cannon block question

[rtropp]

I am building the Corel Victory cross section 1:98. I've been practicing rigging the cannon.  The 3mm blocks that came with the model fall apart with the slightest pressure. (well, maybe not so slight.) I am using 2.5mm blocks from Syren Ship Company, which are really nice.

The issue is what size block to use. Those cannon were heavy so the big one makes some sense.  The small one looks nice but then the eye ring looks too big. 

So I figured I'd ask what you all think.  

Thanks,

Richard

By the way, these are my first practice attempts and hopefully the final ones will be better.

[Chuck]

Blocks would have been 8" long and at that scale they would be???   

 

3/32" long I believe.   

 

I know its challenging but I would also consider making the ring bolt smaller in the carriage.  That would help.  It looks to be about 8" round considering the block size in the photo.  Maybe try with thinner gauge wire.

 

Chuck

[Gregory]

3/32 = 2.38125mm

 

I get ~2mm for 8 inches..  2.5mm = ~9.6 inches.

[Chuck]

Yes but unless the eyebolts and hooks are smaller you cant use 2mm blocks.   Depending on the size of the cannon...you might be talking a 9" block as as well.  Which would be closer to 3/32".    3/32" would be fine at 2.5mm.

 

1/8" scale is a tough scale to work on.

[allanyed]

Richard,

I don't know where the cross section is on your model, but keep in mind the Victory had 32 pounders, 24 pounders, and 12 pounders, so there may be differences in the block sizes.   In addition, the 24 and 12 pounders would use pairs of single blocks where as the 32 pounders would use a double and single on each side of the carriage.  I agree with Chuck that the eyes are hugely out of scale and should be replaced.  Looking at carriage drawings in The History of English Sea Ordinance, the three eyes on each side of the carriage would be right at about 4 inches diameter for both the 24 and 32 pounders, slightly smaller for the 12 pounders.  The ring on each side for the breech line would be about 8' diameter.      I totally agree with Chuck, at this small scale, it is very difficult to make rings and such parts to scale.  The following is a carriage from a 24 pounder of about 1790, and might help a little.

Allan

 

[popeye2sea]

I would recommend a pair of round nose pliers.  The kind used for making jewelry.  With those you can make very convincing eyebolts down to about 1mm inside diameter using 28 ga. (or smaller) wire.  You can also employ the pliers to make hooks.

 

You can strop your blocks with thread instead of wire to bring them more into scale.

 

I used 2mm blocks for all of the cannon on my 1:100 Soleil Royale.  The eyebolts, ringbolts, and hooks were all made using only the pair of pliers.

 

Regards,

[Mark P]

Good Morning Gentlemen;

 

Just as a matter of caution, and for future reference, the ring-bolts shown in the drawing in Allan's post above look like ladies' earrings: very delicate and lightweight (no reflection on Allan; but whoever drew it appears to have been in error)

 

The contract for 'Warspite', 1755, one of the first 74s, states that on the gun-deck (which would be for the 32 pdrs) the ring bolts each side of the gun-ports are to have rings with an internal diameter of 5", and to be made of 1 3/8" diameter iron.

 

On the upper deck, for the 24 pdrs, as in the illustration, the rings are to be 4 3/4" internal diameter, and to be made of 1 1/8" diameter iron.

 

As a rough approximation both these indicate that the metal forming the ring is around one quarter of the size of the hole in the ring.

 

Which would look much more capable of restraining a 2 ton plus cannon on recoil. As these ring-bolts are for the breechings, as are the ones in the carriage cheeks, I would believe it a fair supposition that they should be the same.

 

See below a plate from Robertson's mathematical treatise of 1775: (yes, I agree, not the first place one would look for gunnery-related items, but a very good contemporary source, nonetheless)

 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[allanyed]

Thanks Mark, good catch !!!   I agree the rings look light.   Not sure who did the drawing but it is on page 378 in Volume II of  The History of English Sea Ordinance.   Drawings of earlier carriages in the same book show rings that appear to be a bit heavier so I have no idea if he was purposeful in showing the lighter weight rings or not.  

Allan

[Bossman]

Richard, as others have stated, it can be a bit fiddly. I use a pair of small round nosed pliers with one end filed down to a fine point. You can make very small hooks and rings with them. For hooks, I make the ring, then bend the it back on itself over the eye and snip to make the hook opening. Hope that helps. 

 

[MEDDO]

3 hours ago, Bossman said:

it can be a bit fiddly.

Holy smokes that is a small piece

[rtropp]

Thank you all for your help.  I believe my first priority is getting more comfortable with the smaller scale. I am getting better at working with the 3/32 blocks but now need to work on smaller rings. I have ordered wire gauges from 26 to 30.  I couldn't find 32 yet.  The wire working tools I bought from one of the hobby suppliers do not get down small enough.  If need be I can grind my own as suggested.  With the drawings and suggestions given I believe I can get a lot further along. Getting confirmation of the sizes to use will move me along nicely.  

 

I was having some difficulty with scaling but found software for my iPhone that automates the conversions.  It is called "Model Scaler" and really easy to use. 

 

While I am not ecstatic with the quality of the materials and instructions for the Victory Cross Section, I do want to rebuild my skills for my next, hopefully scratch, project.  

Again, thanks to all for the help.

Richard

[allanyed]

Richard,

You can buy 1/4 pound spools of copper wire down to 40 gage (0.003") at McMaster Carr.   For 32 gage (0.008), this is about  2000 foot and costs a little over $7 plus shipping.   https://www.mcmaster.com/copper-wire/mirror-like-multipurpose-110-copper-wire/  They have a number of types of wire available.

Allan 

[Seahawk1313]

Hi Richard,  For making I bolts, I mount a small length of brass wire ( .020) or slightly larger in a piece of dowel.  then bent the end into a slight  hook.  I  cut brass wire into 1 or 1 1/2 Lengths..  then loop the wire  over the the hook and turn the wire to make the eye with pliers or something similar .  I use 26 or 28 Gauge wire.  All my builds are 1/96.  I hope this is understandable- Hal

[RichardG]

You might find this thread useful 

 

[rtropp]

Allan, thanks for the link.

Seahawk, very understandable instructions. The hooks should be easier to fabricate now.

 

Richard, the thread was an eye opener.  

The build's instructions show rigging the wire around the block and then forming the hook in one piece.  But, everything I have seen here shows using "rope" around the block and the wire only for the hook itself.  You can see in my first picture at the start of the thread that I have been wrapping the wire around the block and continuing into forming the hook.  I did do some research but never noticed that the blocks were wrapped with rope. (new glasses are definitely in my future.)   So, I guess my decision is do I continue with the wire as per the instructions or use rope. I would like to practice the method I will be using if I ever get to a scratch build.  I have enough supplies coming from Syren to do either.  

What do you all think?

 

[allanyed]

Richard, choices of wire or rope have a lot to do with scale.   I have always stropped with rope as was really done, but if you get to tiny scales such as those built by Lloyd Mcaffery and Donald McNarry wire may be the best way to go.   McCaffery describes using nickel chromium wire for small diameters and brass wire for large diameters such as shrouds and stays.  I think small and large in this case are relative terms for sure.     He is specific about not using copper as it is too soft and pliable for lines that need to lie straight such as shrouds.   Keep in mind this is  for scales of  1:192 and smaller.  (1"= 16 feet)     He has built models at even smaller scales.   My eyes strain and start tearing just thinking about these scales

Allan

[rtropp]

Allan,

The Victory cross section I am working on is 1:98 so I will give thread a try.  I have some "rope" being delivered soon.  

Thanks

Richard