern back down to the deck.

 

 If you note in Eberhard's first photo in post #787, at the base of the carrier there is an extended plate with a hole where a clevis would attach for the downhaul.......me thinks. 

Indeed, I saw that metal eye……..and probably it was for a down haul…….but I was making my reference from the block…….by looking at your modeled representation, it appears there are several lines coming from the block or some other origin.  Not just the two guide ropes.

Your pint in a valid one……..a foul at the halyard, would require intervention with some form of a downhaul.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, KeithAug said:

Ah! Cangarda has got one! I now feel I can join the group of enthusiasts.

That is not hung as the example you made or the one in the B/W images.

 

Seams simply hung from a line that cane raised or lowered.     Interesting.

 

Rob

[Keith Black]

 Thank you to all who joined in on the lantern discussion and thank you to all for the compliments and the likes.

 

 Early on when I was trying to determine what the arrow was pointing to in the below photo, forward of the 60 pound Parrott  

 

 I assumed it was bitts and modeled same. Only after Eberhard's keen observation of the canvas/sailcloth ventilator did the light come on and I realized that what I had imagined as bitts was in fact an access hatch.

 

 After many efforts (I think this is access hatch 9.0) I finally came up with the below, a canvas covered access. The canvas is rolled on the forward edge when opened. I tried creating a sense of depth as best I could in a 0.1 inches of space. When the ventilator is added very little of the inside access will be seen. The inside dimensions are 0.3 x 0.45 inches, the ventilator's finished diameter will be 0.3 inches representing three feet in scale. Only after rigging is complete will I model the ventilator but after giving it considerable thought over the past three weeks I confident I'll be able to do so successfully.

 

 I think the access was only open when the Parrott required powder and shell or when the canvas/sailcloth ventilator was deployed. The forecastle was ladder accessible to and from the main deck.

 

 I went through my library of photos after Eberhard mentioned the rarity of photos showing canvas/sailcloth ventilators. The below photo is the Tennessee, number's 1, 3 and 4 are obvious but 2 is a bit strange?

 

The above photo enhanced as best I could. 

 

 This image of the Tennessee seems to show a ventilator hanging (drying?) on the starboard side of the foremast. 

 

 

 This is not the Tennessee but I think it is a US screw frigate. This image shows six canvas/sailcloth ventilators deployed.

 

 The above photo enhanced as best I could.

 

 I've chased enough rabbits, time to get rigging productive! Thank you to all for following along........Keith

Edited May 11, 2023 by Keith Black

[Glen McGuire]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

I tried creating a sense of depth as best I could in a 0.1 inches of space.

You did way more than try, Keith.  Looks very real.  Excellent job.

[mbp521]

You might have a bad day if you happen to pop your head out of that hatch when they were firing the Parrot. 😁

 

-Brian

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, mbp521 said:

You might have a bad day if you happen to pop your head out of that hatch when they were firing the Parrot.

 Brian, if the gun crew is firing the Parrott in the stowed position it is truly a bad day for the entire ship's crew because the gun crew has mutinied! 😀 

[Keith Black]

3 hours ago, Glen McGuire said:

You did way more than try, Keith.  Looks very real.  Excellent job.

 Thank you, Glen. 

[FriedClams]

Nice update on the hatch and ventilators, Keith.  I hate to display my ignorance in such an obvious way, but what was the purpose of using canvas ventilators over cowled metal ones?  Was it to elevate the intake above smoke from the guns? 

 

Gary

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, FriedClams said:

Nice update on the hatch and ventilators, Keith.  I hate to display my ignorance in such an obvious way, but what was the purpose of using canvas ventilators over cowled metal ones?  Was it to elevate the intake above smoke from the guns? 

 

 Thank you for the compliment, Gary.

 

 Metal ventilators were fine when the ship was underway but when the ship was docked or at anchor not enough fresh/cool air was being introduced into the ship so they deployed the canvas/sailcloth ventilators in opened hatches and companionways to compensate. I would think that during hot weather the canvas/sailcloth ventilators would have been a necessity. 

[FriedClams]

Thanks Keith, that makes perfect sense.

 

Gary

[KeithAug]

Keith - your interpretation of photos is impressive. I think my eyes need an overhaul.

[Keith Black]

3 hours ago, KeithAug said:

Keith - your interpretation of photos is impressive. I think my eyes need an overhaul.

 Keith, it's not so much my eyes, it has more to do with being able to view photos on our iMac 27.