Mosquito B Mk IV - FINISHED - Revell - My next non-ship project

[Egilman]

22 minutes ago, Old Collingwood said:

Truly a lesson for future builds  - painting with laquars  keep it just laquars, painting with Acrylics  keep it Just Acrylics , I never use Enamels anymore.

 

OC.

Yep, I would give a light sand down of the affected areas and repaint.... 

 

Like I said, the decals will take care of themselves.....

 

It's too damned pretty not to finish it....

Edited April 28, 2020 by Egilman

[Old Collingwood]

11 minutes ago, Egilman said:

Yep, I would give a light sand down of the affected areas and repaint.... 

 

Like I said, the decals will take care of themselves.....

 

It's too damned pretty not to finish it....

Thank you EG,   I will have a go latter today.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

Just a small update  -  I was able to pull the (now)  damaged  decals off  using masking tape,  I was lucky  it didn't pull any layers of paint off  underneath,  so I should now have a fairly good surface  (after a light wet n dry)  to  re paint.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

Painting wise  - what do you guys think is best  - paint the camo  first  by letting a small amount of over spray  then mask up  and  do the Black   meaning just the one demarcation line needed.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

That's how I would do it, others might have a better way though....

[Old Collingwood]

1 minute ago, Egilman said:

That's how I would do it, others might have a better way though....

Thanks mate,   reasurance  knowing you would do it that way, kind of a busy head at the moment   working it out.

 

OC.

[lmagna]

If you are going to strip it down anyway OC why not take it all the way and try a bottle of Super Clean like EG described in his car build and take it down to the plastic?

 https://www.walmart.com/ip/SuperClean-Tough-Task-Cleaner-Degreaser-1-gal/23752162?selected=true

 

Might be better to start from the beginning rather than go halfway. 

 

Sorry this happened to you it was going so nicely.

[cog]

Can you get your hands on Mr Paint cleaner? It removes even enamels. That might just be the solution for the stripping, or as Lou suggested. I wouldn't just sand lightly and spray, or hand paint for that matter. It might become looking rather clumsy. Every layer you add with a brush is quite thick, compared to airbrush or rattle can.

 

Maybe you can have decals printed. This is the sheet. Make certain it's at the right scale when you have it printed on decal paper. If you can't give me the measurements of the sheet or from a large decal and I see what I can do for you. You might even try to contact Revell ... it's a German company, so close enough to home

 

So sorry this happened to you. Especially since it really went so well, and it was looking so marvelous

[Edwardkenway]

Sorry this happened OC. 

If it's any consolation I know you will be able to get over it somehow. 

[Old Collingwood]

11 hours ago, lmagna said:

If you are going to strip it down anyway OC why not take it all the way and try a bottle of Super Clean like EG described in his car build and take it down to the plastic?

 https://www.walmart.com/ip/SuperClean-Tough-Task-Cleaner-Degreaser-1-gal/23752162?selected=true

 

Might be better to start from the beginning rather than go halfway. 

 

Sorry this happened to you it was going so nicely.

Thanks Lou,    the restoration  begins .......

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

8 hours ago, cog said:

Can you get your hands on Mr Paint cleaner? It removes even enamels. That might just be the solution for the stripping, or as Lou suggested. I wouldn't just sand lightly and spray, or hand paint for that matter. It might become looking rather clumsy. Every layer you add with a brush is quite thick, compared to airbrush or rattle can.

 

Maybe you can have decals printed. This is the sheet. Make certain it's at the right scale when you have it printed on decal paper. If you can't give me the measurements of the sheet or from a large decal and I see what I can do for you. You might even try to contact Revell ... it's a German company, so close enough to home

 

So sorry this happened to you. Especially since it really went so well, and it was looking so marvelous

Thank you so much  for checking that out, like I said to Lou  - the restoration is in place,   I will explain more  lower......

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

8 hours ago, Edwardkenway said:

Sorry this happened OC. 

If it's any consolation I know you will be able to get over it somehow. 

Thank you Edward,   I think I have it in hand, read  lower.......

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

So  after  the disaster,   the process  to try to turn it around  started  last night  by me trying the old trick  of using masking tape to pull the damaged decals off,   several  tries  and to my amazement the worst culprits came away without  damaging the paint work underneath.

 

So today  after a good sleep,  I got some fine wet and dry  and soapy warm water, and proceded to work on the areas affected,  this worked out quite well  as the tamiya laquar layers that had been sprayed on with the rattle cans, had actually  formed quite a hard layer  - so I carried on.

When I was happy with the finish  the next stage was to mask off and isolate  (thas a good word these days)  the front section as that was not affected, so with the aid of a plastic bag and tape  - it did the job.

 

So this is the fuslage  ready to be masked up  for the camo colours.

 

OC.

[Old Collingwood]

I put the fuselage aside  and tuned my attention to the Black  paint underneath both stabs  and  main wing,   this was straight forward as they had already been primed,  I decided to hand paint these  same as I hand painted the other wing,   I masked up a few areas  on the wing near the flaps  - then painted away.

I  have the stabs done  and part of the main wing - I will  finish the rest when the paint is dry and hardened.

 

OC.

[Canute]

OC, looks like a great save. Well done.

[Old Collingwood]

4 minutes ago, Canute said:

OC, looks like a great save. Well done.

Thanks Ken,   its a clear canvas again ready for masking and spraying.

 

OC.

[Landlubber Mike]

OC, I have to say when I saw the email showing build log updates I follow and saw your posts from yesterday, my heart sank!  Glad that you were able to recover though!  It's looking like you just took a time machine a few days and are back to where you were.

 

To replace your decals, I bet contacting Revell is a good place to start.  Your build log is fantastic and is good free advertising for them.  If they aren't able to help, then I bet you can pick up third party decals for the kit.  Some you can find here:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-04555-mosquito-b-mkiv--111441

 

Or, I'm sure you know this, but they sell paint masks that will allow you to paint the markings, rather than use decals.  That could be an option?

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/montex-mm48306-dh-98-mosquito-b-mkiv--198970

 

 

So, I'm by no means an expert on this, but I'm guessing that Egilman is correct on what happened with the hair dryer and curing.  As a side hobby I sometimes turn pens, and typically add a CA finish when I use wooden blanks.  Sometimes I will get a crazing like that.  I've found that happens when I try using an older bottle of CA, but along with humidity, I've had issues pop up with some blanks when I used accelerator (either too much, too late after the CA was applied - i.e., there is a problem with the curing).  CA is certainly different than applying a clear coat, but when I saw your pictures, I immediately thought of the same issues I had with adding CA finishes.

 

I hate to dredge up bad memories, but can you spell out the steps you used?  It sounds like you applied Tamiya rattle can lacquer primers and paints.  Did you seal right after painting?  Then you applied the decals with setting solution (microset?), and then tried to gloss coat with a Tamiya lacquer by hand?  The reason I ask is that I'm working on two 1/72 planes at the moment.  The steps I took were (1) Mr. Color primer (lacquer), (2) for paints, I used mostly Vallejo (acrylic), though I used a Tamiya lacquer spray can for some parts (I made a big mistake in buying the Polycarbonate PS line which is for RC models that use polycarbonate), (3) added a clear coat of Future to seal the paint, (4) added decals using Microset and Microsol, and (5) sealed the decals with another coat of Future so I can begin weathering (I'm going to play with washes, powders, and oil paints I think).  

 

Everything has worked pretty well for me.  The only issue I had is when I accidentally got a bit of acrylic paint on the section I painted with the Polycarbonate paint.  When I went to touch up that area by hand brushing the Polycarbonate paint to cover the acrylic, it ended up turning the acrylic wet and sorta mixed with it so I had to wipe it and now have some small smears (I guess an early start to the weathering process for me).  Not sure if the PS paints are lacquer, but I now know that I can't use that PS paint on top of acrylic.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd share as I've read different views on what paints can be used with other paints and when.  It's all been very confusing to say the least.  I very much prefer the ease of using Vallejo acrylics, but Tamiya's lacquer colors just seem a lot more lively and better for certain types of models.

 

All that being said, hang in there man - you took a step or two back and learned something, but all is not lost.  Your Mosquito looks fantastic!

 

 

[Old Collingwood]

Thank you kindly Mike,    I am fully relating to that,   I think that is what happened  a combination of what EG said and  yourself  -  the  laquar layer  reacted  (made worst by heat)  with the  Acrylic  Tamiya  top coat semi gloss.

 

What I will do in future  - Not mix  laquar with  Acrylic,   and to finish my mossie off  -  use the two colour  laquar  tamiya rattle sprays,   sort out some decs  - put them down again using my  micro set and sol,  then after  about a  week  or so  use the tamiya  laquar  flat coat  but somehow try not to spray it  to thick  (not that easy with rattle cans).

 

OC.

[Landlubber Mike]

I should have mentioned that I've painted Vallejo acrylics on top of the Mr. Color lacquer primer and Tamiya lacquer paints no problems.  Only problem I've had is when I used that Polycarbonate paint on top of acrylics - that caused the acrylic to turn runny.

 

One thing to note too is that there are varying opinions on how long to let something dry and especially cure before adding a different layer on top.  Most seem to suggest waiting at least overnight, if not 24 hours, to be on the safer side.

[Old Collingwood]

5 minutes ago, Landlubber Mike said:

I should have mentioned that I've painted Vallejo acrylics on top of the Mr. Color lacquer primer and Tamiya lacquer paints no problems.  Only problem I've had is when I used that Polycarbonate paint on top of acrylics - that caused the acrylic to turn runny.

 

One thing to note too is that there are varying opinions on how long to let something dry and especially cure before adding a different layer on top.  Most seem to suggest waiting at least overnight, if not 24 hours, to be on the safer side.

Thanks Mike, certainly lessons learned.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

29 minutes ago, Old Collingwood said:

I've painted Vallejo acrylics on top of the Mr. Color lacquer primer and Tamiya lacquer paints no problems

Acrylics on top of lacquer primer and lacquer paints is a different beast altogether. The lacquer primers and paints have a lot more filling compounds/tint carriers and thinner than does clear overcoats which contains a lot more real lacquer. Especially the gloss lacquers...  Generally I allow 24 hours for enamels and lacquers to dry, (very thin coats) and usually in the case of lacquer, I spray a section on my overspray table cover so I can test the dryness with a finger before I touch the part particularly for all gloss and clear products. If when you touch it with a finger and it feels sticky, it is still curing.... Sometimes, in the case of ultra smooth glossy heavy lacquer it can take as much as a week to fully cure.... I've read on other forums that sometimes heavy lacquers like alclad black base for chrome, has never fully cured..... (probably not thinned enough)

 

The issue is that the lacquer has to have a way to completely degas, (which it eventually will) and if you cover it while it is degassing it will fog the finish, heat accelerates the process..... so it dries the acrylic and forces the lacquer to degas faster at the same time... giving you what you saw....

 

Straight, fully cured lacquer is so tough that it is next to impossible to sand, (almost like fiberglass resins) and takes polishing very very well because it is so hard.... Paints and primers cannot function correctly if they were that hard.

 

Best practice with high gloss lacquer finishes, leave it alone for however long it takes and paint/spray a test spot for checking it's cure state..... In modeling, if it hasn't cured in 72 hours, you probably need to strip and redo it, more than likely it is an improperly mixed, bad batch of lacquer....

 

EG

Edited April 28, 2020 by Egilman

[Old Collingwood]

Thanks  EG,     this is what  I have / will use  (minus the Acrylic  tin top coat that I now will not touch with a barge pole)  - 

First  (already down)   then camo colours,   then  the Black,   followed by  the Flat  top coat  All tamiya  Laquar sprays.

 

OC.

[Roger Pellett]

A frustrating thing about paints today and some glues is understanding enough about their chemistry to understand how they work.  This is ancient history but lacquer used to be a plastic dissolved in acetone.  It dried when the acetone evaporated leaving the plastic on the surface so it didn’t really cure like an enamel paint and could be easily wiped off with acetone on a rag.  I have no idea if modern day lacquers behave the same way.

 

Ro

[jwvolz]

I'm almost exclusively an acrylic guy myself, odor/VOCs being the reason. I still have some Floquil primer I use now and then, but let it dry at least ten days before anything goes over it. Dry to the touch means nothing with lacquer; you have to wait until there is no residual odor.

 

Although I usually mostly Vallejo for flat, if I want a super dead flat finish I will use Testor's Dullcoat lacquer as my final finish, even over acrylics. It does work, but the only way to apply it safely that I have found is super light airbrush mist coats. I still generally try to avoid mixing systems and really find that there is generally nothing I can't do with just acrylics. For example, Model Masters acrylics come in a wide color range and availability, how ever their adhesion to bare styrene is abysmal. I've been burnt numerous times by them over the years, and now will only use them over primed plastic. For primer though I find I don't need anything more than whatever random light gray Tamiya acrylic I have handy. I've never had any paint come off with tape when doing that. 

 

Good luck OC. 

[Old Collingwood]

5 minutes ago, jwvolz said:

I'm almost exclusively an acrylic guy myself, odor/VOCs being the reason. I still have some Floquil primer I use now and then, but let it dry at least ten days before anything goes over it. Dry to the touch means nothing with lacquer; you have to wait until there is no residual odor.

 

Although I usually mostly Vallejo for flat, if I want a super dead flat finish I will use Testor's Dullcoat lacquer as my final finish, even over acrylics. It does work, but the only way to apply it safely that I have found is super light airbrush mist coats. I still generally try to avoid mixing systems and really find that there is generally nothing I can't do with just acrylics. For example, Model Masters acrylics come in a wide color range and availability, how ever their adhesion to bare styrene is abysmal. I've been burnt numerous times by them over the years, and now will only use them over primed plastic. For primer though I find I don't need anything more than whatever random light gray Tamiya acrylic I have handy. I've never had any paint come off with tape when doing that. 

 

Good luck OC. 

Thanks Joe.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

4 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

A frustrating thing about paints today and some glues is understanding enough about their chemistry to understand how they work.  This is ancient history but lacquer used to be a plastic dissolved in acetone.  It dried when the acetone evaporated leaving the plastic on the surface so it didn’t really cure like an enamel paint and could be easily wiped off with acetone on a rag.  I have no idea if modern day lacquers behave the same way.

 

Ro

Sorry Roger, this is going to come across hard but it's not meant that way, it is meant to educate......

 

There are basically four types of lacquers. the earliest types have been around for thousands of years....

 

Urushiol-based lacquers; 

Ancient, they go back 10's of thousands of years. they come from the resinous sap of a specific tree that grows in Asia.... when the resin dries, (loses it's water content) it becomes a very hard shell coating over whatever it's put on.. The Chinese Red and Japanese Black lacquers are of this variety. they need careful handling cause they are very toxic when wet....

We do not use these for model building.....

 

Nitrocellulose lacquers;

Developed in the 1800's they are solvent based lacquers containing nitrated cotton or other cellulose type materials. These were used for the coating on brass instruments and other decorative metal items and tools to preserve the polished finish. In the 1920's fast drying versions were developed for automobile painting, the most common color being black. The first colored lacquers were produced in 1923 by duPont for automotive paint the first color offered was blue "Duco" branding applied to GM's Oakland brand of cars. The rest of GM followed suit. By 1924 Nitrocellulose lacquers were being applied to anything metal requiring a shiney hard painted surface......

It is toxic and highly flammable when wet, it also brought about the extensive use of spray painting equipment. It is a close relative to the nitrocellulose used in explosives.

 

Acrylic lacquers;

Developed in the 1950's acrylic lacquers are thermoplastics, in most cases a polymerization of acrylic acid. these types of acrylics are also used in enamel paints because they dry to a hard shelled shine. These were used in the automotive industry until the three part polyurethane system was adopted for automotive finishes... (AKA Clear coat finishes)

 

Water-based lacquers;

More and more water-based colored lacquers are replacing solvent-based clear and colored lacquers in under hood and interior applications in the automobile industry and other similar applications.  (like model painting) Water based lacquers are used extensively in wood furniture finishing as well.

Water based lacquer has a tendency to be highly sensitive to other fresh finishes such as quick dry primer (excluding waterborne lacquer primers), caulking and even some paints that have a paint/primer aspect. Basically they react with most solvent based lacquers. Once it happens, there is no easy fix as the lacquer is so reactive to other products. Also it is generally softer than the other types of lacquers.....

 

The fact of the matter is, Lacquers are not and never have been plastics suspended in acetone.....

 

Most of this is my paraphrasing of Wiki information with lots of accreditations.....

 

EG

Edited April 29, 2020 by Egilman
Edited for statement clarity

[cog]

EG, thanks, very educational

[Roger Pellett]

Thanks EG,  no problem.

 

No one will ever accuse me of being up to date or of living in the present!  My lacquer knowledge is obviously outdated.

 

Now a minor quibble-  The cellulose in nitrocellulose lacquer is celluloid which is considered to be a plastic, although invented 90 years before the “plastic era.” When the acetone vehicle evaporates the celluloid is left, providing a shiny surface.  If the surface is wiped with acetone it dissolves the celluloid on the surface.  My father once refinished a grand piano in our garage by spraying it with this stuff.  Fortunately he didn’t blow up the house.

 

So, knowing how the various brands fit into these categories should help us to understand what can be applied over something else without causing the problems like OC is encountering.

 

What kind of “lacquer” is Testor’s Dullcote?

What is Tamyika primer?

Although it is sold as enamel what comes in a Krylon or RustOleum spray can?   I have been able to remove cured spray can paint by simply wiping it with an acetone soaked rag.

 

An interesting discussion.

 

Roger

[Old Collingwood]

A bit more progress   - firstly I sprayed the first Ocean Grey  coat  then put the fuselage away in the box to dry,   then I continued  with the wing  - applying a few coats of Black by hand,    this went on withought  event and had about 4 layers.   I then touched up a few small areas in Black and Cockpit Green,  I finished off  by painting flat Alum  in the Two  wing camera housings.

 

OC.

[Egilman]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

What kind of “lacquer” is Testor’s Dullcote?

What is Tamyika primer?

Although it is sold as enamel what comes in a Krylon or RustOleum spray can?

It's a solvent based nitrocellulose lacquer as is Tamiya's brand they are just formulated a bit different as far as the mix of components....

 

The first thing one needs to understand about Enamel Paint is that there is no generally accepted definition or standard for use of the term enamel paint, and not all enamel-type paints may use it. but in general there are two types, Vitreous Enamels, (those that need to be fired in a kiln to coat and adhere) Powder Coating is an example of Vitreous Enamel....... On the other side is Acrylic Enamels, which an acrylic medium in usually an oil base carrier. the types of Enamel Paint are all over the map and usually with a significant amount of gloss in them, however recently many latex or water-based paints have adopted the term as well.

 

By far, the type of Enamel Paint in most widespread use is Alkyd enamels of which category most model paint falls into, the same as most automotive and common house paint sold at big box stores. Acetone will destroy the base of any of these paints.

 

Today, what is known as Lacquer is actually Nitrocellulose paint, yes, still being used today despite it's toxicity and volubility, and is what I refer to as modern true lacquer. 

 

Examples of Enamel paints.....

 

• Floor enamel – May be used for concrete, stairs, basements, porches, and patios.
• Fast dry enamel – Can dry within 10–15 minutes of application. Ideal for refrigerators, counters, and other industrial finishes.
• High-temp enamel – May be used for engines, brakes, exhaust, and BBQs.
• Enamel paint is also used on wood to make it resistant to the elements via the waterproofing and rotproofing properties of enamel. Generally, treated surfaces last much longer and are much more resistant to wear than untreated surfaces.
• Model building - Xtracolor and Humbrol are mainstream UK brands. Colourcoats model paint is a high quality brand with authentic accurate military colours. Testors, a US company, offers the Floquil, Pactra, Model Master and Testors brands.
• Nail Enamel - to color nails is also called as enamel and it comes in many varieties for fast drying, color retention, gloss retention etc..
• Epoxy enamel, Polyurethane Enamel etc used in protective coating / industrial painting purpose in chemical and petrochemical industries for anti corrosion purposes.

The term "Enamel Paint" today, means "hard surfaced paint" and usually is in reference to paint brands of higher quality, floor coatings of a high gloss finish, or spray paints. Most enamel paints are alkyd resin based. Some enamel paints have been made by adding varnish to oil-based paint.

 

It's a generic trade term and is no longer considered a specific formulation....

Edited April 29, 2020 by Egilman