74 Gun | Ship of the Line - 3rd Rate | Blender

[Kurtis]

hi all!

 

I am in the middle of building a 74 Gun Frigate within Blender and I'm enjoying the process. I'm starting to reach the stage now where I'll be modelling and adding the smaller bits and pieces that either aren't on, or aren't clear on the blueprints that I'm using. I'm hoping prey tell that I can get some help here if I run into any problems.

 

I'm thinking of turning this into an animation in the short-term. I don't have any enquiries at this time but I'm certain I'll start asking very soon cos I wanna get the masts, sails and their relative rigging in place and not being a sailor by any means will mean I'll have to ask a lot of questions!

 

The model I'm building is a late 1700's / early 1800's Frigate (second rate?) ship of the line, loosely based on blueprints but I'm not aiming or looking for like-for-like exactness. I'm certainly enjoying adding my own design choices and ideas in there.

 

I've attached my progress to date (certainly anything that springs to mind straight away for improvements would be nice).

 

At the minute I'm working a bit more on the doors there, I'm not sure yet whether to close off the lower deck that's open (near where the Capstan is) with the same wall as just underneath the poop deck. If anyone has any, I'd love some floorplans of these kind of ships! I've looked but I can't seem to find anything.

 

I'm gonna sort the gun ports out when I've finished the deck-tops cos they'll take a lot of tweaking.

[tkay11]

Really nice and impressive work! Were the gunports so rounded?

 

Tony

[Kurtis]

9 minutes ago, tkay11 said:

Really nice and impressive work! Were the gunports so rounded?

 

Tony

hi Tony!

 

No, they're squared like most but the subsurf on the model has rounded them out. I'm intending to model a frame for the gun ports and square them out that way. I tried edge-sharps but the way I've built the ship with modifiers has made that particular method difficult.

 

I want to model the cannons first though. In fact that's one of the questions I was meaning to ask - do you know what the standard size of guns were on these? My understanding is they were usually two sizes, one for the main decks and a smaller for the top (and a weirdly long bow-chasers type as well if you count them). I keep stumbling on the 12 pounder as a size. Getting this right will help with the scaling and I can fix the gun-ports once and for all

[ccoyle]

Hi, Kurtis.

 

As a wee correction, 74s were generally considered 3rd-rates. You are correct about the guns -- heavier guns were carried on the lower deck. There wasn't a standard for the size of guns though, and they varied from one navy to another and over the course of the ships' histories. As a rule of thumb, 74s would have carried 24-32 pounders on the lower gun deck, 18-24 pounders on the upper gun deck, and 6-12 pounders on the forecastle and quarterdecks, although these were often replaced by carronades once those came into use.

 

Cheers!

[Mark P]

Good Afternoon Kurtis;

 

You obviously have a talent for computer modelling, and it is a shame to see it being rather misdirected.

 

I would suggest that before you go any further you devote some hours to a search for pictures of 74 gun ships from the period you are aiming at. This is because there are a large number of unfortunate errors in your drawing. If this is just a drawing exercise for your own pleasure, or if you are intending it to be for gaming then this is not a problem at all. If, however, you genuinely wish to make a true representation of a specific or general type of vessel, I would recommend that you start looking now before you add any more details. Different countries had different styles of ships as well, so it might be worthwhile deciding on the nationality also. 

 

I appreciate that this is by no means a finished work, but much of what looks complete or nearly so needs considerable alteration; too many to try and explain them all.

 

Look for paintings by late 18th century artists, or modern book illustrations. Avoid pictures of modern models or computer-generated pictures, as you cannot be certain of exactly how accurate they are. 

 

Also take a good look at the National Maritime Museum's online collections, searching under ship models, and you will find much valuable information there. 

 

One final point: a frigate at this time was a single-decked ship with up to 38 guns or so. A 74 was generally referred to either as a 74, or more precisely as a 74-gun third-rate line-of-battle-ship, and was a vastly different creature.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Kurtis]

hi Mark;

 

Thank you for your observations.

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but informing me that there's many issues and not outlining even one of them doesn't really give me much to go on. I can look at and study pictures for the next decade and still be none-the-wiser as transcribing paintings and images onto my own model is easier said than done. I'm not aiming to build a like for like replicate of a real ship (well not this time anyway) like most of you would do with your wooden versions, I just wanted a 'likeness' if you like.

 

I haven't started this project not doing _any_ research on vessels of this kind. The base model I'm using is the Bellona from 1760  so I guess that sets your nationality, period and design (upon reflection of that, I hadn't realised it was comparitively so early!)

 

I've had to use a lot of guess work and take liberties because finding true photographic models is not straight forward and the blueprints left me confused (the balcony in the captain's cabin for example - I'm happy enough with the outcome but I appreciate it's not really 'historically accurate.') The only other major issue is the hand-rails/edges as they seem to have the swirly ends to them and figuring out how to replicate it has confused me a little, and I'm not too keen of that design anyway. The Wale needs more work as well as I don't think it was so low. Hull-wise, everything else as far as I'm reasonably aware is based off of the blueprint.

 

As I progress with the model, the blueprint becomes a very general guideline and other people's examples become higher priority. If there's glaring issues I'd like to know about them as I keep progress.

[Mark P]

Good Evening Kurtis;

 

I still advise you to devote some hours to study of models and pictures. The purpose of this is not to transcribe anything, but to compare the picture/model with what you have drawn, and look for differences. If something does not look the same, try to work out why. The 'Bellona' has an excellent series of photographs on the NMM collections website. Have you looked at these? Full colour, lots of different views, and a zoom function (although it never gets as big as would be really helpful) There is also at least one rigged model of a 74 shown. 

 

There is also a book by Brian Lavery, about the Bellona. You may already have this; if not, I would certainly recommend that you acquire a copy. This is one of the Conway Maritime Press 'Anatomy of the Ship' series, and is only available on the second-hand market, but many tidy copies exist. 

 

If you are not intending to create a fully-detailed likeness, then it is a matter of ensuring that the general impression does not look notably erroneous.

 

To help you, I will list what I see as the most obvious areas for improvement. If you do not know the parts referred to in the following description, try an internet search using the word, which will assist you in learning their meaning. Most of them will get many hits, I am sure. I will not list any missing items, as I will assume that you have not yet got round to adding these. The quarter galleries I will likewise assume are still a long way from completion.

 

To start at the stern:

 

1: The rudder should taper from top to bottom, and follows the taper of the sternpost. The top is approximately square. You have the top much too long in the fore and aft plane, and much too narrow in the thwartships plane.

 

2: The shape of the stern below the tuck is completely wrong. There should be a streamlined diminution so that the planking just forward of the sternpost is no wider than the sternpost. If the water cannot flow past the rudder in a smooth run, the rudder will have eddies on each side, and will not work well. The hull planking at the stern should also round upwards to meet the tuck, forming what is known as a 'round tuck', the technique used for almost all warship sterns at this period.

 

3: You show a sharply defined edge where the vertical plane of the side of the keel meets the hull planking. Whilst this is often correct in the midships area, and for some distance fore and aft, it did not happen at the stern, where the planking should fair smoothly into the keel.

 

4: You appear to have correctly picked up the main wale in the midships, but at the stern it should rise up much more, and meet the end of the tuck mould.

 

5: The line of the fife rail on the poop/roundhouse should continue in a smooth flowing curve all the way to the outer edges of the taffrail at the stern timbers/side counter timbers.

 

6: The run of the headrails is very wrong. They look like a fence, which they are not. The main rail should run up to meet the ends of the beakhead bulkhead, the middle rail terminates where it meets the bow planking, and the lower rail meets the bow planking in a manner similar to the middle rail, then sweeps aft and upwards to terminate in a supporting knee under the cat-head.

 

7: The cheeks are likewise very wrong, and should be much more 'L'-shaped in plan. The forward ends need to curve upwards following the forward edge of the knee of the head.

 

8: The knee of the head is much narrower thwartships at its foremost point than it is lower down, and near the top its foremost edge is noticeably rounded off.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

 

 

 

[Kurtis]

Okay, some updates.

Mark; I have tried to take your pointers onboard and make adjustments where I could. The majority of your complaints seem to be the general shape of the vessel so I've spent time trying to rejig it. I do have responses to your notes though first.

 

1. [ Remedied ] Rudder has been reshaped.
2. [ Remedied ] I have completely reshaped the rear of the hull (though I don't think you will see it that well in this particular image cos of the soft-lighting the software uses, but I'll post a wireframe and a render for closer inspection if necessary.)
3. [ Remedied ] I have to admit, I wasn't sure what you meant with this one, but I believe I've fixed it. The 'sharp edge' I think you speak of has been removed and the planking forms into the hull smoothly.
4. [ Remedied with Point ] I'm aware that the Wale moves up at the back of the ship (and to the front as well), but the keel and hull are two different pieces and the wale hides the seam between them. Call it artistic liberty.
5. [ Outstanding ] I do not understand what you mean. When I looked up what you meant by the fife-rail and taff-rails, they seem to point me to parts of the ship I haven't even modelled yet. Please clarify?
6. [ Remedied with Point ] The head-rails after much closer inspection to sources have been cleared out and rebuilt from the ground-up. The shape is most likely still not perfect, but it should reflect what many ships of this  time did with them and be a lot more accurate. They didn't feel right the first time around, and looking at my original image they're probably my most embarassing part! 😱
7. [ Outstanding ] I think I understand the gist of what you're saying (the shape of the 'cheeks' are wrong) but there's too many objects and other noise in the way to understand exactly how the 'cheek' is supposed to actually look. I'm not sure exactly what you mean with this one. . 
8. [ Outstanding ] Same as number 7.

To address your point about the Quarter Galleries; I'm not planning on doing a lot more work to them except minor shape adjustments where necessary and adding decorative elements. I'm not that unhappy with my progress with them (though I do see where they might conflict with reality!) I'll probably come back to the QG towards the end of this project.

 

I've started  to move on with the rest of the ship so I've began adding the forecastle rails. I'll probably finish the remainder of the fences coming up during the week. I'm hoping to start working on the stairways and topside pieces (such as bell and some of the rigging parts).

 

Here's hoping this is a much more satisfactory 'drawing.'

 

 

 

 

[malachy]

Off to a good start, it seems, bow is looking much better.

 

But if you really want a nice looking model, take Mark's advice and redo the stern area, especially the quarter galleries.

 

The hull goes all the way to the 'back' of the ship, the quarter galleries are just a nicely curved extension and not part of the hull structure.

The wales stop at the wing transom (your wt should be straight, by the way, the round wing transom on my model was a particularity of the naval architect who designed this ship).

 

 

Anyway, you've already made a fine looking model, happy blending!

 

[Kurtis]

Haha, it seems I'm a little outvoted with the Quarter Galleries! I'll try to have another go at them (it's  the sides that seem to have the most issues so I might work with what I have, I'll have to see). Like I say, I'm not that unhappy with how they are now, but I'll see if I can make something better with a second pass on them.

 

I'm intending to turn this into an animation, I'm not sure if I've already said this. I'm just hoping my shabby computer can handle it! I'll post more specific details if anyone is interested in such down the line.

 

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The wales stop at the wing transom (your wt should be straight, by the way, the round wing transom on my model was a particularity of the naval architect who designed this ship).

I know, but like I say the keel and the hull are two separate objects with a nasty seam between them (very different vertex counts, odd lining, etc), the Wale hides it perfectly (if you wish to see, I'll post a screenshot minus the wale so you can see what I mean). I know it's not historically accurate but I think it's one of those things to be accepted - most of it will be underwater anyway!

 

Quote

your wt should be straight, by the way, the round wing transom on my model was a particularity of the naval architect who designed this ship

What do you mean by the 'WT'? I can't work out what you mean with your screenshot

 

 

 

Speaking of your screenshots, I'm loving your model!

[malachy]

Thanks It´s far from being done, though.

 

 

A wireframe of your model would be nice, it´s easier to see problematic areas. Especially if you worry about polycount, most parts don´t need an excessive amount of triangles:

 

I try to emulate how the planks would have been on a real ship, much easier to texture and you usually get away with using less triangles and still have a relatively smooth hull.

 

Edit Oh, and 'wt' is 'wing transom'

 

[Kurtis]

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A wireframe of your model would be nice, it´s easier to see problematic areas.

Bear in mind  that my ship has up to 9 modifiers on 95% of the objects (arrays, curves, edgesharps, subsurfs, etc). I've disabled subsurf on most most of them and turned on wireframe for most visible objects (that way the model isn't littered with lines). Some of the objects will look a little disjointed though. Creating wireframes for my models is never easy, but I hope you like this one.

 

Quote

Especially if you worry about polycount, most parts don´t need an excessive amount of triangles:

I do try to keep my poly-count low, my workflow essentially prioritises creating the general shape, and then letting modifiers (and lattices in places in this example) to create the rest of the shape. There are setbacks to this approach, but I find there's not that many and can usually come up with other solutions!

 

 

 

[Mark P]

Good Evening Kurtis;

 

The cheeks are a lot better now, certainly. The overall impression is much improved. Still let down by the stern and the wale. Look at Malachy's and see if you can work out the difference.

 

If you can improve the stern, you will have a passable impression of a ship, which, if it is all you are wishing to achieve, is a good first step on the long road to self-improvement. If you are seriously going to involve yourself in this, I recommend that you keep a copy of this drawing safe, and look at it in 10 years; and 20 years; and 30 years. You will think: 'OMG! Did I really do that?!!'

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Kurtis]

hi Mark;

 

Like I say, the Wale is set there deliberately. I could make it look historically accurate but it's more work than it's worth for what I'm intending to use it for. I'm not ingoring you deliberately with this one, there's a reason it's like that. You're certainly right though, I've come back to models like this down the line and downright winced. I'm sure this one won't be any different!

 

The stern (well the Quarter Galleries) I'm gonna have another go at. Your word plus another member or two has convinced me it needs doing so I'm gonna have another pass at it, see if I can make something that looks a lot better.

 

I should say, thanks for your help though, you gave me a lot of insight in your last post!

[Kurtis]

I've updated the title of the thread to reflect the ship in use.  I have one enquiry about the Quarter Galleries.

 

As small, wing-like extensions of the stern, the quarter galleries were difficult to secure to the hull and in rough weather were sometimes torn from it completely.

[2] Quarter galleries were only ever fitted on vessels of war.

On Wikipedia, it says that they were sometimes torn from the vessel. Surely that's a dangerous idea for a warship? Battling the enemy in rough weather, then all of a sudden a quarter of the ship is suddenly in the sea. How often (if it really did) did that actually happen?

[mtaylor]

4 hours ago, Kurtis said:

On Wikipedia, it says that they were sometimes torn from the vessel. Surely that's a dangerous idea for a warship? Battling the enemy in rough weather, then all of a sudden a quarter of the ship is suddenly in the sea. How often (if it really did) did that actually happen?

True about being torn away but it wouldn't have a quarter of the ship.   I think the name has more to do with being attached to the officer's quarters, but that's my thought.   The hull planking went all the way to the stern.  A small doorway was cut for access (smaller than normal) and quarter gallery framing was added and then planked with "thinner" material than the hull planking.  

[Mark P]

Good Morning Kurtis;

 

No worries about whatever level of accuracy you stop at. This is your project, and only you know exactly when you will be at the result you need.

 

Re quarter galleries, this is no reference to their proportion of the ship, as Mark says above. The quarter is the term used to describe that particular area of the ship; in this case, the area adjoining the sharp angle where the stern meets the ship's side. It also give a direction. For example, a lookout hailing down to the deck to report sighting something, would shout: 'sail ho! Off the starboard quarter!' Thereby giving those on deck the direction in which it lay.

 

Don't take Wikipedia as gospel. They do have a lot of good information there; but the sailing Navy is too vast a subject for accurate detailed knowledge of it to be widespread, and I have seen more than a few errors in some articles. I corrected some, but not all of them.

 

Quarter galleries were occasionally damaged by heavy seas, but the complete loss of one was rare, and more likely to occur during a battle. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark 

[Kurtis]

Some new updates:

 

• I have binned the old quarter galleries and completely rebuilt them!
  • I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with the backplate, I'm deliberating with either just deleting it completely and trying again with it. Alternatively, just leave it there and decorate it. Right now it just feels sort of 'attached'
  • I want to work a ltitle more of the shape where it starts at the hull. I'm trying to decide whether to try to tweak the shape, or hide the transition with a bit of decoration or something (or both even)
• I've squared out the gun-ports; I managed to find a method of doing it that didn't depend on applying modifiers but I did need to redistribute the topology a little (wireframes here, I've had to leave all the subsurfs on though cos I've not rigged them yet for easy disable)
• I've started added the fences
  • I want to finish off the poop-deck and forecastle fences

Some images:

 

 

 

 

 

Minor Update:

I've done a little more tweaking to the quarter galleries at the back, I'm a bit happier with the current progress:

 

[Kurtis]

I'm hoping to start building the top-side stuff shortly, but I'm looking for blueprints.

 

Does anyone know where I can find them for the following items?:

• The steering wheel
• The cannons themselves (I'm also looking for information about how they were used; how the ropes were used, mounted, etc)
• The lanterns
• The bell

I have reference images for all of the above, but specifically I'd like to have the measurements if they're available.

[Kurtis]

I know it's only been a few days since my last post, but there's been some significant progress.

 

• Retopologised the gun-ports and squared them out correctly
• Guns ports have been installed (portside only for now, working on the other side as I speak)
  • They're rigged so that they can be opened at will
• Rear quarter galleries have had further tweaking and development
• I've readjusted the 'rear tansom' part of the ship, I'm hoping it now meets closer expectations (also hoping I've got the correct part of the vessel!)
• I've reshaped the center wall piece so that it now indents inwards; I figure it's a lot more interesting than a straight wall
• I've installed a simple galley chimney
• I've had to rebuild the rudder clamps shipside due to the reshaping, but they seem to look and feel better

On the whole, I'm starting to be very pleased with my current progress; it's beginning to feel like a proper ship of the line!

 

I've added 'auto-colors' in the software which shows each object individually. Downside is it makes the ship look like a squishy toy but it's not permanent.

 

Here's some new images:

[Jaager]

I do not know if this has been addressed, but I verified with AotS Bellona,  the quarter galleries are incorrect.

The sides do not extend to shield the sides of the balcony.  It is not a motel balcony where the rooms need visual isolation.

Perhaps some 16th c. and 17th c. had a square ended balcony.  When seen from above, it was likely an arc by the 18th c.

And no roof either.

The quarter galleries were mostly the senior officer crappers.  I seems that way to be anyway.

[Kurtis]

On 6/17/2020 at 7:20 PM, Jaager said:

I do not know if this has been addressed, but I verified with AotS Bellona,  the quarter galleries are incorrect.

The sides do not extend to shield the sides of the balcony.  It is not a motel balcony where the rooms need visual isolation.

Perhaps some 16th c. and 17th c. had a square ended balcony.  When seen from above, it was likely an arc by the 18th c.

And no roof either.

The quarter galleries were mostly the senior officer crappers.  I seems that way to be anyway.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

I've spent more time than I would've liked on the quarter galleries and just want to move on with the rest of the ship, but the Bellona was a base-mesh. It was used as a general guide but I'm certainly not constricting myself to it. That said, I wanted to build a balcony similar to what's found here:

 

[Kurtis]

I've modelled a '32 pounder' that'll sit on the bottom deck! I've nicknamed this 'the beast!'

 

 

The wall in the second photograph is temporary (the grass is just a photograph overlayed the model which is why it looks like it's floating as well). I'm aiming now to shrink the carriage and gun down to meet the size requirements for the middle deck. I'm trying to decide whether to shrink them down a third size for the top gun, or model a dedicated carronade for the top deck.

 

Looking at the ship plans, I'm not dreading them masts and sales as much as I was because it's mostly just reusing those tackles that I built for this cannon!

[Kurtis]

It's been a little while since I've posted on here; I'm still working on this ship but my time is being split between a handful of other projects at the same time so progress is a bit slow. My computer is also struggling to keep up with what I'm throwing at it so I dunno how much further I'll be able to push this model. I want to complete it but I may not be able to animate it until I can get a newer computer.

 

Here's a few renders of the ship from where she is now:

 

All the guns are rigged now so that they can be deployed and retracted and the ports open and shut at will. I'll steadily add more color as I go.

There's a few design choices I need to re-think (such as the doors) and I still have the list of things to work on otherwise.

[Kurtis]

I've done a lot more work in the last couple of weeks or so and have implemented a design. I'm pretty sure it'll be met with mixed reactions on here but if you have any (strong) opinions, let me know.

 

Modelling is not completed yet, I still have to do the channels and other small bits and pieces on the side, and obviously all the masts and sails need adding as well. Add the stairways and final fencelines and I think that should probably be it for modelling (unless I've overlooked something.)

 

Here's the latest render:

 

I'm aware that the Ship of the Lines around this time were generaly yellow/white, especially in the British Royal Navy. Still, I wanted to try to something a little different, I find the yellow theming a little too common.

[Kurtis]

I've spent a bit more time on the quarter galleries; arched out the end windows as they seemed quite common, tweaked out the shape a bit, and started added some decorative elements to it.

[Kurtis]

I know interest has dwained a little on this forum, but I have a question. Can someone explain to me what the part below circled is? I can't work out if it's supposed to be part of the ships rigging, or if it's just a support for the roof (as a model)?  I'm fairly certain all the other beams are just support cos you're not supposed to see them (being part "107" is supposed to sit on top)

 

[mtaylor]

From here, and not knowing which ship or nationality, it appears the part in question is the belaying pin rack at the base of the main mast.

[Kurtis]

Cheers MTaylor;

 

Yeah, the blueprint is still the Bellona, British I believe.

 

Are the beams behind the pin rack support structure? From what  I can make out it seems that it is, but there's a lot of parts there and the information sheet is very vague , I asked specifiically about the pin rack cos it looked detached from the walls and roof.

 

As for the ship itself, a couple of new renders:

 

I've switched out the color from the bright yellows to a more overall mute white (similar to Victory here). Seems to look a bit better in this case but I'm gonna also try for some better yellow for the quarter galleries and the lining at the front. I've also simplified the quarter galleries, I think it looks better as well rather than having all those painted pillars on it.

 

There's a lot of behind the scenes rigging with this, would anyone here be interested in knowing more about that? The gun-ports can all be controlled, and the cannons (when enabled) can be adjusted to a run-out or 'ready' position. Each port also has a little peeper window, though I don't think I've ever seen then before! I only realised they existed when I looked at real ships very close.

 

When I've finished this plus a handful of other projects and have some finances coming in, I'm gonna try again on a second ship I think. I'm not sure if it'll be another 74 (this has been good practice by all accounts!), but I might have a go at something. I've learned a lot about ships and ship-building just from this project alone so the next one should look a lot more correct to your guys eyes - at least it should have less of the shaping and other minor problems. It'd have to be a side project though, something to work on as and when, but it would mean I can try and follow 'realistic' stuff a lot more. I'm also thinking of visiting HMS Victory post Covid and taking photos and drawings (if they'll let me!)

 

[mtaylor]

The pin rail itself is on the "outside" opposite the mast.   Those are nice renderings.