Help with ratlines and deadeyes

[Bill97]

HELP!  I am beginning my first ship build where I will need to make my own ratlines and the deadeye element at the bottom of the ratlines where you use 2 deadeyes to connect the ratlines to the channel on each side if the ship and up in the mast (whatever they are called). My instructions are very limited as far as telling me what to do. As a result I have done a lot of research on MSW to see what you guys do. There appears to be a number of different homemade jigs that some of you use to make both of these rigging items. A couple questions I can’t seem to figure out are: 1. Do you make separate ratlines for each side of mast (like the black plastic molded ones that come with kits) or do you make them as a pair connected at the top and run them up from one side through the mast top and then down to the channel on the opposite side? Hope this question makes since. Second question. My research seems to show that when you make the deadeyes for the ends of the ratlines to connect them to the channel it looks like some connect a deadeye to each ratlines thread and a corresponding one to the channel. Then lace them together through the 3 holes in the deadeyes pulling the ratlines snug. It also appears that others make the deadeyes as a separate part ahead of time with two deadeyes rigged together using a jig or mooring tool. I need advice and guidance. A while before I get to that part but want to begin learning and practicing. 

[VTHokiEE]

6 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Do you make separate ratlines for each side of mast (like the black plastic molded ones that come with kits) or do you make them as a pair connected at the top and run them up from one side through the mast top and then down to the channel on the opposite side?

Not typically - The easiest way is to make them in pairs but they loop around the mast and then back down to the same side. The next "loop" will go to the opposite side. (I think you mean shrouds, the ratlines are the small ropes that connect horizontally).

 

8 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

it looks like some connect a deadeye to each ratlines thread and a corresponding one to the channel. Then lace them together through the 3 holes in the deadeyes pulling the ratlines snug

This is what I did, to me it seems that connecting the deadeyes together off model and then attaching them on model would be trickier, but I've never done that.

[Bill97]

Thanks VTHookie. By the way I am guessing your name says you are a Virginia Tech fan?  I am a Univ of Louisville fan. Enjoy being in the same conference with you guys. But I digress. I guess I had the names of the lines reversed. I thought the ratlines were the vertical lines and the shrouds were the horizontal lines. So do I understand you to say that when you do the shrouds you take the total number needed for one side, divide it evenly if possible, and then run that number of lines up and loop around the mast and then back down to the same side. After tying the lines off to the deadeyes you then tie the ratlines through the shrouds? What do you do if you have an uneven number of shrouds?  It looks like one of my places has 3 shrouds on each side. VTHookie what technique do you use to make your deadeye pieces off model?

[VTHokiEE]

6 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

a Virginia Tech fan?

You guessed correctly 😁, a little bit of a rough season so far unfortunately.

 

7 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

VTHookie what technique do you use to make your deadeye pieces off model?

Here is how I tied them together on model (please note that you can do whatever works for you, this is simply an idea that worked for me) - https://modelshipworld.com/topic/22920-hm-cutter-alert-by-vthokiee-vanguard-models-164/?do=findComment&comment=769279

 

8 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

After tying the lines off to the deadeyes you then tie the ratlines through the shrouds?

Spot on there, if you look further in my log you can see that I printed off a sheet of lined paper to get the spacing that I desired and traced the shroud lines so that I had a template to work with for the ratines.

 

9 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

What do you do if you have an uneven number of shrouds?  It looks like one of my places has 3 shrouds on each side.

You would run a single shroud up, loop it, seize the loop off at the mast and then trim it so there is only one line coming back down. If you want to get into historical accuracy you'll have to find a rigging plan for your model to determine which line was a single and which were doubles (for my model I am using an Anatomy of the Ship book).

 

Hope that helps!

[Justin P.]

18 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

What do you do if you have an uneven number of shrouds?

There are a few solutions for the odd numbered shroud, the only common thing being that the odd one goes aft and is the last one rigged, with the port side being the final.  Typically the first two are starboard (2), then port (2), then starboard, then port.   This being only one way to do it, I think the very best thing you can do to answer these questions is buy a book or two on the subject.   It can be difficult to get a clear picture of some of the more complex rigging structures by weeding through build logs.   Not only are the structures a bit puzzling, but details can get even more complex depending on how "accurate" you want to be.   

 

My best recommendation would be: 

Historic Ship Models - Wolfram Mondfeld

 

For actually completing these steps, then yes the build logs can help.  There are a lot of ways people work these things out, Ive tried many of them - on one model I must have rigged shrouds a dozen or more times until I figured out which technique worked for me.   Getting those deadeyes taught, of level distance along the channel and not twisting all over took a lot of patience - not mentioning how to get them seized onto the shroud where I wanted them, etc. etc.   

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Justin P.

[trippwj]

The shrouds actually are not looped around the mast and down in "real" practice but rather have a loop at the top which slips over the masthead as in the drawing below (from Peterson)

 

 

In the example above, each is a doube shroud with a seized "eye" at the top. In many cases, there is only a single shroud (that is, it terminates in a loop at the top and a deadeye at the bottom). Gets confusing, huh?

 

Each shroud goes to a deadeye as shown below:

 

 

Doing it this way allows each shroud (which hold mast vertical) for appropriate tension. Looping down not only requires an even number of shrouds as you noted but also could create unequal tension resulting in the model mast shifting.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by trippwj

[VTHokiEE]

26 minutes ago, trippwj said:

The shrouds actually are not looped around the mast and down in "real" practice but rather have a loop at the top which slips over the masthead as in the drawing below (from Peterson)

Great picture - this is exactly what I meant, but possibly not exactly how I explained it 😬.

[Bill97]

Thanks Trippwi. That appears to be a good way as well and makes since. I have seen the paper clip technique on this blog but wondered if it caused a problem trying to get through the hole that had the clip in it when rigging the deadeyes?  I have the Heller 1/100 HMS Victory on my list and watching the open box review on YouTube I see it comes with a jig to make the ratlines/shrouds units off the model. Does this idea work well or is it better to rig them in the ship?

[Gregory]

38 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

...wondered if it caused a problem trying to get through the hole that had the clip in it when rigging the deadeyes?  

The clip is to set the spacing between the deadeyes while you adjust the length of the shrouds.  

Once that is done, you remove the clip and rig the lanyards between the deadeys..

 

 

[Bill97]

Ok Gregory thanks. So the paper clip technique would not work if I decided to make the deadeye parts in advance off the ship because I would not be tying them to the channel or shrouds yet, right?  Again I am getting educated here. As Justin said above it may be an advantage for me to purchase a book. 

[trippwj]

2 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Ok Gregory thanks. So the paper clip technique would not work if I decided to make the deadeye parts in advance off the ship because I would not be tying them to the channel or shrouds yet, right?  Again I am getting educated here. As Justin said above it may be an advantage for me to purchase a book. 

The advantage to rigging on the model is that you can adjust the tension as necessary. If you are off in your measurement rigging off the model you need to retension when you install and, with the ratlines already strung that is extremely labor intensive.

 

The tying of all those ratlines is for many one of the more tedious activities. Once the shouds are installed and appropriately tensioned on the model it is just a matter of tying off a whole bunch of clove hitches at appropriate distance to put on the rats.

 

You can use the paperclip method on or off the model as it is just to establish the spacing.

 

There are many books that can be of use - zu Mondfeld is a good choice.

 

Is HMS Victory your first model?

[Seahawk1313]

Remember the shroud length increases as they go aft ( mast head to deadeye ).  I think it is harder to get the deadeyes even, rigging off the model. - Hal 

[Bill97]

Oh no Trippwj the HMS Victory is a planned future build. I have the Revell USS Constitution, the Revell Cutty Sark, the Revell English Man O War completed and my current build of the Trumpeter Mayflower. The Airfix Wasa, Airfix Golden Hind, and the Heller HMS Victory are in my stash for future builds. None I have done yet had me build the ratlines/shrouds and the deadeye elements. 

[KurtH]

I have installed all the shroud pairs on the mast heads and am about to install deadeyes at their ends and rig the lanyards.  Is there a tried and true method for preventing the deadeye from rotating horizontally as the shroud is tightened, or does one depend on the sheer pole to control that?

[Gregory]

9 hours ago, KHauptfuehrer said:

preventing the deadeye from rotating horizontally as the shroud is tightened,

You do not want them to be tight enough for that to happen.

 

In fact, you would want your lanyards to be rigged before you seize up the shrouds, and use the lanyards for final tensioning.

 

There is a lot of backward and forward adjustment to be done, while not letting your deadeye spacing get out of whack..

 

In the end, the shrouds  would still have a very, very small amount of play in them..

[allanyed]

Bill,

 

You had asked about books on rigging.  My suggestion is volume four of The Fully Framed Model as it deals with rigging a model.  There are several books on contemporary rigging of actual ships that I use a lot, but these do not give the "how to" information you are seeking.  

 

Allan

[KurtH]

Thanks Gregory, I will definitely keep this info in mind.

[amateur]

You can also check a few logs that show the rigging process very extensively.

hms vulture of dan y vadas of young america of Ed Tosti show quite a lot of how to's when it comes to rigging.

 

From own experience: the paperclipmethod does only work when the shroulds do not have very different angles. In my build I discovered that the angle of the aft shrould was so much different from the foremkstone, that using a fixed distance between the deadeyes had as result that the upper row was nor parallel to the lower row. The trickwith the pins and the cardboard did better for me.

Or use a piece of wood, as shown in a parallel thread on the same subject:

 

Jan

Edited December 12, 2020 by amateur

[Bill97]

Amateur the piece of wood idea in the picture looks interesting. Not seen that before. What is the process in that technique?

[bartley]

This is Ed Tosti's technique described in his Young America log and, as Amateur points out, it is the only way to go when the angle of the shroud changes radically. The "paperclip method will make line of the deadeyes trend donward.

 

John

Edited December 13, 2020 by bartley