What were the lengths of cannons (gun) barrels?

[Modeler12]

I am trying to find out how long cannon barrels were on eighteenth century ships.

 

The late Harold Hahn, Master Ship Model Builder, published a neat diagram in his book with formulas to determine the size based on caliber. However, his formula for the length of the barrel does not 'compute'. The length A is indeterminate.

 

This may have come up before, but does anyone have a solution? I would like to know the length of the barrel for typical six pounders.

BTW the same page in his book has some great diagrams of gun carriages (again all based on caliber).

 

[russ]

Jay:

A cannon barrel is so many calibers in length. What ship are you researching? Time period? Nation?

 

 

Russ

Edited May 6, 2013 by russ

[Modeler12]

Jay:

A cannon barrel is so many calibers in length. 

Russ

That is what the formula also said. But what is that 'so many' calibers number?

When I plug in the caliber to the formula of Harold Hahn it comes up that A = A.

 

Russ, if you have other information about how long gun barrels were for specific ships, etc. I would like to know and, if you don't mind, please send me a message accordingly.

Thanks Russ, you are always on the ball!!!.

[russ]

Jay:

Gun barrel lengths varied a lot. We would need to know time period, nationality, ship type, was it a short pattern barrel, long pattern barrel, etc. Six pounders might be 6 ft long, 8 ft long, 9 ft long. They might have been an odd size or something smaller than 6 ft.

 

Russ

[mtaylor]

Jay,

In his book "Ships of the American Revolution", in the text, Hahn gave the caliber length which he referenced from an article by Brewington in American Neptune. 

 

The reference was 15:1 as "standard".  Yet for Alfred, the 32 pounders was 16.5:1, 18 pounders was19:1; 9 pounders on the qdeck was 20.25 :1, and 9 pounders on the foredeck were 23.25:1.

 

Yep.. as Russ said...  all over the place, they are.

[Modeler12]

Thanks guys, that is good information. 

I was really surprised that Harold did not clarify this in his book. But now I know which way to go with my next build and gun sizes.

[Modeler12]

I stand corrected. Mr. Hahn did explain in the text (page 196) that the length varied according to various sources or usages.

He mentioned that the ratio of 15:1 as suggested by Brewington results in a short barrel and further on explains all the different sizes he found for Alfred. Furthermore he goes on to describe other aspects of gun barrel designs that are interesting.

 

It goes to show that I should not go by just reading diagrams and plans. Read the rest.

[mtaylor]

Jay,

Since we're in agreement about Hahn... I have several AOTS books and their sizes don't always match up (drawing wise) for a give type gun.  If you know or think you know which ship you want the cannon for, it may very well have to be a ship by ship search... or maybe it's shipyard or armory.  I'm stil puzzled by this sort of thing.  Standard, yet, non-standard seems to be the rule.

[JPett]

Ahoy Jay

 

Rif Winfield's book "The 50 gun ship" also goes into this

 

From Pg 31

 

"Although in the case of the 48-gun ships, these were to be of 8 ½ ft length rather then the 9ft variety allocated to the 50-gun ship (and the 54). The main difference occurred on the upper deck where the 50-gun ship carried twenty two 6 pdrs compared to twenty for the 48-gun ships, in both classes these were 8ft guns compared to the 8 ½ ft weapons of the 54 gun-ship"

 

It looks like where the cannon is located on which ship also needs consideration.

[capnharv2]

While we're on the subject. . .

 

I've been asked to build cannon for a model of the Hudson Bay Co. Steamship Beaver, launched in 1835. So far, I've been unable to find much about cannon from that era. AOTS Beaver lists 5-Nine pounders, but says they were probably short cannon, and have no pictures to base anything on. I tried using Hahn's formulas, but the lengths came out too long to use on the ship. Also, since it was a merchant ship, not a naval vessel, that further clouds things (to me).

 

If anybody can help figure this out I'd appreciate it

 

Thanks!

 

Harvey

[russ]

Harvey:

There is an AOTS book on a steamship from 1835? That is interesting. I did not know that there was a book on that subject.

 

I would have thought that the cannon size would be drawn in the book. Is it not? 

 

Russ

[capnharv2]

Russ,

 

I apologize-I was wrong about it being AOTS. The book is "The Hudson's Bay Company's 1835 Steam Ship Beaver" by John McKay (published by Vanwell Publishing Ltd. (April 2004). The book's layout is very similar to AOTS and has several plates describing the build and, mostly, the steam engine.

 

I don't have the book anymore (I borrowed it from a museum), but the information on ordinance was almost non-existent. McKay references a couple sources, but I haven't checked them out yet. I probably will when I'm back in town.

 

But if you have some sources for merchant vessel ordinance from that period that would be very helpful.

 

Thanks,

 

Harvey

[Chuck]

I have seen six pounders that were 9 feet long.  For teh small cutter I am working on,  they were only 6' long.  There were no standard one size fits all.

 

Chuck

[Modeler12]

My guess is that making gun barrels was not an exact science but a trial and error thing. Early in the game they must have determined that if a barrel blew up you made it thicker. If you wanted a bit more accuracy you made it longer. If weight was a concern you made them shorter.

Since the barrels were cast out of iron the hoops were not really necessary, but since they were 'barrels' hoops were added.

 

I am looking at six pounders and will probably consider six feet like Chuck is using. That gives a ratio of length to bore of about 20 to 1.

[allanyed]

Brian Lavery's Arming and Fitting English Ships of War gives a lot of information on British armament.   Adrian Caruana's  History of English Sea Ordinance is probably the best source of detailed information.  Wish I had a copy of this two volume set!  

 

Allan

[russ]

I echo Allan's recommendations. I will add a multipart article in Seaways Ships in Scale from 2002-03 by Michael S. Hohimer, called "British Naval Ordinance 1700-1815." Lots of good details in that article on cannon barrel sizes.

 

Russ

[Modeler12]

Brian Lavery's Arming and Fitting English Ships of War gives a lot of information on British armament.   Adrian Caruana's  History of English Sea Ordinance is probably the best source of detailed information.  Wish I had a copy of this two volume set!  

 

Allan

Thanks Allan, our local library is connected with a lot of others in California and I have been able to get a couple good books through that system. I will give it a try tomorrow.

 

On hind sight, I find it interesting that for more than 200 years the guns of war changed very little. The basic gun barrel looked almost the same, lead shot, or some modifications there of, were thrown out in the hope that it might hit something, and gun powder was stored in little canvas bags until needed. Just think what has happened now in weapon design during the last fifty years or so.

I would not be surprised if part of the slow changes was because the British Admiralty was very strict in controlling how and what was to be done by their navy and suppliers of materials and goods. There was no incentive to make improvements.

[Modeler12]

Brian Lavery's Arming and Fitting English Ships of War gives a lot of information on British armament.   Adrian Caruana's  History of English Sea Ordinance is probably the best source of detailed information.  Wish I had a copy of this two volume set!  

 

Allan

Allan, I can understand that you would like a copy of these two volumes. Here is what my local librarian found out and I quote him:

 

 

I was able to find "The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War" by Brian Lavery at CSU Long Beach and San Jose State Libraries.  You may request a copy using the LINK+ system. 

 

Adrian B. Caruana's "History of English Sea Ordnance" is not available in LINK+, so that eliminates 40 public and academic libraries in California and Nevada.  A copy (volume II) was listed on Amazon.com for almost $2,000.00.  I checked in the University of California Berkeley catalog, but did not find it listed.  I checked the catalog for New York Public Library and did not find this title.

 

The US Library of Congress has "A History of English Sea Ordnance, 1523-1875" by Adrian B. Caruana.  The call # is VF57 .C37 1994 and is only accessible in the Jefferson or Adams Building Reading Rooms.  Of course, this would require a trip to Washington, DC.   http://www.loc.gov/index.html  http://www.loc.gov/visit/maps/

 

I hope this helps.  Unfortunately, Mr. Caruana's book is indeed a rarity.

 

I will get the copy he mentioned by Brian Levary, but as you can see this will come from either Long Beach or San Jose Cal State libraries.

[allanyed]

Hi Jay.

 

Thank you very much for the information and the search you did. 

 

My description of my book wish list was poorly worded, sorry for that.  I  do have Lavery's Arming and Fitting  but cannot find Adrian Caruana's

 volume II for a reasonable price.   Volume I is out there for under $400, but only goes to 1715.  That is about where I start in my modeling so I am on the hunt for volume II. 

 

Thanks again

 

Allan

[garyshipwright]

Hi Jay.

According to Adrian Caruana's in Vol 2 page 151/152 The 6 pounder was 6 foot 6 inches long and was a Armstrong-Frederick design of 1760. In 1787 there was also a 6 pounder that was 6 foot long and was of the Blomefield  design which is on page 270. In 1809, the carron company cast a 6 pounder of the Blomefield pattern  that was 7 foot 6 inches long which is on page 318. Jay as far as I know the British Admiralty didn't have control of the guns, it was the Ordnance board, so if there was any changes it would have came through them. From reading about this, at least to me it was like the navy just sort of rented the guns from them. If you was to do any searching on weapons you would have to look under the WO and if it had some thing to do with ships you would look under Adm, that is if you was to go to the Public Record's office, Kew and Chancery Lane, London.

Gary.

[Modeler12]

Gary that is great. Thank you.

As I mentioned, I was thinking of using six feet for the 6 pounders and that seems to be about the right choice. 

Does the book (lucky you for having a copy) mention anything about who Armstrong and Frederick were. Was Frederick a Frenchman by chance? I know there was a French privateer ship that was named Frederick. Just curious.

 

Right after I posted the above, I found an interesting article that not only explained who the two fellows were but also more details about gun design. Apparently Armstrong's designs were not very good, according to the article they all failed.

http://arc.id.au/Cannon.html

Edited May 8, 2013 by Modeler12

[Jasseji]

Let me jump in from a land-artillery perspective.

 

For artillery in the field, the lenght from breech to muzzle and the caliber was a given factor when ordering a gun and then the rest of the measurements where done according to this.

 

So in your case, the figure A would be "Ordered Caliber" x "Number of ordered lenght Calibers"

 

Usually, there were pre-given guidelines as to what amount of calibers are for what purpose.

 

For instance an 16pdr Ordinary Culverin (Long Gun) had a bore diameter (caliber) of 5¹⁄₂ in (140 mm) and a lenght of 12 ft; (3.6 m) which is 25 calibres lenght.

 

The rule was that Culverins (Long Range Siege Guns) were made in 25-40 calibers lenght, Kartouwe (Field Guns) 14-27 calibers.

 

The problem is that this was quite fluent and lenghts were arbitrary and not scientifically tested.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jasseji

[Jasseji]

This Article about Carronades includes a table with lenght comparison between Long Guns and Carronades divided by Shot size:

 

http://www.thenrg.org/resources/articles/The%20carronade.pdf

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jasseji

[timboat]

I hate to dig up this thread, but this diagram is very informative.

 

Lets say I want to make a miniature early 18th century typical British cannon that can fire .62 caliber musket balls, what would the measurements be?

 

Would "F" being 12" be feasible?  What would "A" be in this case since "A" is the tricky part.

[allanyed]

You are probably OK to use Brogard's proportions of 1716 wherein the total length is 25 15/16 X the caliber.  Yes, the lengths did vary in many cases for the same caliber, but for your project this should work.  All proportions from Brogard are on pages 92 and 93 of Lavery's Arming and Fitting  of English Ships of War

It may also be somewhere on the internet but I could not find it.

 

Allan

[jbshan]

Just in a general way, on board ship the larger calibres tended to be 'short' compared to the smaller ones because of the need to keep barrel length from limiting reloading on account of limited recoil space.  I didn't say that well.  If a barrel was so long that it couldn't recoil far enough before hitting hatch coamings, etc. to reload easily it wasn't much use on a ship.

Even among a group of barrels cast as a batch, there would be differences in length and weight, to the point that length of barrel was a VIN number of sorts, to identify guns provided to particular ships.

[shiloh]

There is Caliber and then there are Calibers. Caliber is a measurement of the bore diameter and Calibers is the length of the bore, 'not the length of the gun'. The 3" 50, 5" 38 and 8" 55 are just a few of many, but I mention them because I have experience with them. There are many other sizes of guns, the caliber and calibers can tell a lot of information about them. That way of designating naval guns has came down through history at least up to the 5"54 which swere showing up just before I left active service in the Navy.

jud

[jbshan]

Exactly, Jud.  A gun tube is delineated by the number of calibres of length.  A ten inch 50 caliber gun is 500 inches long.

In olden times they would measure the barrel on the outside as in the drawing in an above post.  You could have guns from the same batch differing by a few inches since they were cast muzzle up and the excess cut off.  The weight and length then became identifying characteristics of that barrel and could be chiseled onto it.

In the Royal Navy guns were provided by the Ordnance Board as available and as close as they could to the request of the Navy.  It was then up to the Navy to distribute them about each ship for best effect.

This is mostly all covered in the Lavery volume cited above.  You may, once you see it from the Library, decide to bite the bullet and buy your own copy on one of the used book services.

[shiloh]

What I was pointing out is that a 3"50 gun can have a 150" bore, yet the gun tube be 200".

jud

[Alex M]

You can look at "A Treatise of Artillery" from John Muller, printed 1768, online:

 

https://books.google.de/books?id=vylEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

On page 33 he explains length of the guns. The book also contains several tables of dimensions for british and french guns.

Alex