16th-Century Spanish galleon by Apxeos - 1:60 - from 3D project to ship model

[Apxeos]

Hi Patrick!
Thank you for your attention to my topic. I have made significant progress in work and will soon post new photos.

 

Ron

Edited December 12, 2019 by Apxeos

[Ab Hoving]

Hello Ron,

 

I am surprised to hear that I even have fans in Moskou :-).

 

Your build is inspirational, especially because of the thorough research you have done. I remember I looked at the material for a long time because it is interesting to reach beyond the borders of the written data but never succeeded in making good plans from what was available, but you did it. You succeeded in getting a fine line in your design. Chapeau!

 

I do have some positive criticism though.

As you know the average number of frames for vessels of this era is 60-70. As the tops of your frames show on the inside of your bulwarks it might be an idea to add extra frames, quite simple as separate frame tops. They don't have to be worked into the top rail or the waterway but I'm sure they will improve the looks of the model.

 

I also have some doubts about the hight of the model. As you have showed the cannons of those days were very low, compared to guns on carriages of a century later. That implies that the hight between the decks could be made significantly lower. The fact that people could not stand straight was of no importance to the builders, 1.50 m must have been no exception. I think your decks have a more than comfortable hight.  Don't start ripping your model to pieces, what I say is just an educated guess.

 

Furthermore I have no remarks, except that this seems to be a beautiful project to execute in paper. It will take away much of the costs that come with wooden kits. Just a suggestion...

[Apxeos]

Hello Ab!
Thank you for your participation. I agree with your comment on top timbers. Their number can easily be increased by one and a half or even twice. I completely missed this moment.
With the height of the decks, not everything is simple, it is a debatable issue. Since the original is presumably a Spanish ship, I focused primarily on the Spanish primary sources. According to them, the standard height of the interdeck space is 3 ½ codos or 3.5 X 0.575 = 2.013 m.

García del Palacio, la Instrucción Náutica (p. 1587) & Ordenanzas Carrera de Indias (p. 1607).
The Portuguese primary sources of that time give an even greater height - 9 palmos de goa, which is 2.31 m.

Oliveira, Fernando, O Liuro da fabrica das naus (c. 1580).
This is the height of the deck from board to board without regard to the thickness of the beam.
It is clear that this value was not maintained along the entire length of the deck and varied in some places, but in general it was a standard.

I did not quite understand the remark about the height of the model.
It was the silhouette of the ship in the figure, that is, its ratio of length to height, was the starting point of the reconstruction.

If I made a mistake with the height of the interdeck space, it is enough to simply recalculate the scale of the model.

The height of the model itself does not change.

For example, with a model scale of 1:50, the height of the interdeck space of the original will be 1.7 m, and the length, in turn, will decrease to 20.0 m.
Regarding the project on paper, this is interesting.

Such a thought did not occur to me. Did you mean a set of assembly drawings or a monograph?

Ron

[Ab Hoving]

Hello Ron,

 

Thank you, I am totally convinced. Still it is peculiar that the hight was as much as that. We've seen it in the Wasa in Stockholm. Incredibly high decks, and we all know how that ended.🙂 It seems useless to give a ship so much hight where is was neither necessary for the length of the people, nor for the hight of the guns, which was very low. And added to the number of decks fore and aft, which are sometimes visible on pictures, once should be inclined to have some doubts.

 

No, no, although the way you worked your way through the available material is worth a paper in any case. No, what I meant was, that this hull shape could be a very nice template for a model built in paper. Perhaps you have seen my tutorial on building with paper (although in Eastern Europe you can find model builders on every street corner who are much more capable in the execution of the build). 

There are people out there who make beautiful paper kits of ships like this one...

[Baker]

I just viewed your build a second time. Very educational.

This is a model that really looks like an early galleon.

Since the start of my Golden Hind, i have read a lot and did a lot of research for ships from this period.

Have you ever encountered this on the internet?

Not a real Spanish Galleon, but a Spanish whaler.
Very interesting

 

http://www.patrimoniocultural.gov.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/18/22.pdf

 

http://www.albaola.com/en/site/building-process

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/albaola/albums/72157648353383884

 

 

 

 

[Apxeos]

Hello Ab!
Perhaps it is the height of the interdeck space that is guilty of the fact that we have got the image of pot-bellied and high-broadside Spanish galleons slowly crossing the Atlantic?
Seriously, I think that the great height was offset by the considerable width and depth of the underwater hull.
Each nation made ships for its sailing conditions and used local shipbuilding traditions and materials.
Even at the end of the 17th century, the ships of the Dutch, English, French and Spaniards confidently differ even in silhouette and individual features of the building.
I really like what you make of paper. It turns out a surprisingly accurate form of the hull and a lively image of a real ship. The first time I see such a technology. But for this it’s not enough to have good hands, you still have to be a little artist in your soul.
My experience with paper models was rather negative due to the nature of the material. In addition, I like the process of working with wood and its smell.
Ron

[Apxeos]

Patrick, thanks for the links!
I was familiar with the early work on San Juan, but about 3 or 4 years ago I missed this topic.
It was very interesting and informative to get acquainted with how things are now.
Particularly impressed with the construction process of the San Juan replica, the team practically does not use electric tools.
Now it will be especially interesting, since they reached the stage of construction of the aft and bow superstructures. They were not preserved on the original, there are no data.
Also, finally, I got a more complete picture of the San Juan model. She raises more questions for me than gives answers. Why were such strange solutions applied? Perhaps some additional data unknown to me were used.
Ron

[Apxeos]

Pasted a final facing.

 

[Chuck]

Wonderful model.  Its very graceful and elegant. Well done.

[mtaylor]

4 hours ago, Apxeos said:

She raises more questions for me than gives answers. Why were such strange solutions applied? Perhaps some additional data unknown to me were used.
 

I don't think it's you.   You doing a beautiful build and excellent research on something that's not well documented.  The items you point out fall into that category of a documentation failure.  If we just go back to the late 1700's and even the 1800's much hasn't been documented.  Seems only when the industrial age from about 1900 on did the "known things" start getting documented.

[Ab Hoving]

8 hours ago, Apxeos said:

My experience with paper models was rather negative due to the nature of the material. In addition, I like the process of working with wood and its smell.

Judged from the picture of your paper model you surely didn't bad. And you are right, the smell of wood is one of the secret treasures of life. But paper is faster to build with and once you get the hang of it, the result shows little difference with wood.

I especially like the beautiful sheer of your model. Something I cannot say about the replica of the San Joan. Why is the top rail in the aft part of the ship visually dropping? I doubt if any shipbuilder of the past would accept such a horrible line. And for no obvious reason...

[Blue Pilot]

This is a fascinating build log.  I really appreciate the research and history you have done and posted as well as watching the ship itself come to life.  It is very educational for me.

[Louie da fly]

On 12/12/2019 at 10:05 PM, Apxeos said:

The tenons have only technological value, they allow you to increase the structural strength and correctly position the part.

Thanks. That clears it up.

 

Steven

[Apxeos]

On 12/17/2019 at 3:52 AM, Chuck said:

Wonderful model.  Its very graceful and elegant. Well done.

Chuck, Thanks for your rating!

[Apxeos]

On 12/17/2019 at 6:59 AM, mtaylor said:

I don't think it's you.   You doing a beautiful build and excellent research on something that's not well documented.  The items you point out fall into that category of a documentation failure.  If we just go back to the late 1700's and even the 1800's much hasn't been documented.  Seems only when the industrial age from about 1900 on did the "known things" start getting documented.

mtaylor, thanks! I agree with you.
However, it is strange that they did not take as an example the beautiful image of such a ship, which they use as their emblem.

[Apxeos]

On 12/18/2019 at 5:25 AM, Blue Pilot said:

This is a fascinating build log.  I really appreciate the research and history you have done and posted as well as watching the ship itself come to life.  It is very educational for me.

Thanks! You give me an incentive to continue working.

[Apxeos]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:27 AM, Ab Hoving said:

Why is the top rail in the aft part of the ship visually dropping? I doubt if any shipbuilder of the past would accept such a horrible line. And for no obvious reason...

I also do not understand this. It is also very strange that the chainwales are fixed at different heights. I do not see the reason for this decision.

[Apxeos]

He made another type of cannon carriages for more powerful cannons on the waist.
Below is their prototype.

 

[Apxeos]

Total gun-carriage 3 types:
- classic two-wheeled spanish
- light two-wheeled gun-carriage according to the type of carriages from the Swedish Mars
- two-wheeled gun-carriage of a more powerful design (see above)

 

[chris watton]

Fantastic work!

[Apxeos]

I made the manhole grilles (Is this right?) For the upper decks using different technologies.
Simple, laser-cut as a whole, as they already stand on the lower decks.
Prefabricated, as usual, are in KIT sets, but also cut with a laser.
Each has its own drawbacks and strengths.

 

[Apxeos]

Gathered crow's-nest on the main mast.

[Apxeos]

6 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Fantastic work!

Chris, thanks!

[Ab Hoving]

Ron, as to your remark about the chainwales of the model at different heights, I think I know what the reason for that is. I was Park Canada's guest in the nineties in Ottawa, when this project was in its early stages. Robert Grenier and Brad Loewen studied this Basque whaling ship, which was found in Red Bay in a very inventive way: all the parts that were found at the seabed were meticulously measured and executed in wood at a 1/10 scale, inclusive all holes for trunnels and nails. The original wood was put back into the water for better preservation. In the lab all the separate parts were put together again, thus trying to unveil the method of building. I am sure that the chainwales that were found, only fitted where they were placed on the model. I agree it is unusual, but I know these researchers did a thorough job.

That still does not explain the nasty rail on top in the back of the ship...

Edited December 21, 2019 by Ab Hoving

[Apxeos]

As a prototype, i used crow's-nest with Mary Rose and Mataró-model.

 

[Apxeos]

Established in place the channel board, anchor hawse and ladders on the main deck.

[Baker]

Nice work.
Always pleasant to see a 16th century model with the fore mast in front of the fore castle.
 

[Apxeos]

19 hours ago, Backer said:

Nice work.
Always pleasant to see a 16th century model with the fore mast in front of the fore castle.
 

Thanks Patrick!
I think manufacturers of KIT models are not in vain avoiding such a solution and I may have problems with rigging the fore mast.
But the fact that many ships of the second half of the 16th century had the fore mast in front of the fore castle is beyond my doubt.

[Apxeos]

I am also sure that ships of this type were represented in the great Armada of 1588.

There are quite a few drawings that show this.

Below is N.S. Rosario and San Salvador in 1588.

 

[Baker]

The text on the hull of this model

 

RAST . V . TER . WAPEN . GHY . CHRISTEN . SCHAPEN . WILT . STRYT . BEGINNEN

????    U   TER   WAPEN   GIJ     KRISTEN     SCHAPEN  WIL    STRIJD  BEGINNEN

 

Something like :

CHRISTIANS,  AT ARMS. IF YOU WANT TO START THE BATTLE  ( In my poor  google english..)

17 minutes ago, Apxeos said:

I may have problems with rigging the fore mast.

I expect the same problem with my Pelican /Golden Hind