Hanse Kogge by Catopower - FINISHED - Shipyard - 1/72 scale - CARD

[catopower]

4 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Clare,

 

    I am looking at the painting and have some questions. 

 

   After the first wash of #03 I have a wash of 15/29/30 (yellow/brown/black) which is supposed to be the basic wood, followed by a second wash of 15/29/30 in different proportions that are meant to simulate wood grain.  First ratios are 6:25:5 while the second are 6:1:1.  This doesn't make sense to me.  The first set of ratios would seem to make a darker color. 

 

    Am I wrong or did I get the ratios wrong?

Chuck, check the ratios again. They're really weird the way they are written.

 

My instruction book actually says 6 : 0.25 : 0.5. I've never seen rations written with numbers less than 1 like that. In the first place, it's really hard to read, and even harder to measure "6:0.25:0.5".

 

So, I "Normallized" it by multiplying everything by 4. So, now it's 24:1:2 Same ratios, but easier to work with. 

[Chuck Seiler]

16 minutes ago, catopower said:

My instruction book actually says 6 : 0.25 : 0.5

 

Hmmm.  My book said "6:0,25:0,5".  The commas threw me.  I agree that ratios with less than 1 are strange.  The 24:1:2 makes more sense.  Thanks.

[mtaylor]

4 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

 

Hmmm.  My book said "6:0,25:0,5".  The commas threw me.  I agree that ratios with less than 1 are strange.  The 24:1:2 makes more sense.  Thanks.

Depending on the country, commas are used instead of decimal points.   And I have no idea why.

[catopower]

14 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Depending on the country, commas are used instead of decimal points.   And I have no idea why.

Over there, they're saying "some countries use decimal points instead of commas. And I have no idea why." 

 

Chuck, I know what you mean. Yes, mine had the commas too – I eventually just adapted. But, I of course first read a ratio of 6:0??? Followed by a 25:0 and a then a 5! 

Edited April 4, 2020 by catopower

[catopower]

So, I ended up adding the ribs, which was a change from all the planking.

 

It was hard to keep track of them as they are all different. I had it all worked out, but try as I might, I managed to lose track at one point, so I just had to figure out where I went wrong and do the best I could.

 

The ribs are each numbered, but number is engraved on the part itself. It's so tiny that someone looking at the model would NEVER see it. Unfortunately, that also made it really difficult to tell which number rib I was looking at, even when wearing magnifying lenses. But, they are in order on the sheet, so I just went down the line and, near the end, found that I was off somewhere. I don't think it's a big deal. I ended up fashioning a pair of the pieces from scrap card stock.

 

It's too soft to cut easily, even with a scalpel blade, so I hit the paper with a shot of thin CA, which made it stiff as plastic. Then, I could shape the part fairly easily. The only difficulty was the small size of the part. But, I managed.

 

Now, the one thing about models where parts are all pre-engineered and pre-cut is that at some point, you find out how far you were off in the laying down of those planks. Because it's a clinker hull, the ribs are shaped to fit, like a shallow saw tooth, against each plank. Clearly, after all the planks have been laid down, I'm off by a couple millimeters, as the shape of the ribs doesn't quite match the lay of the planks. 

 

Again, I don't think it's a big deal, as you can't really see any of this at this scale once the planks are all in place. Still, it's a little disconcerting when you get to this step. You just have to ignore the need for perfection.

 

This isn't a feature of just these card models. I've found this is also true on some of the Woody Joe kits of traditional Japanese boats, in which all the parts are laser cut. If you don't build it precisely as intended, you end up with little imperfections. And, it's nearly impossible to build a kit like this without having little imperfections. It's just the nature of the kit.

[Chuck Seiler]

4 hours ago, catopower said:

Chuck, I know what you mean. Yes, mine had the commas too – I eventually just adapted. But, I of course first read a ratio of 6:0??? Followed by a 25:0 and a then a 5! 

 

They are not the snappiest of instructions.

[Chuck Seiler]

Clare,

 

    This is really looking good.  Looking at the pics in post 65, if you told me that was cardboard not wood, I would be hard pressed to believe,  Well done!!

[catopower]

Thanks Chuck. I think it will look pretty decent in the end, even though I can see various flaws while I'm building it. 

 

I agree the instructions aren't the clearest. When you get to the adding of those ribs, and probably in many other places, it's kind of a guessing game as to what's going on. It makes sense when you're done with a step. But, when you get to something new, sometimes you've got to stare at it and look over the parts for a while until it becomes clear how things are supposed to go.

 

My one piece of advice is to stick closely to the laying of those planks. Overlap up to the line marking where the next plank goes, but don't cross it. Also, keep in mind that the planks at the stern will eventually be level with the stern post. Well, at least on mine I guess. On the Wonder Dog, it's probably the same, but I don't know that for sure.

 

Good luck with it though!

[Chuck Seiler]

Clare,

 

    Any progress?

 

   I am dipping my toe in the painting.  #03 wash complete on all exterior planks and most deck planks.  When you applied the 15/29/30 wash #1, did you apply 1 coat or more?  I applied a single coat of wash on the interior cargo area but it was splotchy.  I applied a second coat to the athwart-ships bulkhead in the cargo bay.  It looks much better, but darker that I think we are going for.

 

    Your thoughts?

[tkay11]

On 4/4/2020 at 9:39 PM, catopower said:

so I hit the paper with a shot of thin CA, which made it stiff as plastic

One thing that has puzzled me about stiffening card with CA is the type of glue you then use to stick the stiffened card to another piece, especially if that piece has been stiffened by CA. Do you use more CA, or do you use a type of paper contact cement such as Elmers or UHU, or do you use PVA as the glue of choice? I've not had much success with gluing stiffened card, so I thought I'd better check in case it's my lack of technique or simply the wrong adhesive.

 

The other thing is that card seems to soak up a lot of the thin CA. Is there any way of doing this that is more economical?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[catopower]

Hi Tony,

 

I've only had to use CA to stiffen the cardboard in a couple places on this model. So, I haven't had to worry about CA glue economy. On this model, my main cement has actually been contact cement. Which works fine of the CA'd parts. 

 

For my HMS Alert model that I built several years ago, I used wood glue for much of it. 

 

I'm no paper model expert, so I can't say which one is absolutely best. But, I've been having good luck using the contact cement so far. You just need it fresh, so it's doesn't get stringy. Plus, rather than using the brush that's attached to the lid, in most cases I just use a thin scrap of wood as an applicator.

 

 

Chuck,

 

I've been sidetracked trying to get some other work done for the past couple weeks, but I think I'll get back to it this weekend. On applying the color mix, the number of coats I used depended on how much I thinned the paint, and if I was happy with the coloring.

 

Once I was confident with the color mix and technique, I painted the whole sheet of planks at one time. After it dried for 24 hours, I did go over much of it a second time with a thin wash. Also, I chose random planks to either skip or do again, to get a little color variation between some planks.

 

I say, go with whatever looks better. Darker is fine. In fact, one question I've seen asked about the color scheme is "shouldn't it be darker?"

 

 

[catopower]

Hi Chuck,

 

Another thing. I found that with the paper and acrylics in particular, if you brush it too much, it will look splotchy. I had the same problem. If you just brush the plank in one stroke, or minimum of strokes, it will look much more even. When painting the cargo deck, that's really hard to do after it's installed, which is why I don't like the look of mine. Good thing it's all pretty well hidden inside. 

 

After that, I was more careful with the painting and always painted in the direction of the imagined wood grain. I'm happier with the results now.

[Chuck Seiler]

    I managed to get the single strakes looking pretty good.  The dilemma is that if you use too much paint on the brush you gob a lot of paint and it seeps in.  If you use too little, you have to dip your brush again and you get splotching.  I managed to work out a system where I got a good amount of paint, started in the middle of the strake, at one of the seams.  I single brushed in one direction (usually the longest), then starting at the seam, single stroke in the other.  THEN starting at one end, a single stroke down the length of the strake to even everything out.  Applying at the seam allows any difference in shading due to the diff in the first and second stroke to be attributed to being different planks.

 

    The planking sections and structures that involved multiple strakes did not go as well.  I'm not sure what to do about those.

[catopower]

Hi Chuck, 

 

Yeah, my multi-plank pieces look splotchier. I'm just living with it. What I found was that if you don't get it in one thin coating, you have to wait and let it dry over night before you go over it again. Basically, after it's all dried, you can then go back and apply a very thin wash on selected planks, so you get some kind of variation.

 

When it's all done, I think you'll find it looks better than you think it will. 

 

[catopower]

I decided it was time to make some more progress on the Hanse Kogge today. 

 

Actually, last week I added the upper planking strake to the hull. In the process, I discovered that my planks were running a bit too low, particularly towards the bow. I'm not sure how this will affect the build in the end. For now, the timber heads look like they will stick up too high. Later on, I may just have to trim them down. That's a bit hard to do with card stock, so I treated each of them with a shot of thin CA to stiffen them up.

 

It wasn't a problem, but I noted that when I hit them with CA, there was some kind of chemical reaction. I know this, because every time I did this, there was a waft of smoke! I watched carefully to make sure my card model didn't burst into flames, but I needed the CA to stiffen the cardboard. The only think I can figure is that it was reacting with either the paint, which I think is unlikely, or the contact cement. Now, I've used CA and contact cement together before and never had this issue. So, I don't know what was going on. Anyway, it's done and I and my model survived.

 

Anyway, today I started adding the deck, beginning with the sub-layers...

I finally got wise and started writing the part number on the piece in pencil. 

 

Below, you can see how much the timber heads stick up. The instructions show them flush with the upper edge of the planking. I'm not sure how I got this far off. I guess I was worrying too much about covering the black reference lines printed on the hull planks, which serve as alignment guides. I placed the planks so as to cover these lines, but I guess you're supposed to only line the plank to the edge of the line, even though it means the line may be visible. It's in the joint between the clinker laid planks, so I guess it wouldn't be noticeable anyway.

Below is the deck after adding the strips of planks.

As you can see, the deck planks ended up a little splotchy. As Chuck mentioned, it's a bit hard to paint these pieces that make up groups of planks, side by side, without the splotchiness. 

 

The next step has me a little nervous, given the issue I had with the bulwarks height. Next, I have to add all the visible framing, of which there is quite a bit. 

 

 

[PD Sergeant]

Based on your thread I just ordered this from Ages of Sail. I’ve never put together one of these because building most wooden ship models you have to steam/bend planks. I’ll be following the rest of your build. Wish me luck!

[Chuck Seiler]

Clare,

 

    A lot of good advice.  I think I will follow the "write the part number on the part" advice.

 

    The multi-plank piece is below the turn of the bilge so I don't think many people will see it.  I don't hold out much hope for more visible areas.   I have decided to do the decks, the crows nest, the forecastle (it is a REAL fore-CASTLE) and...aft castle in wood.  Other areas to be determined. 

 

    At this point, I am still working on the planking.  I found my camera.  If the hull planking doesn't look too crappy, I will start a build log.

[Chuck Seiler]

5 hours ago, PD Sergeant said:

Based on your thread I just ordered this from Ages of Sail. I’ve never put together one of these because building most wooden ship models you have to steam/bend planks. I’ll be following the rest of your build. Wish me luck!

 

Clare,

 

    When is Ages of Sail getting the wood versions?  I noticed on the "SHIPYARD" site, they not only have the wood "Wonder Dog" (yeah, i knw, i know, it's Mad Dog or Wunder Hound), they also have a kogge...although it appears different than the Bremen Kogge.

[Chuck Seiler]

8 hours ago, PD Sergeant said:

Based on your thread I just ordered this from Ages of Sail. I’ve never put together one of these because building most wooden ship models you have to steam/bend planks. I’ll be following the rest of your build. Wish me luck!

 

Good luck!!

[Moab]

Clare; fantastic build!! I’ve never built a card model and the fit and detail are exceptional. I went to the Ages of Sail link you posted and the sample photos on the site are amazing. I look forward to following your build...Moab

[catopower]

8 hours ago, PD Sergeant said:

Based on your thread I just ordered this from Ages of Sail. I’ve never put together one of these because building most wooden ship models you have to steam/bend planks. I’ll be following the rest of your build. Wish me luck!

Hello PD Sergeant, good luck with your build. Most important thing is to take your time, test fit the parts, try out painting and gluing on scraps before you try it out on the real parts. Look ahead in the instruction book, so you know what the future steps are. You'll want to uderstand how the steps you take will affect later steps. Also, it's a good idea to take photos and start a build log here, so you can get help here on MSW.

 

So far, it's been a fun build, but it has it's challenges!

[catopower]

Thanks Moab. As I mentioned to PD Sergeant, it's been a fun build, but it does have its challenges.

 

Chuck, funny you should ask. The order for both wooden kits, the Wutender Hund and the new Kogge von Kampen, just shipped from Poland this morning. Not sure how long it will take to get to Ages of Sail, but they're on their way now. Probably be 3 or 4 weeks before they show up online. 

 

Interesting that the new kit looks identical to the Hanse Kogge kit I'm working on, but has a smaller, simpler stern castle, and has a plain sail.

 

 

 

[ccoyle]

I am strongly leaning toward Wütender Hund as my next ship project, but will probably take a short break between ships to knock out a card plane.

[catopower]

Hi Chris, you're going to have a crowd of people forming a line, waiting to see your Wütender Hund build...

[AnobiumPunctatum]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:39 AM, catopower said:

TThe order for both wooden kits, the Wutender Hund and the new Kogge von Kampen, just shipped from Poland this morning. Not sure how long it will take to get to Ages of Sail, but they're on their way now. Probably be 3 or 4 weeks before they show up online. 

 

 

The stern castle of the "Kogge von Kampen" is based on a shipwreck which was found in Kamen Netherlands. It's showing an older type of a stern castle. I am quite shure, that the rest of the kit is based on "Kogge von Bremen"

The cog "Wütender Hund" shows in my opinion the classic cog also with a stem castle. It's a generic cog model. Most historical pictures are showing the stem castle. There is always a discussion, of the Bremen cog was finished before they got lost, because she don't has this.

[catopower]

Well, it probably doesn't look like much was done, but I made a little more progress on this model.

 

There is a bunch of framing at the bow and stern that I finally managed to add. It was a lot simpler than I expected. However, the compounded errors I've made on the hull planking caused me some minor issues. All should turn out fine in the end.

 

 

 

There were a few bulwarks planks to add too, and that was probably a little weirder. There are two heavy posts, near the bow, their placement is based on the hull planking, which a little off on my model, so I wasn't really sure about the alignment. I did the best I could, but when I started to lay down the bulwarks planking, lining up the planks on the proper fram, the planks didn't line up into the posts the way they were designed.

 

It's not really an obvious error, except that I know the ends of these planks are supposed to fit into the slots in the side of the post. Also, note that nail patterns don't quite line up with the frames. This will be less noticeable once I trim off the excess frame that sticks up.

 

 

 

At the stern as well, the plank ends are apparently supposed to line up with the edge of the frames. For the most part, these aren't too bad here.  But, the nail patterns don't really line up with much.

 

 

 

Big problem with these photos is that they show my terrible deck paint job, particularly on the starboard side. Port side looks better. I'll try to fix it up a little, but it looks worse in the photos than when you look at the model directly.

 

My next concern is that there's a beam that runs across the bottom of the two posts. If the positioning is off, then the beam might look a bit off, or I might have some trouble attaching it. I almost feel like the beam should have been attached to the bottom of the post first, the bulwarks planking added second, the the post assembly added last.

 

But, this I've found to be the one issue with any model with a lot of pre-fabricated parts. Not just card models, but wooden ones too. Same thing was true with the Japanese higaki kaisen model I built a few years back and even with the kitamaebune model I've been building this year. Laser-cut parts are design to fit a specific way, and if you don't get the positioning right, it's going to throw something off.

 

It seems that the closer your model comes to being scratch-built, the more likely everything will be aligned properly. But, it's a lot more work. This may have a few alignment issues, but the build is really pretty easy.

 

Clare

 

[Chuck Seiler]

11 minutes ago, catopower said:

But, this I've found to be the one issue with any model with a lot of pre-fabricated parts. Not just card models, but wooden ones too. Same thing was true with the Japanese higaki kaisen model I built a few years back and even with the kitamaebune model I've been building this year. Laser-cut parts are design to fit a specific way, and if you don't get the positioning right, it's going to throw something off.

    I had that same problem with the hull planks.  I concluded that I didn't flatten the plank out enough as I was gluing it (them) in and the result is the plank did reach all the way to where it was supposed to be.

 

    For what it's worth, your bulwark plank nails are alot closer to being correct than mine.

 

    Looking good!  Maybe we can have a cog fleet at the 2021 NRG conference.

[Louie da fly]

This is a beautiful build. Nice to see so many mediaeval craft getting built, and it makes a nice change from the ubiquitous Viking ships (much though I like them, a bit of variety is a good thing).

 

As far as minor errors in alignment go, they certainly don't leap out at you - it's a very good looking model. Not sure I'd want to try working in card- I think wood is a lot more forgiving.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 3:57 AM, catopower said:

one question I've seen asked about the color scheme is "shouldn't it be darker?"

Actually, no. Contemporary pictures of cogs quite often show them as quite light colour, suggestive of pine:

 

     

 

 

Though others are somewhat darker:

 

 

     

 

 

 

 

[catopower]

Thanks for the nice comments all. 

 

Chuck, we have this Hanse Kogge in card, your Wütender Hund in card, Chris's Wütender Hund in wood, that just leaves the wooden Kogge von Kampen kit, and we'd have Shipyard's full collection covered!

 

Any volunteers? Ages of Sail got a whole bunch of the wooden Koggen von Kampen kits...

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

This is a beautiful build. Nice to see so many mediaeval craft getting built, and it makes a nice change from the ubiquitous Viking ships (much though I like them, a bit of variety is a good thing).

 

As far as minor errors in alignment go, they certainly don't leap out at you - it's a very good looking model. Not sure I'd want to try working in card- I think wood is a lot more forgiving.

 

Actually, no. Contemporary pictures of cogs quite often show them as quite light colour, suggestive of pine:

 

Louie, thanks for the comments. On the coloring, like with most things, over time and repeated applications of protective coatings like pine tar oil, the darker the ship will be. Consider this a newish ship!

 

And, as for not wanting to work with card, I've completed a couple and find it a really fun medium. It's also a much "cleaner" medium than wood, as it makes little mess in comparison. The main feature that I find less forgiving is simply things that are pre-cut. But, they are also amazing time savers. 

 

I wasn't really feeling all that great yesterday, though much better today, but I'd just stayed in and did a few more things to the model. There is a ladder at the bow that I completed, as well as that beam the runs underneath those two heavy posts on the bulwarks.

 

As expected, the beam didn't fit correctly. In order to get it to fit, I had to remove one of the posts and also trim down the ends of the beam just a little. But, it worked, and I was able to fit the beam and glue the post back into place. When adding the knees to this assembly, I could see that the hull didn't flare outward at the top quite as much as it was supposed to, as the knees didn't sit right. However, the bulwarks are flexible enough that gluing and clamping the knees into place pushed the bulwarks to the correct shape.

 

 

 

So, next, I decided it was time to deal with the timberheads sticking up out of the bulwarks and all. Wondering why card modelers in Eastern Europe are always risking their fingers with razor blades, I thought I'd give it a try. I have plenty of half blades, which gives less "handle" for holding the blade, but maybe less risk of slicing the fingers with only half the sharp edges.

 

 

This turned out to work really well on the untreated card parts, but I had stiffened each of the timberheads with a shot of thin CA. It didn't work so well on those, and I was forced to lay the hull on it's side to support the bulwarks, while I chopped down on the timberheads with a scalpel. This worked out well. I then applied a little paint over the ends to clean up the cuts.

 

 

Next step will be to add a couple support knees to the bulwarks around midships and to begin assembling the rudder.

 

Clare

 

[Chuck Seiler]

39 minutes ago, catopower said:

Wondering why card modelers in Eastern Europe are always risking their fingers with razor blades

There ARE such things as single edged razor blades.